Larian Studios Forums General Chat extreme use of voilence (discussion)

I was just shocked, when i read the news today.

Here’s a little piece of the news
"DAYTONA BEACH, Florida (AP) -- A man who was angry about a suspected theft recruited
three teenagers to stab and beat six people to death with baseball bats in a Florida home"

Look at this link for the whole story.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/08/08/bodies.ap/index.html


What is it with this extreme use of violence these days?
How come people just "snap" and take a gun and shoot everything in it's path.
How come a boy can cut of body parts of his best friend, just because he loosed at a computer game.
How come you can get beaten up, by no provocation at all??
How come you neighbour man can smash your car up, because of that “tree” you didn’t want to cut of in your back yard?

Is it just me?
But I think that there are a lot more unstable people out there in this world then we think.
With unstable I mend , like there are a lot of aggressive thought roaming in the human brain.
Most of the time it is surprised , by something as our conscience.

But when there is some stress involved, people get to behave more and more unstable.

One of the main reasons I can think of is the media.
If you watch television, or play a computer game, or a comic book.
There are lots of violence in it.
These violence, (it can begin with bashing a kitty, to cut someone neck over with a knife) it stimulates the brain.
For some in a way, you don't even notice it, and for some at reacts directly.
You have allot of fun with it, doing it. so you like the violence.
Normaly you mind your conscience say to you; “hey it's just for the fun of it, it's just a game, or it's just a movie.”

But what if you’re slowly got these stimulations stores in your brain. You have the ability to be unstable, and you also got stress?
You can snap in a instant. Get the riot gun and shoot your whole family out.

I say it's the violence in the media, that's the greatest cause, because it stimulates the more "unstable" people out there.

where will it end,
If a human life isn't worth more then a pack of sigarets or a X-box.?

That's just sick. Sick. Why on earth would somebody do that!? That's what police are for. Just like how I heard some people were bored and they decided to play GTA, for real. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

The world's turning into a sick place. How can somebody do that to somebody else?

I got 1 answer, parental education. These days to many neglet the needs of a child or neglet to educate. Ppl expect the school to educate. I'm honestly pretty sure bad parenting is the biggest cause. Doesn't mean that all famelies should be like 7th heaven, moral and social conduct is the parents responsability. A child needs to learn to take defeat as another part of life, face the world with all its problems, don't blame music, tv or friends of teh child but those responsible of its eduction. In first place the parents and then the school. Not the otherway around as popular these days, blame the teacher.

Every child knows GTA is just a game, not all childs know life ain't a game.

I think one of the reasons there are so many more people who are violent, gay, selfish, ignorant or any other category is because there are so many more people. They have always been there, making up whatever percentage of the population. There's now more people for the percentage to draw on.

All the same, it's still terrible. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

I agree that your upbringing has a lot to do with it. People like to accuse games and movies and the media for inciting violence, but all they do is give the violent people ideas. They had violent urges before they saw the inspiration.

EDIT: Just to clarify, the attitudes I've listed above are merely more memmorable or noticable ones. There are also more caring, intelligent, athletic, gifted, and talented people out there for the same reasons. They too take inspiration from various mediums to do what they do, but it is their upbringing that helps give them their traits.

Hm, if upbringing is mereley seen in the rather small frame of family => I disagree.
Kids and their parents live in a certain environment - and consist of a lot of people - their beliefs - beliefs of their culture - media - games - news - gender roles etc.

So, even if parents try to live and educate in the terms of non-violent methods, their kids are still exposed to the rest.

What do to do? No clue <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> - one way is to show up positive examples in history, where peace, non-violent communication and cooperation lead to constructive results - another way would be if schools, culture, politicians, parents (all adults) would approve of non-violence and live it, so kids learn by watching. These examples are rare - very rare, why? It takes 2 for peace and only 1 for violence.

There seems to be a violent streak in every one of us - depends how we determine it, where our borders are and how we develop (self-)responsibility, (self-)respect or endurance. It is "easier" in short terms IMO to use violence and believe, this settles a problem - not "easier" on long terms, as violence is a spiral. Even if some individuals manage non-violence, what is with others? It's a terrible disease - wish, we had an antidote.
Kiya

I agree about latent violence being there and looking for a channel to come out - but I wish, this would NOT be exercised in games, movies (entertainment). And I wish, news would show up both sides. Maybe, we need a few 100 yrs more to learn that life is more worth than death?

& that somehow made life not so great when such things happen, & at your backyard!

malaysia is also suffering its spate of violence-related crimes; rapes (with children being more common victims now), murders (gang-related, or just fickle flare-ups), abuse (maids, children), etc.

for malaysia at least, i can say education emphasises too much on academic intelligence & none on emotional intelligence. kids & their parents as well don't learn about emotions & how damaging they can be if unchecked. can u let your anger flare up without controlling it? at least, u'll have people in the immediate area hurt. at worst, the consequences of the damage will ripple out to others & continues.

it's just too easy to let emotions control the steering wheel of a person. i think everyone should or must learn about emotions. emotions are what make us human rather than just intelligence. if we fail to understand that, we fail to understand our humanity, therefore we fail to become human. we will fall back to animalism.

my 2cents.

I´m not sure wether there is a significant increase in extreme violance at all. We just get better informed over the years, and the population level is increasing. Thiese are the main reasons for believing of a more violant society in my opinion.

People had always killed others for almost no reasons, have abused children in all times of history, people have always wanted to simply hurt otherI believe that this is out from our society (not lack in education, but the education!).

The father who teaches his son that he never shall run away from a fight, the mother who agrees; in shool the boy/ girl gets the most attention that is able to frighten the others (due to physical or psychological violance). The movies in which violance is the only solution are new in a global context and don´t help at all, but they are not everything.

And another reason for violance is ,of course, determination. Some people really have kind of a violance gene and other don´t. Those who have this determination do not have to become violant, most can control themselves, some can´t.

(sorry for not writing scientifical here, burt I don´t have the time to look it up. There really is kind of a violance gene, I heard of it several times. If somebody has time could he/she look it up?)

just a update;
i read in the newspaper, a belgian woman (32) went on vacation with her mother (61)
the day they wanted to go to turkey , the doughter takes out a kitchen knife.
Stabs the mother 20 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> times.(luckely she's survived)
then she screamed off the balkony for help.
later she didn't knew that she did it.
they never had an argument before.

She didn't know that she did it!!!?? Looks like someone's looking for the insanity clause to get out of jail.

First point: This has always gone on. Seriously. Only the REPORTING of it has gotten better. We hear more and more disturbing reports of death, violence and destruction every day. More criminals are actually caught and missing person cases (usually murder etc.) are actually solved now because of better forensic evidence etc. I can't imagine living in the victorian era for example. Where you'd probably get stabbed or mugged walking in the wrong area of London. Or shot for no reason in the wild west. I can imagine people wandering around then muttering about how there was none of this murdering business in their day. All nostalgic crap. I can imagine old dinosaurs moaning 'there was non of this egg-stealing back in the jurassic era!'

Second point: As Kiya or someone pointed out some have a tendancy toward violence. This has been around for as long as the human race. Our degree of self-controll and attitute determines whether we are violent in a certain situation. The point I do not agree with is that games, movies and the media in general determine how people act. Allthough the NEWS seems to desensitise me to violence more than anything else.

Third point: Parental control. Upbringing has a fair amount of influence in a person's behaviour IMO. I learned morals and the principles of crime and punishment from my parents and school. They are both important. What's wrong today (oh god I sound like an old man) is that you can't give a child ten bangs on the butt with a slipper if they misbehave. You can 'ground' them sure but what kid would see that as much of a punishment? I don't think I would. Locked in my room with my toys? YAY! Sounds allright to me.
Think back as a child. I was terrified of getting a slap from my mother. It stopped me from misbehaving. A lot. Eventually the sheer threat of it would make me stop and think. (First principle of crime and punishment really)
More importantly though. I was educated about what was right and wrong. Told why I couldn't just do what I want. Why it effects other people when you steal something or hurt somebody. An educated child is usually less likely to cause pain to someone else. The TV is not education. It is an easy substitute used far too readily today.

As to the original story. Sounds like typical Florida behaviour to me..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Maybe its the heat or something down there.

Ahh, but in the middle ages it was a part of life. If you didn't like what someone said, you'd poison their food or stab em in the back.

And yet after all this, we all still play a game were you have sharp objects made with the internet of stabbing creatures. AND somebody even with the very name of one of the forum members. Well, actually an Egyptians Queen ( IIRC ) but yeah ( not taking the name saying Larian hates the person!!! Don't misunderstand me, just an example!)

But we have no problems, we don't go out to a New Years party and stab everybody. Why do some people?

That's right. Better methods and more people make it very obvious.


Games and the media can make us capable of more by inspiring us, but self nature and self control determine our actions.


While I agree with this, I had some conflicting experiences with this. Being the kid who was always bullied at school, my father encouraged me to fight. While I am not a violent person now, I can certainly stand up for myself. My father happily pirates software to his heart's content and offers it very readily. Everything I have is legitimate, I don't want to be invlolved in piracy. But there was something about my upbringing that has placed a sense of respect in me and that is what has made me me.

What I find interesting in myself is that I could be violent and criminal if I wanted to be. I know enough to pirate software with little trouble. I see plenty of opportunities for easy theft. I'd really like to push <name deleted> down an escelator (automatic staircase) and watch them hit every sharp edge. But I don't. In fact, I'd rather hide myself away than do that. I don't know why exactly, but I will always hold control. Really, I'm thankful for it.

Parental discipline is a fine line. Like Womble said, he feared being slapped by his parents. Same here. I was scared enough of my father that I avoided him altogether if I could. But some parents go too far with their violence, hitting their kids for every misdemeanour, and when they do something really bad, laying right into them. A lot (not all) of these kids learn that violence is to be expected and don't hesitate to use it.

I discipline my cats by biting their ear (like a mother cat would) before ejecting them from the house or putting them in the bathroom. There's no permanent damage, they know I'm angry with them, and they have time to calm down before I let them back into the house. I don't like doing it, but it works. The cats have a good idea of what is and isn't allowed. Doesn't mean they still don't try sometimes, but it's better than letting them run rampant.

Hm, this depends on what right/wrong is in a culture, Womble. It's not as fix as you would like it. Enemy idols are everywhere (think of the cultural combat going on between west/east culture) - think of religion and its allowed violence, when it comes to those believing otherwise. Heavens! Think of the past - think of weapon laws, gender roles of males being a hero if they murder/harm/violate for a "higher cause". Think of Inndy English, think of terrorists (who are called freedom fighters in their environment of right/wrong) ... think of those, who justify what they do by their right/wrong.
NO! Parents can give a guideline, but a youth/adult has to decide on its own - but how can a youth decide, if her/his chances are limited to their cultural environment? that's like teaching colours to a blind.

And HOW can a young adult decide and live her/his virtues and ethics if legal groups define what right/wrong is and therefore allow to harm? Therefore allow to feel free of own virtues? Therefore want (!) you to lose your individualism and simply obey?

I think violence - even the slap on the butt for a child teaches only ONE thing: "Wait until I'm big and strong enough to do the same and get what I want". Gee, which culture does not rely on the "right" of the stronger? And the simple way to get what I want? It's violence, oppression, suppression. Why? BECAUSE of this dualism "right/wrong". Feeling I'm right, allows me anything, even revenge... I think, borders should be taught in a different way - not by biting in an ear (yeah, works for cats, though I prefer water or the noise of a newspaper heavily rapped on the table). I think, borders, respect should be taught by making clear which consequences an action has. And if the person willing to do something, is as willing to let it happen if she/he is on the receiving end.

And I do believe that the steady drop holes out a stone => media, games, magazines, novels, religion - name it, name everything else I missed - goes into the violent direction and forms the cultural environment I live in.
Kiya

forgive me if i'm wrong - but humans are very much animalistic with more intelligence than other animals, therefore rule number one is still self-preservation. then & only then preservation of community comes in, either as second or maybe lower rung or order.

to be individual is to preserve self. that is to be strong & survive & if given the opportunity, thrive.

those who are not inclined to individualism will be more community-based therefore u have culture, religion, etc. u have to give up on individualism or some of it to live in community. individualism & communism or community-inclined (not karl marx) are two & opposite ends. no way can anyone or any community reach both at the same time. one of them has to give.

violence may be the primary avenue to self-expression. individualism. one can argue that communities also resort to that but primarily because of preservation of community, which stems from preservation of self; individualism.

then again, i may be wrong.

@ womble & kiya -> punishment may AND may not be right. it all depends on individuals. i took punishments from my parents & grew up right as they deemed. but my brother took the punishments badly. so he grew up not as right as they deemed. so nothing can ever be the ultimate action that suits every single individual. in that part, kiya, u're right. i mean, i agree with u. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We should be able to teach borders and respect of the rights of others differently - agreed, though I am far away from the perfect solution.

But what you are saying as quoted is replacing one form of violence with another - and this is similarily true in "modern" child education; physical violence is banned, and more often than not replaced by psychological violence. In my personal feelings keeps creeping the suspicion, that the damage done to the "educated" is worse.

I do agree with this. I started to see kids playing truant all the time around Newcastle starting in the early nineties. No-one has the right anymore to drag their worthless hides back to school and give them 10 raps with a big stick. There is a particular fear to painful punishment that also keeps kids in line more. Sad but true.

Now these kids hang around street corners, shopping malls, parks and so on drinking cheap cider and trying to get grown-ups like me to buy them booze and cigarettes. Then they'll go and get themselves knocked up to avoid school further and get an automatic council house. Living the rest of their lives without jobs and spawning another race of b#stards (literally-the fathers don't stick around) into the world.

Their parents are to blame too, as they are drunk, undiciplined morons catatonic in front of their TV's. They hit their kids for no reason, making punishment senseless, driving them from their homes.

What I guess I'm trying to say is that I was raised in poverty exactly like this but my mother (single parent) was intelligent enough to teach me good morals.

Therefore, my point is that my parental guidance was very important to me. My guiding light that gave me a sense of purpose and lit a fire under my as# to get out and do something better with my life. Achieve something my parents had not. Get out of the slum.

Short note on how kids are treated over here. The problem ones are diagnosed with ADD now and sent to therapists. Doped out with ritalin (sp?) to make them behave. That's f*cked up IMO. Parents don't seem to talk to their kids over here. They rely on school, TV, computers, drugs and basically ANYTHING but their own guidance and wisdom to educate their young ones. Its sickening. A really, really sad reflection upon today's society.

Kiya: The feeling of 'revenge' for physical punishment exists, I've had it before. The thing is it goes away, the 'reason' why you were punished remains to educate you because the punishment was direct and simple. You remember it better than therapy or drugs. Actually because I believe it stimulates an old animal instict within us that will link pain with self-preservation. Making us very wary of doing the same thing again.

Hey, I've never been hit or anything in my LIFE by an adult. Or maybe an old relative did it...But anyways= I've turned out fine. ( right? ) for the most part.

It all relates to the person. For me taking away my video game systems was enough every time I did something wr ong. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />

Personally, I believe that violence is a generally accepted means of solution in the USA (hope I write this correcly). That's why it's featured in so many games.

That's my personal belief.

Shoot first, ask questions later.

Wish for revenge doesn't go away always, Womble. I see this every day in the neighbourhood I live in. Maybe you remember that I take care of stray cats? They were treated cruelly before I moved in here - these kids live on the street after school and seem to enter their flats only for bedtime. My garden is safe for the cats - no one can enter. And still the kids tried to hit them with stones, branches etc. Throwing seemed to be sports for them. I got contact to some - mainly to tell them clearly which consequences were waiting for them if they would continue torturing these cats. With a very few I got so strong contact that they were able to display their world view to me => and it was that of the stronger. "My brother hits me, the older guy hits me - I want to grow up quickly, so I can hit back and then hit the younger." We had a few long chats, I told them my point of view about the violence spiral. These kids live in an environment, where violence is accepted as the right of the stronger one - and they even endanger, by putting large iceblocks on the street and watch cars skidding into it, until I came out and told them to stop, by pointing out the danger. Gee... what did they do? Moved 2 streets further - lesson => "do what you want, but don't get caught".

What punishment could change them? They're used to get bashed, by older, parents etc. Well? Tell me, Womble...

I asked an older female youth, why these kids like to torture and scare the strays (they had killed kittens in a terrible way and threatened an old German lady who wanted to save them with a knife). You know what she said? "Oh, they're just kids, they are curious." She was one of the older in charge of the younger kids here. And I asked her which curiosity she meant - enjoying what pain does to a weaker creature? I asked her, how compassion, empathy and social conscience can develop => she just turned red and stared at me. I came from the Mars planet obviously in her view. Her archaic, Neanderthal clubbing-world was her reality => the world of violence and the right of the stronger.

Punishment? No, sorry, doesn't work. These kids are losers already - and I blame their parents, the school, my township. They already have only a marginal chance to develop. Please, believe me, I don't exaggerate. These are Turkish kids of the 3rd generation, wanderers between 2 cultures, 2 worlds.
Kiya

Maybe you ask, why I still live here? To protect the strays. I can't help these kids - I have no influence.

Oh, you're right about ADD - is a very modern diagnosis here in Germany as well - though Ritalin is discussed and criticised highly (pros/cons). There are interesting theories about the reason why German kids are so unconcentrated, hyper-active and partly violent => some sociologists blame it on the anti-paedagogics era, as these former kids are now the adults of today and parents. These theories say => parents don't want to be adults, but remain in an eternal juvenile state as a partner of the kid. So, no regulations, no rules, no consequences. Some blame it on the fact that both parents work, so no proper taking care of is done. Consumer goods, TV etc. have taken over education and the old school system is not prepared for teaching kids social behaviour. Media saturation leads to this behaviour say others.

I believe this is the point I was trying to make Kiya. I think punishment with no explanation is wrong. A child has to know why he was smacked. Punishment should never go too far either. Another common problem in 'problem' families.

In the wrong sitiation such as this violence begets violence. I've seen it too. To ban spanking of children alltogether is totally stupid though. If done right with an appropriate lecture then it is the best form of dicipline.

For example. You 'ground' a child and lock him in his room for a night, totally ignoring him/her. I would find this much more useless than explaining why they were being punished and giving a 'short, sharp shock' which they remember far better.

The kids in your neighborhood are simply not being punished properly IMO. Same as I have seen on council estates in the UK. Stupid people should not be allowed to procreate, frankly.

I understand your point of view, Womble - but I still think punishment (verbal/physical/psychic ) is not constructive. I believe in showing up consequences. Locking a kid up at all night is cruel as well, I'm glad we agree in this <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> With exception of the "smack" as you said - I used explanation - and if I understood you correctly, this should be included, right? Smack+explanation. I go for this => explanation+consequences

I do know that my way of explaining/consequences is tedious though, requires a lot of discipline and patience. Therefore I chose to have no kids myself

My sisters and I were brought up in a wealthy environment with a lot of priviledges - and in a terrible climate of violence and oppression as well (be it my strict parents or the countries I lived in). So, my XP lead to my result - as subjective as your XP leads to yours <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
Kiya

No clue why the kids stopped clubbing the cats - maybe they found better victims? Or maybe my talking to them helped?

I made it clear to them that I would not tolerate it any further and would go to the police if they didn't stop. I explained, why I did not want it - I told them, the strays were under my protection - and their parents would get into trouble, as under 14-year-olds can't be "sued" in German laws - their parents can. And finally I told them - I would know how their parents (father) would react => with violence. I told them - "you've got a choice" => violence+my consequences - or non-violence and peace with me.

I don't know, I enjoy the result. Since nearly 2 yrs now. Has violence stopped between the kids? Nope <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> - I'm waiting for the next winter now...

As for kids/youths in the library => same procedure => 1st warning + explanation of consequences - consequence (out for the day) - or out for a year. But we do this in clearly defined steps we are willing to undertake then. Endless discussions and no consequences are futile spent time IMO.