Larian Studios Forums Beyond Divinity (English) General Boy, that was fun! Purchased and returned.

Well, I finally took the plunge and purchased Beyond Divinity at its outrageous $50 DSRP price tag, and fortunately, I was able to return the game to the store. The store owner commented that all of his customers that purchased Beyond Divinity were returning their purchases as well. Why?

Starforce Purchase Prevention!

After doing some research, I found that Starforce, especially the latest version, causes many problems on NT/2000/XP systems including but not limited to constantly random reboots. These problems have pushed indie programmers to develop software that removes Starforce from a system completely. What's neat is that the removal software is called Starforce Cleaner, which enforces the view of the people in the disc storage and duplication industry that Starforce is like a computer virus.

While many active Larian forum members have not suffered the same issues, many Larian customers have, and like many of them, I've sworn never to buy any product that assumes I'm a criminal.

Unfortunately, I'll never be able to play Beyond Divinity unless Larian wises up and removes (or replaces) the Starforce Purchase Prevention scheme. I thought the game looked like a lot of fun from its screenshots... oh well...

you know if starforce doesn't work with your system you can request a key thet skips the cd check by mailing to support@larian.com .



You mean to tell me that a majority must suffer copy protections because a minority copies games.[sarcasm] OMG stop the presses that never happens in the world.[/sarcasm]. In the real world it's always the majority that pays for the actions of the few.

So when yougo into a bank that fims you. You won't be depositing money in that bank because it assumes your a criminal.

or even walk the streets....in some places. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />
or go to the store...
or get gas.....
or buy anything....anywhere.
might as well just get a cave somewhere, and wait for it all to be over. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" />



yeah sure...

Or drive down the rode.

road.......as in......which [color:"yellow"] road [/color] is this thread going to take? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

a bad one?

Adreaus, do you have a link to some of that information? I'm wondering if that's why it won't run on the laptop.

Starforce can damage your computer
StarForce: Copy protection or scumware? - Installs hidden devices
I am not happy about this! (More links within)






Also, search the forums of Club CD Freaks, Alcohol Software, CloneCD, etc. Providing links without coffee with no sleep is a lot of work...

"outrageous"? This is the normal price for a new game.


Riiiight...

Alright, there already several threads about Starforce in almost every part of the forum.

I am not saying it's true, but it's if like everyone suddently decided that whining about DK's voice is getting old so they all decided to complain about Starforce instead...
Remember: last week there was none of those threads!

guys, there is no reason to jump all over the poster - if what he's saying happened to him, that's all that truly matters.
is there exaggeration ("...all...")? probably, but that doesn't mean he's not frustrated.
remember when they went to patch (i think 1.42) and all those hours had to be replayed 'cause it introduced a bug??? i was pretty PO'ed too.
we've all (probably) had issues with a piece of software or hardware - it's not fun and definitely puts you into a bad mood.
morbo, thanks for posting the info about the cd key and larian's ability to help. that is the kind of info he needs.
we all know this is a very good game, but let's not jump down people's throat because they have objections - especially when they are legitimate. just look at all the people having crashes to desktop, memory not being released, etc. there ARE some issues here, so let's focus on the workarounds.
problems don't mean it's not a good game. but a good game doesn't mean there aren't problems. they can co-exist.
adraeus, take morbo's advice and contact larian. trust me, the game is worth the effort.

okay, rant over. thanks for listening.

Actually if you read the links, Starforce was offering assistance. The poster was ignoring the offer of help. Seems like they should give Starforce the chance to fix the problem before complaining.

That's why I don't smoke, don't drink alcohol ...

1. $50 for a game that uses potential spyware for copy-protection is outrageous.
2. There are no exaggerated claims in my initial message.
3. It's obvious why I'm "refusing" help. Read the title of the thread.

By the way, I expected people to jump all over me. That's okay. They're just defending a product they like and I completely understand that, but they need to research StarForce, and I've provided enough links to provide direction to thought.

You're right. They should never have released this in it's current state. Starfoce technical support running around all the forums offering to undo the damage they've cause, hardly makes up for it. But these people can do no wrong according to some... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shhh.gif" alt="" />

It pretty much does what the Netsky (and variants) virus does, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />

Mate, I posted that article in the general forum. I know what I am talking about.
Yet, as I said earlier, you successfully returned the product so IMHO you have nothing to complain about.

1. $50 for a game that uses potential spyware for copy-protection is outrageous.
----------
Oh, so $40 isn't?

"Star-Force copy protection installs hidden drivers. The drivers can be shown when selecting 'hidden devices' in the device manager of Windows XP. Installed drivers are: 'Starforce Protection Enviroment Driver v5', 'Starforce Protection Helper Driver', 'Starforce Protection Helper Driver v2', 'Starforce Protection Synchronizer v1'. All these drivers are installed when you install a game that is Starforce protected. (A list of games can be found here)."

Fact is this is true, check it yourself.


To re-iterate what Adraeus quoted:

"I come to this conclusion since theres no telling what exactly these "drivers" might be doing in addition to validating a game installation, and preventing you from making a backup. They could be collecting data on your computing activities and sending them back to the company so they can inform the authorities of (what they consider to be) any inappropriate backing up of CDsDVDs. They could be monitoring the websites you visit. Who knows? We all know the power that can be contained in just a few K of code, having been through Sasser and other recent virus attacks, and this code is no exception."

Instead of bashing Adraeus just read the articles. You come into a thread and take shots at the poster, yet you dont even take the time to read through the links he is posting, thats pretty naive.

Incorrect. As a stakeholder, I am right to provide feedback.

By the way, do you understand that many people read reviews of products before they purchase them? They do, and Amazon.com is proof of that. Initially, I came to this community to see what it was all about and to read any reviews--good and bad. Generally, this is a good idea (unless it's a JoWooD forum). Providing feedback on a game or on any aspect of a game (e.g., Beyond Divinity's StarForce Purchase Prevention) is a consumer responsibility.

I was *not* joking. Here in Germany the things are that people taking drugs are considered as criminals (at least from the side of politics and law), but on the other hand, although it is proved that alcohol is a kind of drug, too, they don't do anything. The Bavarian Oktoberfest is the best example for that. Although the dmage costs produced by people under the influence of alcohol goes into the millions !

And people who smoke tabacco are currently criminated as well : They are more & more considered as simple polluters making non-smokers ill. Criminals, in short, because the smoke is harming people (German term of law : "Körperverletzung"). I've seen non-smokers arguing that polluting smoke harms people in general as if someone would hurt people by will. So he is a criminal.

I won't drink alcohol (with the small exception of Bailey's), and won't smoke tabacco - but mainly simply because I don't like it. I could say that users of these "drugs" are to be consideredaas criminals, and as a consequence I could sop buy alcohol and tabacco because of this reason.

So, I could start a new thread called "Boy that was fun : Purchased and returned !" describing how I bought a bottle of beer and a cigarette und returned it later.

<mispost>

Look I don't get the comotion over the CP. Not buying a game you like because of CP is like saying.

I will punish my wife by castrating myself.

This whole discussion makes no scence to me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I think the point they're trying to get across is that Starforce is completely unstable, and can cause damage to your system. When you bear that in mind, you might be inclined to skip these games. I for one, would rather have a working machine than play a game I really want.

Ohh that stuff. i format my pc every 9 months so no problem here. (T - 9 days till next format)

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" /> Uh, damn. He got us. Given the fact that the decision of the copy protection was the one of our publisher and only we Larians collect this data for "help" reasons it all makes sense suddenly, right? At the end it is very important for a belgian game company to find out how many porn sites their gamers visit (to create more realistic whorehouses in our RPGs for instance) and to report CD-Key abuse to american authorities (we have to, because afaik belgian authorities are rather lax on this matter, or am I wrong here, Lynn?).
Actually it's time to admit that we are not really getting Money from our publisher for selling the game but for all the precious user data which they sell then to microsoft. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" />
Unfortunately it runs too stable on the mayority of systems so we had to introduce with every new patch more bugs to get as many of you as we can.
What you didn't find out is that Starforce also installed our brandnew rendering pipeline on your machine. In fact all cutscenes for our new games are computed in the background of every <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> computer with internet connection. Cool, isn't it? Saves a lot of money too... And you guys always wondered in vain why your PC is so slow suddenly, don't you? We thought we were smart. All except you fell for those sneaky things. A pity we couldn't fool you too...
TRUST NO ONE! THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/alien.gif" alt="" />

(There was a peek once about our struggeling with the copy protection. For the full range of data you might want to read that as well. Again this decision was not ours so it is in vain to debate about it. We only try to fix it at the best of our abilities.)

Glad to know I was right thinking "StarForks" wasn't Larian's idea.

Sry to bring this thread back up, but I dont understand the point of your post, its not Larian that collects the info, its starforce, and the company that owns it.

@ Marian

The only fix is to remove it. Whether that's beyond your abilities or not, it is the only proper solution. This is causing havoc on forums all over the internet, and isn't something you should want to be associated with.

i'm afraid what's done is done for this case. whatever larians may do to rectify this matter won't help much for the buyers who have the impression that the developers are at fault for using such dubious program for cd protection.

the best advice for those who are unhappy with the game; feel free to return it & get your refund. do let larians know of your experiences with the game in general. they're not above taking criticism. in fact, they're very humble. i believe starforce is a poor choice by the publisher(s).

it may help for those who have problems with the cd protection to lodge their complaints at the publisher's forum or e-mail them.

& for the rest who have no problem with the cd protection, do count your blessings as u don't have to go through the frustrations that the unfortunate gamers experienced.

for your info, i have yet to receive my copy of <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> & all these complaints taint a bit of my anticipation. i really hope i won't have to go through such hellish times getting the game to work. worst comes to worst; i may have to circumvent the protection.

thanks to all for making your points, sharing your experiences & info.

please give larians time to sort out the problems.

What problems? Rectify what?

- Our game has still not been released in the illegal scene (no matter what other people may say).

- Our sourcecode is protected (cause Starforce isn't just about "copy protection").

"Rectifying" this would mean hacking away at our own backs with double-bladed axes (not to mention having to release a "fix" of hundreds of megabytes). "Yeah, let's crack our own game." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

People having hardware problems will always be looking for a scapegoat, and the easy target seems to be the "very evil" Starforce. ("Ooh, it won't let me make totally legal copies of the game. Ooh, I had to buy this game. Ooh, it sends all kinds of info to Mickeysoft. Oh wait.")

I'm sorry, but I'm very skeptical when it comes to people claiming their computer doesn't work properly anymore "ever since Starforce was installed". Yes, there is the odd CD-rom player that Starforce does not support, but then still, the Starforce drivers do not render the computer or the drive defunct. Are you always in this much agony whenever you install graphics card drivers? I think those can be much more dangerous...

People who want to make a backup copy: well why don't you. You can install the game from your copied discs. You just have to pop in Disc Two whenever you feel like playing, and I'm sure this won't "wear out" the CD (the disc doesn't even have to be in there all the time, from the moment you see the intro movie, you can safely remove it and put it back in the vault if you wish). I remember when they introduced Compact Discs to the broad public, and one of the arguments they used was that one such CD would last a lifetime...

ok, maybe it's possible to wear out a CD, but c'mon then the CD is of a bad quality or you REALLY used it 'too' much (which shouldn't happen this way)

man o man, where are the good old cartridges from the old days that you had to stick into a sega... I don't think those will ever wear out (given ou don't stick it in and out like 10 times a day)

I totally agree with ForkTong here, there is nothing wrong with protecting games from being copied, it's the only way the developpers/distributors will gain on revenues again and thus the price will drop again.

Actually, if you bothered to read a few forums, you'd see that people are avoiding starforce games, even on the illegal scene.

Sounds like starforce is sh1t to me, when people won't even accept an "Unofficial" copy. It's not just that either. People are complaining about invasion of privacy, and the underhanded way it installs behind the scenes. And as you've pointed out, it hasn't been cracked, so all these are legitimate owners of this (and your) software.



How can say this is beyond me. How the hell do you what Starforce does to systems? All the creators of starforce combined isn't fully aware of the effect it's having. I find you're attitude very distasteful towards the buyuing public. Perhaps your time would be better spent on getting your own software right the first time, as opposed to releasing patches.

That's funny. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Actually I found the cracked "Deutsch" version after a 30 second search. Haven't seen the english version yet, but this isn't a very popular game and I'm not "looking" for it, could probably get it off some forums I know of quickly.

I'd post a link to the torrent site for proof but I'm sure that would get me in trouble. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />



nova

hello forktong,

when i mentioned give time for larins to sort out the problems, i meant that that u will look into the problems occured when playing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> & determine the next course of action, especially for future games.

i didn't mean for u to feel bitter but u don't have to be defensive about all of these, u know. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Kind of strange worrying about copy protection on a game. Companies have a right to protect their products from being pirated. The majority of all software installs some kind of drivers on your PC without your knowledge. With all the additional items including servers, that the M word installs I find it hard to understand how anyone using a Windows product could complain about a copy protection program.

I believe the need for copy protection will be eliminated about the same time there is peace on earth (I am not holding my breath for either). I am sorry we all live in a world that has a need for companies like Star Force and virus protection software.

If your worried about information transfer you should be running a firewall (Zone Alarm has a free version), and avoid the majority of the sites on the web.

You can use a driver removal tool after you finish the game to eliminate the drivers that were installed if they are causing you problems.

If everyone invested half as much time in preventing illegal copies as they do complaining about the software used to prevent them, the need for the software would be eliminated (just my opinion).

You're funny <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

That is just a copy of BD that does not work. You won't be able to play that version since the protection has not been cracked on that one.


And xAcex, people that don't want the illegal version of a starforce game? What in hell are you talking about... There is a difference between "to want" and "able to get".

Just like Beyond Divinity there are other starforce games not released in the scene yet. These are Kill.Switch and Toca 2.

On a sidenote, a lot of people bitch on "warez" forums about starforce and how hard it is to crack. There are people even saying to go buy a starforce game in the shop, not do anything with it and go back an hour later to say "I can't get it to work, must be the copy protection or something."

That's just sick, and xAcex, I wonder if you're a part of that, if you can't accept that a company like Larian is trying to defend itself from illegal activities because the law can't really help out, by being illegal (if you want to call it like that) themselves in order to stay alive.

I'm sick and tired of people going all nuts because their "rights" are somewhat hindered in a very small way. But then again they don't care at all about the people that want to prevent their work from spreading for free on the internet.

Ya, I'm sure there's 30+ people seeding something that doesn't work. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

If you're thinking of the same thing as me, you can trace the file back to the "home page" and check the comments there. It works, or there's a whole bunch of liars claiming it does.

I'm sorry but if people on P2P networks (like kazaa, and other crap) having the game is your strong argument than there is nothing I need to add.

There is not one group that released it. I can search on Kazaa and probably find everything. But if it's really that and if it will work is something totally different. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

If you are so sure, please provide me with the release .nfo accompanying it.

I found an NFO file but I see no reason to post here, on the official boards.
I think there's nothing left to discuss.

Actually, if you bothered to read a few forums, you'd see that people are avoiding starforce games, even on the illegal scene.
-----

Isn't that a good thing if the illegal people are avoiding it? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Lews: it's not good if people who buy the game are experiencing problems. I don't, though.

So many warez of Sacred! Maybe I should download it? :P
Just kidding. I'd rather borrow my friends' Diablo2+LoD.

Yes, but its good that the illegal people are avoiding it.

Are you saying that illegal games are hard to get hold or something? Someone in here has already said they can post a link to it. You'll have to tell me about that "Diffenence" sometime <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Like I said, this isn't going down well with anyone apart from the ignorant. But as I uderstand it, that's a pretty big market too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Nah, I don't take games back that I can't copy... 'Cos there aren't any <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shhh.gif" alt="" />

Larian are breaking the law by doing this, so don't bitch about the pirates, and the gamers who return their product because of CP. They have a right to protect their software; not the disc which it's on. I'm personally sick and tired of people harping on about a subject they know nothing about.

I wonder if you're part of that. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />

Umm. The CP is for people's own good, and the company's.


Larian?? Um, no, I don't THINK they're braking a law. Which one, may I ask?

protecting software??? thats what the copyrprotection does!

Copy protection = legal: Disc protection = illegal. If there's anything else you want to know, it's all in the posts. You'll have to look the rest up, i'm off to bed <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sleepey.gif" alt="" />.

Kazaa? Lol. You wont find much on p2p setups like that (and if you do, 50% of the time it will be something other then what you wanted). It's all bit-torrent now.

The NFO (if there is one) is on the CD image and I'm not about to DL a 1.5gb file just to get it. This probably isn't done by a major group, but more likely some programmer who was bored.

why then would you want to copy an empty disk...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
if you not bitching about the CP on the game.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" />
i'm sure Hip Games, or even Larian, would be happy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
to send you a blank disk that you could copy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />
to your hearts content...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />

maybe when you "really" wake up you'll understand.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

Its illegal not to allow people to copy discs? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

if you do end up circumventing the protection, i would be interested in learning how, so that i might avoid any possible issues with it should i end up purchasing hardware for a computer where there is a conflict.

i enjoy replaying my games sometimes, and if i end up with another computer where the hardware is in conflict with this driver, i would be rather upset. hence, circumvention knowledge for the express purpose of my personal use ONLY to allow me to play the game on affected hardware is my wish. if you choose to share it.

Thanks.

Yep. It's a consumer right to be allowed to make a back-up copy of all your software. Copy-protection makes this hard to do (imposible for the average consumer) and is therefore "illegal". This is usually stated in the EULA for most software.

People who want to make a backup copy: well why don't you. You can install the game from your copied discs. You just have to pop in Disc Two whenever you feel like playing, and I'm sure this won't "wear out" the CD (the disc doesn't even have to be in there all the time, from the moment you see the intro movie, you can safely remove it and put it back in the vault if you wish). I remember when they introduced Compact Discs to the broad public, and one of the arguments they used was that one such CD would last a lifetime...
--------------



Apparently Larian thing's you can make a back-up copy.
That is backing it up, just not a actual copy on a cd.

What good is a back-up if it will never work? Say you "back-up" as the CD's are now, and then a month from now your CDD malfunctions and melts/scratches your BD disk 2, what now? The "back-up" wont work because it wont pass the protection, you're screwed and forced to either buy a new copy or resort to illegal means of by-passing the protection.

That's just one of millions of things that could happen to cause a CD to stop working.

Yay, everyone rejoice that we can "install" the game from a back-up, you can't play it, so why bother?

What good is a back-up if it will never work? Say you "back-up" as the CD's are now, and then a month from now your CDD malfunctions and melts/scratches your BD disk 2, what now? The "back-up" wont work because it wont pass the protection, you're screwed and forced to either buy a new copy or resort to illegal means of by-passing the protection.
------

Sucks for you. Go to the store. Exchange.

Or send it to the Publisher. You get a new CD then when your old one is gone. You know with a legally bought Version you call that "support".

thank you Marian, sir <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> i forgot about that small tidbit of information! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

but try taking in your copied disk.... and see what happens!!

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <-- this is the store owner, when you ask for exchange.

Indeed, thank you Marian <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> People are being darn annoying with this whole copy protection thing, aren't they?


Right now in the US for instance IT IS ILLEGAL TO MAKE A COPY of a dvd. Not a privillege, but illegal.

xacesx does have a point in legality of cd protection.

starforce has indeed done a good job protecting the developers's work & publisher's coffer. & indeed it isn't without problems, as do other protections.

all is not lost as marian mentioned that we can always look for support from the publisher when it cems to this problem.

marian, if u don't mind me asking, can u help us ask the publishers just how can they can those who may have damaged cd's? should we send a blank cd? should we also send the damaged cd as proof?

is there not a "proof of purchase" or UPC code... include that,
and the "damaged disk" in question...
shove it in a P.P.S.A.E. and, yer good to go! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

P.P.S.A.E. = pre-paid self addressed envelope... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

there shouldn't be any problem at all, provided you follow these steps... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />

Just to add a couple of small thoughts. Different countries, different laws. Here, all software whether CD or DVD is allowed by law to be copied for ONE working backup. Therefore if the software doesn't allow for that, it is technically breaking Australian Law. However, since most of the games come in from overseas, that's a very moot point. Returning a bad CD to the publisher can also be both difficult and expensive. My copy of BD comes from the UK. The cost of sending it back isn't worth it. There needs to be a better solution, but I have no idea what it is. Everyone needs to be protected. Fortunately, I have had no problems running this game. It's great.

Oh yes indeed, "support", besides the $20 shipping and handling fees and the fact that you wont be getting your replaced CD for 3-4 months. I only paid $20 for this game, I'm not going pay just as much and wait several months for my "free" replacement.

And what if the publisher/developer goes tits up? Where's my support and new copy of the game then?

Do i have to pay for all the postage, and wait god knows hom many weeks to get the game back?

When the EULA says I can make a backup, I should be able to make a backup. After all, if you lot aren't paying any attention to the EULA, why should anyone else.

It isn't the developers/publishers job to stop piracy; this is a criminal offence, and is dealt with by the law enforcement agencies. If you have legitimate concerns about piracy or unlawful copying, then it should be taken up with them.

I'd like to send my personal regards to Xaishi who appears to be the only one who thinks this is important.

So let's say there's no disk protection, in what form is the software protection.

Say it's one .exe file, like the program Flash. It's 'protected' and I use that term very loosely by a serial code.

Anyone can use the code to install it anywhere, send it over the internet, copy it to disk with the code in a read me file. Then there's cracks for turning the trial version into the full version as well.

Because though it's a company development tool macromedia make a lot of money from it, as most companys are afriad to use illegal software.

But companys don't use games, home pc users do. So how do you protect this code?

Serial codes? Pointless.

Dongle? You'd have to swap that thing around for every game.

What's the answer? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

20@ bucks to ship a disc? Um, no. I can get CD protectors that are 5 dollers, wbith a guarantee, and then maybe a few more dollers to send it to the publisher's home base.

Please, show me where in the EULA it says that.

I'll grant you that this is a very interesting question. However, there are people paid bucket-loads of cash for coming up with the very thing you're talking about. I enjoy wondering about the solution, as this is a difficult question.

The bottom line, however, is that the law enforcement agencies should deal with it. I know they're not doing a fantastic job in some countries, but law enforcement isn't anyone else's responsibility, and at the end of the day, it's a crime.

Over here people buy cheap cigarettes that have been imported. Again, it's against the law to sell them, so what should the tobacco companies do? Ban cigarettes in all other countries completely, in order to effect few people who import them? You can't make everyone suffer, just to target a minority.

Perhaps this money so heavily invested in protections could be spent on independant organisations to investigate this matter... Perhaps online authentication or monthly/ one-off subscription is the way. Perhaps they could invest in more pubilicty, so that the governments change the law (in their favour) or embarass the authorities into doing something about it.

I'm just a dumb gamer! If i can come up with these, I'm sure the collective might of the publishers can do better <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

isn't that like having faith in something you know is not true! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

good point....now just apply it to this topic....


and you two are the minority! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/kissyou.gif" alt="" />

Having faith in something you know isn't true, is what get's the human race from one day to the next <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Like buying a lottery ticket <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> (yeah, you all do it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />)

Everyone being made to suffer isn't a good idea. It's usually reserved for the poeple who lack brains and can't get to the heart of the matter. When I was a kid, my teachers used the same stratergy:

"Right, if whoever made that noise doesn't admit it, the whole class has to stay behind after school"

It might be ok for kids, but dealing with adults and multi-million dollar industries, we should take a different perspective I think. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Then you have to pay them to ship it back to you, and depending on where you live, each way the shipping could be up to $10, more if you're in a different country.

WELL, you can just ship it to Hip Games, not that far away.

No, it's not. You are legally righted to produce personal backups of your media.

To the guy who said, "Why don't you [just make a backup of Beyond Divinity] then?": you cannot. Starforce 3 is built in such a way that makes what are supposed to be useful backup discs into useless backups. You can install Beyond Divinity with backup discs, but you can't play it with backup discs.

Anyone who doesn't yet see the problem with Starforce 3 has no concept of computer security, privacy, and the potential for malicious code.

That's a harsh statement. How about: anyone who complains about it has no concept of dignity, morality, tolerance and is using the "right to make backups" as a lame excuse.
So much for *the other conclusion* to this subject.

what do you mean by lame excuse?

You are only partially correct. In the US, you are allowed to make personal backups but you may not circumvent a copy protection system to do so.

Since commercial DVDs are encrypted with CSS, breaking the CSS to copy a DVD is illegal in the US under the Digital Millenium Copyright Act. Other countries have also adopted similar schemes (Australia added a similar law as part of the recent US free trade agreement.

Here's part of the law:

"No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title [...] to `circumvent a technological measure' means to descramble a scrambled work, to decrypt an encrypted work, or otherwise to avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate, or impair a technological measure, without the authority of the copyright owner".

It is true in the UK too. You're not allowed to copy a DVD strictly speaking, because of the CP. There's is no current law saying that a DVD movie can't be encrypted (CSS).

The games media is different, and can be backed up. Here's the paradox though: You're not allowed to circumvent the protection, but the publishers aren't allowed to use them.

So what you have is two sides breaking the law. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />

The law isn't interested in discs being protected, and they're not interested in gamers copying games. What they're on the lookout for is people who "Trade" or run "Businesses" with copied stuff. There are stiff penalties for this, and this is where the term "Pirate" is correctly used.

^"Fair use" permits personal backups in most cases but this is not the same as saying copy protection systems are illegal. Can you back your claim up or have guessed/assumed/inferred that copy protection is illegal?

It was a four page article in PCGAMER (I think) that I read. They interviewed the coordinator of the 'Trading Standards' and later did an article on the actual law that dictates DISC protection is unlawful. Ask them...

I'll try and dig out the mag with it all in, if you're interested.

The There are two things you need to be aware of: Copy protection and disc protection are not necessarily the same thing. People can protect their work, but not the disc, as they are also in breach of the EULA (where backup copies are condoned), as well as the law.

I'm not saying the law won't be changed (eventually) in favour of the publishers encrypting discs, but the EULA will also need to be changed to reflect this. As it stands now, when you purchase a game, you purchase the runtime code and the right to run it. There is no set expiry date in the EULA stating "you cannot run this code after two years (for example)". You have the same right to run the code you purchased six years after you bought it, as the day you bought it. If the dev/pub goes bankrupt, they cannot replace the disc with the code you paid for, and thus, your right to backup your purchase.

However, this law is in place to protect businesses in my opinion, who can become heavily dependant on custom written software, and mainstream programs. They often spend thousands on products, and backups are always implemented in any "disaster recovery" plans they make. If the law takes away this right for them, it will have far reaching consequences in the security and stability of businesses everywhere.

Check out this article Here

Here is a quote from it, "backing up" what I said (no pun inteded <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />).

" The music industry has said, however, that music creators have the right to protect their works from piracy and have done so for years without it being it being deemed unlawful. Furthermore, they point to the fact that only a handful of CDs have been distributed with the protections included so far."

^That article reports on a civil suit (which may, or may not rule in favour of the plaintiff), it certainly doesn't indicate copy protection systems are illegal.

As far as businesses go, copy protection systems have long existed and I don't see too many developers on the wrong side of the law for using them. My business systems have Windows XP, which requires Product Activation. I have Office, which requires Activation. My accounting software Quickbooks (and the one before it, MYOB), requires a Registration Code that changes on reinstallation and my quoting software ITQuoter has a license file that requires annual renewal. It's a often a pain but it isn't unusual.

I do agree the Starforce protection seems to be a violation of BD's EULA and that seems a legitimate (if pedantic) complaint.

All the protections you've just mentioned (with the exception of Starforce) aren't disc orientated. What I said was disc protection (not software protection) was forbidden. The actual article in PCGAMER said it was illegal also.

The reason they're filing the suit, is because the law has been breached. If a law hadn't been breached, there would be no point in launching the proceedings. You cannot take someone to court for not doing anything wrong.

ITQuoter is a licence for 12 months, you aren't allowed to run it after that without renewing. This isn't the same EULA as a game, where you have unconditional use of the code, regarding time.

Finally, starforce may well be doing it's job of protecting games from being copied, however, it's appears to be doing a host of other little jobs too. Like rebooting computers randomly, causing authentication failures and damaging data. As I understand it, the law only permits the encryption of DVD movies at this time. And if this changes in favour of the publishers, then the EULA must be changed to reflect this.

If we lose the "Fair use" policy, I suppose you'll be binning your DAT drives and tape drives, that back up your server, as this on a technical level would be a breach of the new EULA, if copying is outlawed.

I have just found the mag:

PCZONE, Issue 137, Jan 2004, Page 12. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

The Copyright And Related Rights Regulations 2003 Act (CRRRA) are a series of regulations designed to bring us into line with the European Union Copyright Directive.

Computer games users enjoy a sprecial privilege under the existing copyright law. According to section 50(A) of the 1988 Copyright, Designs & Patents Act. It states that legal purchasers of computer games are explicitly permitted to make a backup copy of their purchase.

Interestingly, the rule specificly applies to computer games. For no adequately explained reason, purchasers of Music CD's or DVD movies are not granted the same rights to protect their investment.

This section of the law has not been changed by the CRRRA. You're still entitled by UK law to make a backup of any piece of software you legally buy.

Section 296Z - 296 makes it an offence to do anything at all which is designed to curcumvent any piece of copyright protection technology. However, it is also an offence to deprive the consumer of any right which is explicitly granted to
them by law. So if copy protection is implemented, which there is no legal way to circumvent, (and thanks to the CRRRA now there isn't) you are depriving the consumer of the opportunity to exercise their right to a backup. Which is illegal.



Here are a few links for those of you still in denial...

http://www.patent.gov.uk/copy/notices/2003/copy_direct3.htm

Details of the law that's been changed.

http://www.elspa.com/consumer/faqs.asp

ELSPA's statement on backup law.



Now that I've proven it's ILLEGAL (not to mention immoral) to encrypt or copy protect discs for games, I think I'm entitled to do this: <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I stand by everything I've said, and all the publishers are no better than the pirates when it comes to respecting other peoples rights.

moot! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

here have a hero biscuit! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Right, that's me done.

Back to off-topic where I belong <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

And then all of a sudden a lifetime turned into 15-20years at best.

As more and more software starts to use "so called uncrackable" cd protections, I think we should all start to see it right out that the games/software you buy are more and more "timeware". sooner rather than later patches to the OS or damage to the disks will make them unplayable.

About support? I think you can kiss it goodbye 3 years down the road.

Replacing your CD after 5 years will also be impossible du to different reason.

A. If a distributor has pressed 10000 copies and sold 9700 of them. Then they have 300 left over. if 400 wants to replace destroyed cd's, only 300 can.
I have no believes and distributor will press another 10000 cd's to replace 100. And I doubt CD pressing firms will be cheap if your amount is only 100 cd's.

B. As mentioned, the firm could have gone belly up.

I just came to think of an other possibility, to fix parts of this problem.

What if every software house, 5-6 years after the release of the game, released it as a free download, or cheap download Without any protection.
After all I can't think of any game, except Halflife that still sells 5 years after it release.

This would make sure that games wan't exist for just 5 years, before all the CD's around is to destroyed to be playable. Secondly, those downloading the game would most often be people with special interrest's in the game.

It would also eliminate the need for replacements disk beyond that timelimit, since its now a unprotected title.

Just my 2 cent.

Hey, 1/2 the Beyond Divinity boxes came with DD <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Well, the problem is, that *any* data will be void or at leastr fragmented one day !

Magnetic tapes for example ... invaluable data will soon be lost simply because the tapes are no longer good !

We can only "help" the data to "survive" if we copy it to every new medium that's available, if possible ... or carve it into stone. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

this is absolutely disgusting. Or are the Starforce people under some kind of contract to keep these games updated after the publisher is gone?

so does that mean they're coming out with stone CD's, then we could each carve our own stone! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

I haven't bought <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> yet but I did make a backup of <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> I'm sure when I buy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> I will be able to back it up as well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

Stone erodes.

yeay your all right, The fact that installing the game can damage your computer doesnt matter and is nobody's fault <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Larian made a mistake, its as simple as that, and they have showed effort to try to correct this. End of story really.

Cant we create a new forum just for Starforce "i hate" or "i love" threads????

may i also suggest a desired location to save it on the server????

/dev0

????

i wish people would realise that microsoft windows XX all comes STANDARD with spyware, loopholes that makes it very vulnerable, bad design, and enough things that can cause your computer to randomly restart, freeze, go mad, and crash at any given moment.

BTW the SARS virus is deadly too!!!!

THats kinda what I was saying.... I wiwh this thread would be thrown into the depths and that they should have some info about this starcon thing on their naim site,

What i find sooooo funny, is the same people that is moaning so bitterly about starforce... is probably busy playing DOOM 3 right this very moment... hope their computers crash with it too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />

doom uses that? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

Oh YES.... and according to the reviews on a couple of other "long been waiting for" games... they ALSO using it....

So

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />

at all the hypocrates playing doom 3 at the moment <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

Howver I still agree this starforce thing is stupid. Bethesda doesnt have any pathetic little copy protection things and off MOrrowind they made so much money they are giving away one of their old games for free and now morrowind comes with both expansions.. and the game pirates of the carribean comes with a ticket to the movie <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Even though the movie hasnt been inn theatres in ages. I say make an excellent game and sell it. Dont waste time, money and customer's support with crappy little wussy starforce things. I mean if someone wanted to pirate the game you think there is anything you can do to stop it?
Now that doesnt mean dont try, but what means quit it is when it pisses people off and stops them from even wanting your game <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> .
I like Larian, second only to Bethesda and I hope one of the important person like Lynn reads this and doesnt get upset with me but understands what I mean.