Larian Studios Forums Beyond Divinity (English) General Well, that was that.

Any time. Also Eastern Canada is not to bad. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> Lived in both parts loved both sides of Canada. It's not bad for a small country. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for noticing! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> hiya kiya <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

@Kiya : I can fully understand your position - people are different, aren't they ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

There are still parts in Gothic I don't like very much (mostly the male-oriented society and the grade of difficulty), but theoverall "feeling" and atmosphere is very good. I only know one game that created a similar, yet *very* different, but in general very *deep* athmosphere : Zanzarah.

I'm kind of bored about the high amount of games being produced without accepting the specific european "feeling" (what I know as "The Old Europe" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" /> ) . A game about the american civil war is as interesting to me as a game about the european 30-year war ("Dreißigjähriger Krieg") would be in the U.S. . That's my intention behind my writing. I'm against any kind of monopolism, no matter which source, and from a certain degree on I react the way I did. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> I'm pro diversity, and that's why I'd liketo see more games from different countries. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Back to topic : The number of available skills is indeed *very* high. I would like to be ably to see what a skill actually does before "installing" it permanently, but that's just a thought of mine. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

That's a noble sentiment, but for me, patriotism is way, way down on my list of priorities. Someone has once said that a story is good, or it is bad. This applies to everything else; it's good, or it's bad, and I don't give a whit about how it's produced, how much effort was put into it, or which country it hails from. All I care is the final product, and there the matter ends.

And that's how every consumer SHOULD think about it but for me personally I find it difficult not to take those factors in account. So in conclusion, YOU are the most efficiënt consumer here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />.

By the way, I'd like to point out that I'd never support a game that is not well made - "badness" to a certain degree. It must well have some quality in it, naturally.

I thought it was sarcastic. Sarcasm is generally not used in a positive way (I thought when after I posted is that you could just be joking and I would have made a big mistake, but you said you were not joking)


If I said that somewhere I made a big mistake, sorry for that.


I agree, again, if I said that I was wrong. I ment (that is not spelled right is it) that you have different kinds of supporting (well, an unlimited amount of kinds IMO).

In other words, ignore my post as it caused only disturbance. I'll delete it.

Hi Foetsy

For most of the people in the forum, english is not a native language.
Sometimes we have a lot of difficulties to understand each other and there are some misunderstanding.
But it is not a great problem because the people are not aggressive and they just ask : "Why did you say that ? Are you joking ?".

I rarely use sarcasm and you are right sarcasm is not used in a positive way.
In my posts, i am serious or i am joking.

Your post did not cause disturbance. It helped me to see that people have difficulties to understand what i am saying.

In this question there was no sarcasm, no irony, i just wanted to ask "Do you support something just because you are patriotic".

I am patriotic too, if 2 things are equally good i will buy the french one even if it is a little more expensive than the other one.
But if the french one is less good than the other one i will buy the other one.


Alrik, you agree with me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/kitty.gif" alt="" />

Barta

You can not tell somebodies exact meaning from text.

I agree with all your points Winterfox. BD was a mediocre offering. I also did like the music, however. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't know why BD irritated me as much as it did - I've certainly played much worse games. Two reasons perhaps: Firstly my expectations were high after enjoying Divine Divinity several times through. Secondly, there were just too many bad or mediocre things to overlook. You'd get past one irritating bug or piece of sloppy editing or design and up would pop another one. The stuff that was OK (of which there was plenty) was just OK, not fresh or compelling enough to make up for the bad stuff. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

But to concentrate on the positive, here's what I DO look for in an RPG:

1. Strong and interesting story with some decent character and plot development. Not just the usual generic fantasy repeats that too many rpgs dish up these days. If you can't think of anything fresh to write about demons, goblins and wizards then give us another setting please. Please also give us some decent interaction between characters.

2. Humour. Make that humour and intelligence. A few modest smiles at some of the lines in BD left me wanting more. More scenes like the very funny existential discussion between the skeletons in DD please.

3. Interesting and attractive settings. Somewhere that's actually intriguing and rewarding to explore. BD had FAR too much boring repetitive dungeon and corridor type scenery and the open air settings were mostly dreary wrecked looking wastelands.

4. LESS BLOODY RUBBISH! Geez, I'm tired of lame barrel smashing nonsense and endless pointless junk. Some of us can actually play for more than 7 seconds without some idiotic "reward". Whoops! That's sounding negative... Please give us more interesting and relevant items to discover, even if it is at the cost of less things to find overall.

5. Stats that actually make a difference. I would greatly prefer a much streamlined set of skills that make a difference to how the play unfolds. Too many of the stats and attributes in BD were simply too "lite" to make any noticeable difference to how the fights or story played out.

6. IMAGINATION. BD felt like Larian had used up all their imagination in DD and had slapped together BD from leftovers in the waste basket. Please, if your well of imagination has run low, get some fresh talent on board, or do whatever it takes to refill it. I'm sure it's an easy thing to fall prey to - even Bioware turned out a stale piece of writing work with the original Neverwinter Nights.


RPGs pander to the following human interests:

Nosiness (exploring, gossip, storyline...)
Shopping (Item collection, stats, etc...)
Violence (A decent fight sytem that offers something more than just the same fight over and over and over with slightly different graphics...)

So I want something that panders to my inner Shopper - some interesting and engaging shopping, not just a walk through yet another K-mart or McDonalds. I also want something that really gives that nosiness something to sniff out, not just more dungeon walls, barrels and levers... And some fun and variety in the violence too please. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As for me I never want to even ENTER Wal-mart or ANY other store that has MART or WAL or K or anything like those stores AGAIN.

They scare me at night... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />

Yes, skill amount is very high, to offer a wide variety to choose. But you don't install "permanently" => you can unlearn any skill if you have enough money - exception are skills out of the Summoning doll part IIRC.
Kiya

I think that's the thing with mediocre offerings. If it's good, I enjoy it; if it's truly godawful, I give up and laugh at it. Something that hovers in the between -- especially something that's been released by people who I know are capable of better -- merit a sort of disappointed indifference that quickly turns into seething antipathy.



Y'know, that's what sad about the DK/paladin combination. They could've had great interactions, but no. I don't feel my character has any substance of strength of personality at all; the dialogue options are limited to bland, clinical inquiries like "What are you called?" and "Can you teach me something?" Sometimes the DK actually tells my character what to speak. That's rather demeaning.

I Am in Complete agreement with the assessment Winterfox has made of this "GAME?"
I felt like I was back playing a Game from the EARLY Eighties!
Poorly Conceived-poorly executed. And the Comment by Winterfox: "Repetition -- please, no more levers. Lever puzzles are neither clever nor fun. Surely there are other ways to secure doorways? Anything but levers, for the love of all that is holy and unholy!" Good GRIEF YES! Levers went out in the Mid-Eighties.
Any Game Developer that USES Levers NOW is Waaaayyy Behind the Times.

You would have done better,Winterfox,to have choosen Dungeon Siege-while it is not a GREAT Game it IS FAR SUPERIOR to BD.
Of the Last FOUR Games that I have played ---Dungeon Siege, Gothic 2, SACRED
and Beyond Divinity, BD Gets the LOWEST Score of all Four. In Fact,BD is the Worst Game I have played since the Early Eighties.
The REVIEWS I had read some Weeks ago on BD were ALL in Agreement that BD was NOWHERE near as Good as its predecessor DIVINE DIVINITY,but ALL Seemed to agree BD was Worth Picking up since it also Included D.D.. SO,not having Played D.D. I went ahead and Ordered BD--I do Not Know HOW ALL these Reviewers could have been WRONG but D.D. WAS NOT INCLUDED in the Copy of BD that I received so I will NEVER Know jow IF D.D. REALLY IS/WAS better than BD. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />

Hi Sigarr,

Promotions for the game differ from retailer to retailer.
HIP Games, our publisher, provided us with a list of retailers that are currently carrying Beyond Divinity in North America along with the promotions inside the box.

USA
Fry's Electronics (with Free Divine Divinity)
CompUSA
EB (with Free Divine Divinity)
Gamestop (with Free Divine Divinity)
Best Buy(now in stores with free novella)
Circuit City
Hastings
Musicland
+ many smaller retailers accross the country

Canada
Futureshop (with Free Divine Divinity)
Best Buy (with Free Divine Divinity)
EB Canada (with Free Divine Divinity)
Staples/Business Depot
Wal-Mart
+ many smaller retailers across the country

Kind regards,
Lynn

In regards to your above comments WF, unfortunately that was due to the whole Death-Knight not being able to talk decision (not mine). This meant that in order for the DK to comment on situations, which really needed to be part of the game, he had to see through the player’s eyes (not the ideal but without one you’d just lose all the DKs comments). Having the party also splitting up was a bit of a nightmare too because you had to have situations where the NPC was initiating conversation with the DK on his own, the player on their own or the player and the DK together. The NPCs could only direct questions at the hero, or have a one liner dismissing the DK. This created a whole load of narrative headaches, especially because it was decided after Act 1 was edited, so it had to be re-edited to fit. I think I would have much preferred the straight-down-the-line, both characters can talk to everyone approach.

The problem is, according to Larian, that lots of people don’t read narrative and just skip through, so therefore they were taking the logical step of reducing it and therefore having less localisation costs. The hero originally had one word responses, until Bron, the testers and I, rebelled against it – hence the hero was allowed short, to-the-point lines -again not what I would have hoped for but better than one worders. The future of interactive dialogue is an interesting one, and one that I think will be redefined not so much by its underlying structure but by general character development, depth and emotion. Thoughts anyone?

Rhi

So Rhi, not sure if it's been asked before -- but why can't the DK talk? What's the reason behind a decision like that?

I'm really curious, cause I think I remember meeting DK's in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> who would talk...

It's all to do with being under Samuel's command, he robbed them of the power of speech, perhaps they gossiped too loudly or something <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Leather_Raven: Well, for a start, I think it would provide excellent opportunities for character development and interaction if the PC could initiate dialogue with the DK -- you know, the way it can be done in KotOR, PS:T and NWN. Character banter is rather important in RPGs, IMO; there was a time where I obsessively replayed BG2 just to see all the inter-character interactions, between party members and otherwise.

Hi LR,

I'm just back from doing the weekly supermarket shopping so, yes, this IS a mushroom in my pocket. But I'm still pleased to see you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (Obscure reference to BD joke, if that sounds odd to other posters...)

I'm horrified to read that the opinion at Larian is that "lots of people don’t read narrative and just skip through". That may well be true, but my feeling is that a big part of DD's success came through support from people who saw it as a welcome relief from the current trend towards "dumbing down" games for the mass market. For many of us, the lines that you were allowed to put into BD were one of the best parts of a rather patchy affair. We'd like more not less. Put the writers at the front of the decision making queue not the back please!!

Games like Dungeon Siege and Diablo 2 do what they do well, and I certainly wouldn't knock them - I enjoyed them both. But I'd hate to see all rpgs follow that same format, or even that general trend towards more speed and less thought.

I think that DD very successfully tapped into a niche market that still wants to see variety, individuality, and a bit of depth. Moving away from that could be a risky move. No doubt Larian are hoping to leap-frog into the big league, but game companies that mis-time the leap all too often fall to oblivion on the rocks below. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

Look at any discussion of great rpgs and one that crops up time and time again on the list of all time greats is Planescape Torment (more often than not in top spot on rpg gamers' personal favourites lists). Yet it was one of the wordiest games ever! Now I'm sure that developers would be quick to point out that PsT wasn't exactly box office dynamite when it came to sales, but there is a lot of fruitful middle ground between the abundant prose of PsT and a game with one word replies.

Another recent game that seemed ambivalent about its direction was Ascaron's "Sacred". Clearly they were aiming at a slice of the Diablo market and unashamedly copied much from those games (as have many others). But they hedged their bets and tried to "improve" on D2, not only by little touches like allowing unsocketing of items, but also by trying to broaden out the rpg appeal with other additions. Their quest system, was a curious mix of fully scripted and random quests which - like the Battlefields in BD - was shipped while still buggy and unreliable. The end result was a game that was far from a flop to play yet didn't really succeed well in any area. It didn't have any genuine rpg depth in the quests, or most other aspects, but neither did it really pull off the "Fast, Furious and Fun" style of a good adrenaline charged hack and slash title. I had a very similar feeling of let down after both Sacred and BD - both games that clearly had some talent on the team, but just failed to get the mix right. Significantly for me, both games were clearly trying to economise on the writing.

I think that DD2 is going to be a watershed title for Larian and they simply can't afford to blow it. I for one fervently hope that they know where they are going with it and don't end up with another half-cooked effort like BD or Sacred. I don't want to sound like I'm knocking Larian. I understand that pushing out BD quickly was probably a commercial necessity to buy some time to develop a new engine for DD2, but I certainly hope that they have a clear idea of where they are going. And I hope that direction is not towards less focus on writing a good story, less genuine interaction and less dialogue.

If they're chasing the "dumbed down" market then that's up to them. All I can do is put in a fervent plea for them to stick to the style and spirit that made DD a success.