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member
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OP
member
Joined: Jun 2004
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Please forgive the length of this. Like many posters I loved DD and have felt rather let down by BD. This is an attempt to first put it into perspective and then make an attempt at positive suggestions. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Hi all,
Like many others who've bought BD I've been somewhat disappointed with the game. Few, if any, of the changes from DD seem to be improvements. Frankly, compared to the feast that was DD this tastes like warmed up left overs. But perhaps, this is exactly what it is - a chance to try out some of the ideas that were rejected for DD? Larian have stressed that BD is not to be seen as DD2. I just hope that they are prepared to ditch some of the experiments that don't seem to have worked.
OK, it's easy to be critical, but I would certainly agree with many of the complaints I've seen here. The main voice-over for the game is a terrible mismatch; the skill system feels clumsy and unfriendly; the battlefields seem nothing more than an excuse to pad the game out with dreary repetitive auto-generated dross; the bug situation is embarrassing, and there are some seriously dull sections in the game. But how could it be improved?
It seems to me that the biggest fault with BD is the way it begins. Act 1 is a flop in many regards and it simply gets the game off on the wrong foot. It's common practice when writing books, plays, or indeed any other piece of writing to re-write the all-important beginning in the later stages of production. Indeed, the beginning is often the last thing that's written. Most work starts with a sort of 'place holder' beginning which is later replaced with something that has the right degree of pizazz and quality to set the mood and grab the interest.
BD feels like the re-write never happened. The opening dungeon scene has hackneyed and uninteresting artwork ("Oh gosh - yet another bloody dungeon with lots of overdone red lighting! Wow! Not."). The opening 'find and solve' stuff seems flat and unengaging. And the first time the Death Knight speaks is extraordinarily jarring and inappropriate. Perhaps the folks at Larian (not having English as a first language) didn't realise just how bad that first speech sounds? I read here that the demo had an even worse voice, but you can't praise someone for taking away a plate of bad fish if they only replace it with a rotten egg! The chance to set up a mood of anticipation, intrigue or excitement at the start of BD was blown on all fronts.
Unfortunately, an unimpressive start is then followed up with a pretty poor series of dull dungeons, ridiculous lever 'puzzles', and flat uninspiring quests and story elements. It can't seem to make its mind up whether it wants to be scary, funny, intriguing or suspenseful and so ends up being none of them.
So I escaped to the battlefields for a bit of light relief, and find..... miles of tedious repetitive boredom and .... Bugs, bugs and more bugs. (Deleted - LONG paragraph detailing numerous bugs) Ugh.... Woeful stuff.....
Fortunately, the whole game lifts tremendously in Act 2 - to the degree that it feels as if it was done by a completely different team (was it?). At last, there's some open play, engaging quests and characters, and even the Death Knight has settled into a sort of grumpy bad joke and the grating tone of his early efforts has worn off somewhat.
Please Larian, for future games:
Do try and give us original and interesting beginnings (the whole of BD Act 1 could be wiped with no real loss), please give us back the DD skills system, and please get rid of those dull generic battlefields (or at least give them a major rethink).
Obviously, please no more repeats of the poor work with the bugs, or the bad lead character stuff up. The whole good guy/evil guy thing wasn't very well done from the scripting or the acting point of view. Neither the writer or the actor seemed to be able to make their mind up just what sort of tone they were trying to set with the Death Knight.
And please give us more of the variety and beauty of all the different DD location settings and less dreary dungeons and burnt out wasteland type scenery.
Above all, could we please have games that give us more of what made DD1 so delightful.
BD has the unfortunate feel of a 'business plan' filler rather than a mainstream effort. In other words it feels like something that was cobbled together to keep the cash flow going while the work continued on the main effort - Divine Divinity 2. Judged that way, I guess it's not too bad - certainly I've felt more ripped off by other games that promised more and delivered less.
But, please Larian, stick with your winning formula of Divine Divinity for DD2.
Apologies if some of these comments sound arrogant but, at 57, I feel that I've have had a fair bit of experience in judging what works and what doesn't. I've been playing computer games for over 20 years, and have also written professionally for live theatre. So I do sympathise with the difficulties involved in getting all the elements to work well together. And I do wish Larian well, and sincerely hope that they can learn from what didn't work well in BD. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Dec 2003
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I agree with most of what Hakea had to say. I just finished BD, and I was happy with it, but I did not think that it was as good as DD. I am certainly glad that I bought it, and definitely think that the time I spent on it was well spent. However, here are a few of my suggestions for D2. Make the first dungeon shorter and with less killing. For those of us who have played an rpg before which is pretty much everyone, the first dungeon in both DD and especially BD were way too long. Use more color. I got sick of seeing nothing but brown and gray in BD, I longed for the colors of DD. Get rid of the different acts. It ticked me off to accidently move on to a different act with quests unsolved. Just get rid of the acts all together and make the game completely open. Make very few pulling lever puzzles, a couple is fine, but they get annoying fast. Put in a big city. Large cities are great for having a variety of quests and interesting characters, plus they make for interesting home bases. Put in a game or two into the bars. A game of checkers or chess or darts, or poker, in which you can earn some extra cash would be nice. They did a good job of this in quest for glory 5. A nice knife throwing game. Limit money somewhat. That way the merchants can still have a nice variety, but it won't be possible to buy 1000 healing potions. Make merchants more specialized. Make one weaponsmith good at making swords and another specialize in hammers, etc. Make one sell magical equipement and another heavy armor. Allow mages to wear decent armor. Generally mages need armor more anyway so why not make some sweet armor that needs high intelligence to use instead of just strength. Make battlefields unneccessary and more fun. I beat the game at level 33 and needed the battlefields just too level up enough. Don't kill everyone off. What is the deal with all the characters dying in these games. Finally, is a love interest possible. That could spice things up a bit.
All of that being said I thought that the game was still well done, and I hope that you keep the skill system, I actually liked it.
Wouldn't it be better to pay doctors when we are healthy?
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Mar 2004
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Hakea, may I draw your attention towards the 'Simple suggestions for voice acting' thread below this ones as I (one of the writers) have been talking a bit about the writing process involved and it seems silly to do the same thing in two threads.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Apr 2003
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Am I wrong, or does the third previous post , have DAD written all over it?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
[color:"#33cc3"] Jurak'sRunDownShack!Third Member of Off-Topic Posters Defender of the [color:"green"]PIF. [/color] Das Grosse Grüne Ogre!!! [/color]
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: May 2003
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Your wrong. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
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member
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OP
member
Joined: Jun 2004
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Am I wrong, or does the third previous post , have DAD written all over it?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Hey - low blow! Not everybody wants all their previous luggage dragged into what they do. Whoops, that should say "baggage" not "Luggage". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" /> (Sorry if that's obscure, but I think Jurak will know what "The Luggage" is and where it comes from.... )
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: May 2003
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luggage?
the creature with tons of legs? or no?
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Apr 2003
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OK.....sorry.....i think <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
[color:"#33cc3"] Jurak'sRunDownShack!Third Member of Off-Topic Posters Defender of the [color:"green"]PIF. [/color] Das Grosse Grüne Ogre!!! [/color]
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Apr 2003
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it will be refreshing to say the least! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
sorry about the double-header....
and....ummmm.... welcome to the forum <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
Last edited by Jurak; 18/06/04 04:06 AM.
[color:"#33cc3"] Jurak'sRunDownShack!Third Member of Off-Topic Posters Defender of the [color:"green"]PIF. [/color] Das Grosse Grüne Ogre!!! [/color]
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member
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OP
member
Joined: Jun 2004
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luggage?
the creature with tons of legs? or no? That's the one. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> I think it crops up in several of TP's books, but I haven't read all of them. I imagine RP gets a little tired of having TP dragged into conversations ... A bit like Basil Fawlty and his "Don't mention the war...." line. "Don't mention TP..... " - but like Basil, we blew it again... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: May 2003
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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
tell Rincewind <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" /> yes RP probably does get tired of them.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Mar 2004
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Am I wrong, or does the third previous post, have DAD written all over it?? Not entirely sure what you mean. The third previous post (by me) was merely directing people to another thread where I was talking about the same writing issues mentioned in this one. yes RP probably does get tired of them. You know, I didn't really mind until I did this game. Now some people really seem to have no concept of actually *thinking* what it's like for me to read some of these posts before they actually post them!
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member
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OP
member
Joined: Jun 2004
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You know, I didn't really mind until I did this game. Now some people really seem to have no concept of actually *thinking* what it's like for me to read some of these posts before they actually post them!
I hope that my comments above have not added to that feeling. They were meant entirely in a respectful and affectionate manner. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I also hope that I’d have some sensitive to the issue. When I was young I was in a slightly similar situation as my extended family were locally 'famous'. Not in a celebrity sense, but because they were very well known in a social and business way. They all lived in large venerable old houses, and between them owned a reasonable chunk of the surrounding countryside (in a couple of villages in south Oxfordshire). It was impossible escape being A’s son, B’s grandson, C’s nephew, etc. All very handy in many ways, but there were times when I’d would have liked to turn it off and just be me, as it were. When I came to live in Australia there was a delightful freedom in being just another penniless nobody, with no baggage attached to my name. And 30 years later, I’m pleased to say that I’ve successfully managed to retain my penniless nobody status. (Actually that’s not quite true, I’m quite well off now – but any brushes with fame or even notoriety have been exceedingly fleeting!! All of which suits me well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> ). All the best with your writing career. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2003
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Please forgive the length of this. What if I wouldn't ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> (Sorry, couldn't resist. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> ) By the way, Hakea, that's my style of joking. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> Don't worry. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it. --Dilbert cartoon
"Interplay.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: May 2003
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Now some people really seem to have no concept of actually *thinking* what it's like for me to read some of these posts before they actually post them! --------
I hope I didn't contribute to this either.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Apr 2003
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No not you Leather-girl <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> i was referring to Hakea, who I might have mistakenly thought to be sombody else....but i could be wrong... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
[color:"#33cc3"] Jurak'sRunDownShack!Third Member of Off-Topic Posters Defender of the [color:"green"]PIF. [/color] Das Grosse Grüne Ogre!!! [/color]
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jun 2004
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dd has a waaaay beter start but one thing the game feels locked i mean that u cant move the god viev unles u hold a buton = bad. and u cant move on the mini map thats a good bonus in bd. and she sems stif and so other way dd is a beter game <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
LET THE DRAGON RIDE THE WINDS OF THE WORLD ONCE AGAIN "THE WHEEL OF TIME"
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jun 2003
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Wha? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: May 2003
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member
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member
Joined: Jun 2004
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I found DD alot better than BD also in the surroundings and I missed slaying orcs!
//Inel.
Don't play  when you have a mushroom phobia! o.O xD
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