Larian Studios Forums General Chat RPG Chat Are story focused RPGs dying out?

Quote from Leather Raven (aka the game writer Rhianna Pratchett) in the BD general forum, in response to criticism of the lack of character dialogue in BD.



That would seem to be a pretty key question facing RPG games. Where do you see it going? "Interactive" used to mean that the player got a choice of what their character said and how they developed. Now, as far as speech goes, it seems to refer to whether there is any in-game dialogue at all, let alone the chance to influence it. I love good wordy story driven games, and I enjoy ones that give me the chance to respond rather than just listen. However, the majority of games now seem to dish the story up completely pre-cooked, and fairly "lite' with regard to dialogue and story.

For instance, for the minimalist approach, I've just replayed System Shock 2 which had a number of RPG elements but no dialogue or NPC interaction at all, apart from killing whatever you saw. The only tool that the writer was given to advance the plot and create the atmosphere was a series of audio logs from the crew (almost all of which you find well after they're dead) and an intermittent series of bossy monologues from a computer AI (or two computer AIs to be pedantic about it). It also took place entirely in a series of rooms and corridors. No external scenes at all. A very restrictive brief, and one that I’d generally run a mile from. But they did still manage to use it to good effect. You could develop your character through different skills ‘implants’ and by choices of weapon styles and attack methods. It worked as both a shooter and to some extent as an rpg. The path of magic was replaced by ‘psionics’. The atmosphere was well maintained – and downright scary at times – and the plot remained a central part of the enjoyment. Some of it looks a bit dated now, particularly towards the end, but it was cleverly done, given such a very narrow range to work with.

But I certainly wouldn’t want all games to follow that format. I’d soon lose interest if all I had to play was one after another in the same style. I like to balance the rock and roll with a bit of symphony music, to sometimes swap the magazine for a good meaty book. Is there no room left for variety? Is it too much to hope that games won’t follow the movies and TV down the route of wall to wall mass market stuff? Are games with choices of dialogue and story paths going to disappear altogether? Have multi-layered story-rich quests been completely replaced by large numbers of skippable shallow one-goal tasks?

Most shooter style games currently use a similar format to SS2 – story information (where it exists at all) is delivered by in-game devices such as found written material, computer terminals, ‘briefings’ delivered by an unseen ally or commander, overheard conversations, and so on, interspersed with scripted cut scenes. The rest is left to the visual side of things, with more and more emphasis on a cinematic style of delivery. Not that cinematic treatment of games is bad thing, in fact it’s becoming pretty much essential to incorporate some of the strengths of a good film into games. But if visual techniques replace word based story rather than complement it then I think that’s a huge loss.

RPGs are one of the oldest forms of game genres, tracing their roots all the way back to the first text only games of 20 years ago, and also to the whole history of telling stories that rely more on words than pictures. I’d hate to see them abandon that tradition and just merge with the faster paced, visually driven shooter style.

"Interactive" was once quite a catchcry in the games industry. After all, computer games have a unique advantage over books and films in that they have use a technology that can deliver genuine difference from player to player and give us the chance to play through more than once without it being exactly the same each time.

But many developers now seem to have abandoned their initial goals of depth and intelligence and treat the market as one big pool of dumb impatient kids who want ‘no thought/ no effort’ entertainment based on bash, crash, flash and eye candy. That can be fun too for a while, and maybe that’s where the money is now, but I sure hope that it doesn’t end up choking out the rest of the market.

Right now my games dollars are being spent on books again. No bad thing really, I’ve always loved books, but I’d like to believe that there are still some well written and satisfying games somewhere in the future.

What do other gamers feel about the future, or past, of RPGs?

Uhmmm. Let's see.

KotOR. Banter between party members, banter between PC and party members, party members inserting remarks in dialogue, sub-quests specific to some of the party members that open pathways for more character development. A far cry, if anything, from BD. As in, several light-years superior and filled with many more options. Multiple solutions for a quest, multiple endings. As story-driven as it gets, hey? KotOR also happens to be a pretty damn "mainstream" game; no one can deny its popularity, although I can't say I'm privy to the sale numbers. But it warrants a sequel, has raked up many awards (and presumably, money). 'Course, KotOR is a polished, polished product, to boot. Flawed, but nevertheless, it's not a piece with clunky interface, questionable skill progression, and bug-riddled skills. Not to mention that the voiceactors are actual professionals.

KotOR2 is in the making. NWN2, likewise. Both by Obsidian Entertainment, a team consisting of ex-Black Isle employees including, but not limited to, Chris Avellone. Y'know, lead writer of Planescape: Torment.

Bioware is making Dragon Age. Presumably, it'll be fairly story-driven.

False alarm, I think.

I fear this is no false alarm - and I would add this => MP has to be included, otherwise gamers will cry again.
I wouldn't say dumb though - I would say: impatient, low frustration level, low experimentative approach, easy come+easy go - yes, eye candy seems to be more important than story depth. My old wailing again => Diablo based (action oriented RPG) has spoiled this genre, but has become a standard (I personally dislike) and seems to wanted by customers.

I might give up my PC game hobby in a few years - my taste is not represented a lot. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />

I do see a sort of dumb down, maybe because this hobby is mainstream now? Don't know. Controls have to be easy, RL combat is vital, combat and loot is interesting - story? No... not anymore. Puzzles that wreck the brain? No - could lead to frustration. A lot of traders, flashy inventory for this, sets habe to vital (Diablo is calling). Interaction with the environment? Nonono, not too much could brake rushing on and is called fluff. Details? For what? It's killing, looting and leveling up that counts.

Yes, I'm a bit bitter about the way RPG go - but I've seen this development since a few yrs now. I don't know KOTOR though, this is no fantasy for me, (it's SF and I dislike Star Wars very highly, be it books, movies, games) and RPG are connected to fantasy for me (just my personal taste). Games have become more difficult for me to stick to them - I get bored too easily => fast food causes indigestion in my case.
Kiya

Ah, Wizardry 8, where have you gone to? Albion, Ishar, DSA, Ultima 7, the Summoning? The Veil of Darkness?

PT was no game for me => it had story depth though and the critics I read said => too much text. Oh, yeah, should add this => cultural analphetism leads to voice acting. Don't read too much... simply skip it... off to the next enemy to kill and loot. The future goes to Sacred, DS, Diablo <sniff>

the plague of story death not only affect RPGs. i can see as RTS gamer, the trend follows every other genre. if the developers ever said anything about story, it'll be only the setting or background. other than that, it's all skill progression or reaching 'uber' level.

lionheart is among the most heart wrenching story of good & promising RPG gone horridly wrong. the first few maps are filled with NPCs u can interact with & most of them have characters, though not so believeable. still u can interact with them other than just trade/buy/sell.

now what i like about interaction with NPCs in lionheart; it allows different kinds of reaction to NPCs' dialogue. one can react violently & intimidate or even initiate a fight, or even feign or sweet talk to get through tight situations. unfortunately this is only true to very few NPC's while others are just fillers with balloons.

DD while wasn't as deep as lionheart in NPC interaction, has great overall story which did carry through the game though sadly not the last part. for a belgian development team, it was impressive. i haven't played BD so i cannot comment on it.

for miss rhianna, thanks for fighting for more dialogues in BD. i hope u beat lar up if he refuses again. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" /> get lynn to help out. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

wordy games may seem decadent & out of place in this day & age of action games, like hakea, i do hope for such games to be around for as long as i play games. that's the reason why RTS gamer like me play RPG. for stories & dialogues that are immersive.

Kult (under developement): Will feature many dialogues which affect the game.
KotOR 2: Even more dialogue choices than in the original game (at least that is promised) with plenty of opportunities to persuade or lie.
Wizardry 9: No one knows when the game will come out. Still no news from Sirtech since they promised to reform and continue with Jagged Alliance and Wizardry licenses.
Elder Scrolls 4: The next ES game should feature as much dialogue as in Morrowind.
Fallout 3: There is no reliable information about this upcoming game by Bethesda but knowing that Morrowind had a long dialogue tree, we can expect the same for ES4.
Vampire: Bloodlines: Troika wrote a big dialogue, with possibilities to avoid violence, persuade or just talk with different NPCs.

Thanks everyone for some interesting and informative replies.

KoToR:
Thanks Winterfox I must remember to re-instal that one. I played about 20% through and then had a major hard drive crash and lost the lot. Stupidly, I hadn't been backing up my saves to my second drive, as I usually do. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> I couldn't face trudging through the same stuff all over again until I'd least semi-forgotten it. Fortunately that doesn't take long at my age... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> Kotor, KoTor, now what WAS that again..???

Wizardry 8:
I've totally forgotten that one Kiya! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> So I just finished re-installing it. It will be interesting to see what it's like. I've just read that DD2 isn't due until at least the end of next year, or maybe 2006, so it looks like I need to get in more beer and sandwiches and re-instal a lot more other old games. Gothic 1 & 2 spring to mind. Well, "spring" might be exaggerating a bit....

Kult:
MUST remember to check those threads about it and bookmark a site so that I can keep an eye on how its going.

Interesting to hear of some of those follow-ups in the pipeline too. Must find out some more about Obsidian, they sound promising. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Maybe all is not lost. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

Obsidian was Black Isle studios untill those nimrods at Interplay fired them.
Obsidian is composed from members who worked on Baldur's Gate 1, BG2, Icewind Dale, IWD2 and Planescape: Torment.

KOTOR => Knights of the old Republic - rings a bell now?

Wiz 8 => if you take a pre-defined group, greet the grumpy dwarf from me, please ("do I have to fall flat on my face before I get some sleep?") and the ranger with the French accent, who is only hurt a beeet, if he is nearly dead - and arrogant Flicker, the mage - and the charismatic female bard. Oh, and greet Domina and her whip from me, too.
Graphics are not very beautiful and you have a dungeon crawl at the beginning. I liked the way the turn-based combat was made very much. Looking forward to your response, how/if you like this game <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
Kiya



Do you still need to concuss people and suck out their blood for HP? This is why I didn't buy Vampire (the first one) and quit Kain very quickly. Can't play like this <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />

Like Vampire: Redemption, Vampire: Bloodlines is based on White Wolf's pen and paper game "World of Darkness". Legacy of Kain has nothing to do with WoD, it's Crystal Dynamics' intellectual property. Although I fail to compute why you quit Kain.

I can't concuss or nearly kill and then suck blood for vitality <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> - it made me feel sick. Don't laugh, please <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shame.gif" alt="" /> this is why I can't play games based on this kind of filling up health - any vampire game.

I don't mind having my char suck out fruit/vegetable - I don't even let my char eat flesh in other games. I already feel bad if I have to kill animals (if they're hostile and I have no alternative - such as wolves.) This is why I quit Gothic 2. The whinning death sound => I lost track of the game, see?
But letting my char drink blood... indiscussable for my game fun - yeah, I'm a sissy. I tried to avoid wolves in DIV, ran away as fast as I could, so some could live - or I tried out "charm" to keep them from attacking me.
Kiya

I love slaughtering pesky animals and pesky NPCs.

I genuinely wish I could murder that little girl in act III of BD who kept following my character around.

I'm reminded of the first gothic game where some dumb witted guy thinks you're his best friend in the world and starts following you around, constantly interupting things and generally just getting in your way. I had to attack him until he got the message and ran off saying 'You're crazy!'

And then in Baldurs gate...that bloke 'Hi ya!' You walk way - he follows 'Hi ya!' 'Hi ya!' 'Hi ya!' Argghhhhhh die die die!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" />

I'm actually getting tired of fantasy, especially since there's only so much one can do with sword, sorcery, elves and dwarves. There's a reason I like Forgotten Realms. It's typical fantasy, yes, but it's rich in details. Cultures/geographical features are fleshed out and real (politicking, organizations, etc); each race is distinct; magic systems are actually somewhat interesting, and so on. Most RPGs slap generic fluff together and that's about it. DD, BD, Sacred, and Dungeon Siege are very much guilty of this. What cultural flavor? What distinction? What unique worldbuilding? Everything just consists of banal, hackneyed pseudo-European/pseudo-Tolkien elements.

Give me something set in a shared world that's already fleshed out any time of any given day.



What didn't you like about PST?

For me a good roleplaying game is not simply one with a great story. It has to have balance with good combat (be it tactical or action) and a good reason for the combat, which is an element of the story. For example, Why must my party travel to the ancient castle and kill all the monsters inside?

I loved PS:T though I never finished it. And it's true for me that there is too much text. Some of which wasn't helping the story or the game move along. Instead it was stifling the flow and turning the active experience of playing a game into a passive one of reading a book. Not bad per se, but I am playing a game. If I want to read, I'll get a book. It's still great though.

I think Bioware are still championing the cause of story driven RPG's...but even a game with a fantastic story can fall flat on it's face if the technical side isn't right, like shoddy gameplay or combat.

A true roleplaying game must have characters that have a personality. An identity. In PS:T the main character was the story.

Down with generic character shells. Every person in an rpg that you either play or deal with on a regular basis should have more than one generic line they repeat over and over. You might as well be playing with a graphic of a car driving around killing monsters for all the interaction and 'personality' they have...ie none!

Talking about pesky NPCs, I feel so sad I can't slaughter that snotty nimrod Bastilla the first time I see her. Gnnnn.... Khhh... Stttupid Bastila *mumble mumble*.
"*Whisper* You are overusing the force."
Shut up, young lady! Trying to play evil is hard enough without your incessant nagging!
Well, at least I killed many other people... And Kath Hounds... And some weird cave lobsters... and a random wanderer... And some wookies... and..

1. I mainly agree with kiya (I'm *very* often astonished how good she meets my own taste ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> )

2. @Winterfox : A Shadowrun-based RPG would meet your taste, perhaps, if you're tired of famntasy. Unfortunately Shadowrun-based RPFGs aren'd widepread (to put it mildly).

Well, most male players love Bastila and hate Carth. Most female players hate Bastila and love Carth.

I love Bastila as a character (I love, love, love developing her in my fanfic) and am indifferent to Carth. Oh well.

No emotions for the main char - couldn't identify myself with him. I liked the world, the large amount of text, the creatures there and even some of the NPC (specially Mort), but I couldn't stand looking at the main char. I don't stick to a game where I feel no identification.

I tried the game 2x - and in both cases I was 3/4 through and lost track, nerve.
Kiya

I have a lot of reasons why I quit a game in general, sometimes the animations get on my nerves (char scratches head in the last Ultima - started to count how often he did it and lost the story - started to count clenched fists in Gothic 2) - or I dislike story plot twists I can't influence - or I dislike the way my char looks in armour (Morrowind) - or I don't feel at home in the world (Gothic 1) - or a char leaves I like very much (Septerra Core, but my bf played it, so he could tell me how the story continued, I always came when cut scenes occured and watched) - or I detest something highly (Legacy of Kain) - or I get bored (Gorasul, Sacred, DS) - or I dislike the mix of technic, Victorian Age and magic (Arcanum). I buy a lot of games, but I don't force myself to carry on at all costs. Games should be fun for me, not a religion, therefore I don't say a game is good/bad => simply, I liked/disliked it for very special reasons that don't apply to others.

And there was only 1 game I quit pretty much at the start because of terrible bugs => POR 2.
Kiya

Some might say, I waste a lot of money? Nope, don't think so - each game is exciting for me to start and then look if I want to complete it. I treat them the same as book novels => finish them or bring them back to the library half-way through. I can't understand it, if gamers get worked up over a mere pasttime pleasure, write long reviews with pros and cons, get heated up - it amuses me only <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> Same for "the best game ever"... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />. But that's only me - it's a simple hobby amongst others. So, I don't think quiting this hobby will kill me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

so far I only brought one game back, because I felt seasick => Atlantis. I tried the Cryo Engine over and over again in several games => I always feel seasick by this gliding movement. My eyes don't like it.

Why I liked DD and BD in spite of it not being innovative as you said? No rational clue - I felt at home, wanted to proceed, wanted to know the story and the end. I liked the graphics, my chars, NPC, story etc. There was a lot for me to play around with, experiment, variate.

I hope it doesn't mean I am gay, Winterfox, but I like Carth and dislike Bastila. Though I also like Mission and HK-47.

Wow, you're male and you actually like Carth. That's rare. Not accusing you of being homosexual or anything; I'm just very surprised. Most males think Carth is "whiny."

Nobody can resist HK-47. Charms or otherwise. Reading/hearing him in-game is fun; writing him is a hoot. Snippet from my fanfic, stripped of the narrative:

HK-47: Request: Do attempt escape, meatbag. I haven’t shot anyone properly for weeks. Suggestion: you could try to cause an electrical overload and blow a hole through the ship. Approximation: The differences in air pressure will cause your frail organic body to explode within five milliseconds. Even with the use of the Force, you will be aimlessly floating in the vacuum and the chance of your survival is precisely 0.000034%.

Dark Jedi: Quiet, rust bucket, before I follow your suggestion and fry your circuits.

HK-47: I answer to the master and no one else, sloshing sack of fluids. And ’rust bucket’? Observation: You seem to be afflicted with deep-seated emotional problems, not the least of which includes insecurity issues as well as a need to impose and assert your delusions of grandeur. According to my databanks, this is usually the result of trauma during the juvenile phase of development. Did you suffer at the hand of oppressive or abusive parental management, meatbag? Were you, perhaps, beaten? Disallowed to play with other organics of your age? Misunderstood?