Larian Studios Forums General Chat Chat (Anything) The Argumentative Git thread

Hi all,

On another thread here, Womble admitted to being "an argumentative git", and I thought "yes, me too!" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

So why don't we run an arguing thread along the same lines as HandEFood's Caption Contest?

It could go like this. Someone picks a subject, maybe Software Piracy, Speed limits, Politic Correctness, gender issues - anything at all that might provoke a debate. Kick the thing off with a statement that outlines the topic, and take it from there. It could be something mild like "is graffiti art or vandalism?" or a deliberately provocative statement such as "Graffiti vandals should be nailed upside down in the town square and spray painted by the general public until dead or repentant".

Posters would of course be free to post irrational arguments, change sides, post as more than one 'character' - e.g. "Yours Truly, Major Bigot, retired" etc.

Humour would be encouraged and personal attacks frowned upon unless in fun.

After 2 days a winner would be declared, chosen on any basis the judge felt like - funniest, cleverest, most thought provoking, or whatever. The winner would then get to choose the next topic and be the next judge.

[EDIT: Changed the time from 3 to 2 days. I've noticed that on the Caption thread, and similar ones, most of the action comes in the first 2 days and the 3rd day often just drags past while posters wait for a winner and new start.]

Any takers? First one in can choose the starting topic. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

I hate to see you standing there on your own Kris – and I can confirm that you are indeed an argumentative old fart. So here’s a topic to get your teeth into (while you still have a few). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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"What is the future for Old People? Are Senior Citizens a valuable resource for wisdom and experience, or just clapped out old has-beens?"

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Australia seems to be currently struggling to build up its personal cash savings, stockpile sufficient water resources, or amass reserves of pretty much anything except empty beer bottles. The exception is oldies, who we are slowly but surely collecting at an increasing rate.

How will we pay for them? What shall we do with them – treat them as revered ‘elders’ or grind them up for garden mulch??

"We" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" /> are a valuable source of wisdom and experience,
and should be well looked after in our retirement years...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> .....
........
.......
no matter what the cost! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

senior citizens are anything but spent.

indeed they have much to offer in their current; knowledge, experience. even if some can't, no one should even think of 'dumping' them as they have done their part in contributing to society & country. the least a country can do for the senior citizens; love them as parents & take care of them in that manner as well.

& personally, i hate the idea of 'dumping' old people in 'homes'. might as well kill them & stuff them in a coffin. why? thos so-called homes are very very impersonal. never mind the fact that it's organised care, with peers of the same age. more than anything else for them would be to continue to be with family. sadly most families don't want them anymore.

i visited once an old folks home & my heart was shattered looking at their faces. their eyes would just light up when there is somebody, anybody who would just give 10 minutes of time to talk with them. all they want is company & of course love. some complained that their children put them in the home & promised to visit them. at first, it was weekly, then monthly, then on holidays, then gone. even the people who run the home couldn't locate the family. they just disappear. i couldn't imagine & still cannot do so now, how heart-breaking it is to have your children, whom u raise for so long, have just dumped u & proceeded to live on as if u no longer exist. as if u're trash! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" />

old folks should be taken cared of WITH love just because it's humane to do so & to allow them to live life fully right till the end.

sadly such trends; dumping old folks in home are getting more & more popular in malaysia. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

Alas janggut, you're all too right about the people in retirement 'Homes'. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> But we need an alternative view or two, so here goes...





Old! Old! I may indeed be sailing perilously close to 60 but I’m still in magnificent condition – my sails are still trim and taut, my hull is free of barnacles, and my only slight fault is a tendency for telling outright lies about my physical condition….

But yes, the old (people older than me that is) are of course a bit of a worry. The PR people would have us believe that they are all wise and experienced, but let’s face it – many of them were stupid when they were young, dumb in middle age, and retired clueless. Sadly, they didn’t suddenly get wise or useful at 65.

And the buggers seem to be living longer and clogging the place up a bit, costing the taxpayer a small fortune in support.

But I’m a humane and forgiving sort of person, and we can’t go round clipping them behind the ear with a large hammer just because they’ve become a bit smelly and forgetful. Not in full view of the public anyway.

No. My solution – which I will be implementing just as soon as you clods elect me President for Life – will be to legislate for compulsory involvement of all old farts in a range of extreme sports and dangerous pastimes. The sky will be full off free-falling grannies, and the cliffs and skyscrapers will be lined with base jumping grandpas – all of whom will be whacked out of their gourds on free government booze and drugs.

High powered motor-cycles will be the only permissible transport for anyone over 65 (who will of course be banned from wearing helmets). Older pedestrians will be actively encouraged to cross the road when the signal says ‘don’t walk’, smoke their 3 free packs a day, race in demolition derbies without a safety harness, never use a condom, and be as rude as possible to strangers (OK, probably no big change for many on that last one..).

The old goats will have the time of their lives and expire in quick smart time. The long term savings will be enormous. The best departures will be shown on reality TV, and free funerals awarded. Vote for me – you know it makes sense!

That's not an argument.

But it is good! and funny too! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> ( speaking as a useful, smart.....old fart!) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Yay..Kris for President of British colony Australia. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

No. It's not.

Well, I am trying to provoke an argument here. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That's what the thread's for. I've always found it useful to explore all viewpoints, including the extreme and the absurd, as part of the process of deciding where the most useful path or paths might lie.

Perhaps you'd prefer to argue about a real life example?

My mother in law ended up in a home when the family could no longer cope with the effects of her Alzheimer’s disease. The last time we had her to stay it was something of a nightmare. She didn't want to be here. She no longer knew who I was and would whisper to my wife "there’s a man upstairs..." At night when we finally persuaded her to go to bed she came downstairs in the night, mistook a dining chair for the toilet, and well.. I’m sure I don’t need to paint a picture. Luckily we have wooden floors there not carpet.

It was a terrible business when she went ‘into care’ but her husband had looked after her well past the point that most would have given up, and he was old and not that fit himself. But he's a fiercely proud man and he certainly wouldn't have allowed us to have her living here instead of with him, even if we could have handled it (we live about 50 mile apart). So the solution was to find somewhere that she could get the care she needed and was close enough for him to visit at times.

So did I visit regularly like a dutiful son in law?. Um no. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> Not very often actually. I was always going to do it "next weekend" of course. It was just too painful really, plus I was already fully stretched coping with another family problem. She’d been a lovely person but what was left of her physically no longer contained anything recognisable from the personality she once had. It was a sad end to someone who had been quite a larrikin in her day (and would have laughed at my post above).

Maybe we could argue about what we should have done instead? Our solution was certainly far from perfect for any of us.

But I think I’ll go for the base jumping and living recklessly when my time arrives... i.e. soon.

I do rather like the idea of encouraging old people to take up extreme pursuits and in Dylan Thomas' words "Do not go gentle into that good night, rage, rage against the dying of the light". But perhaps it’s more practical to help us to keep working and contributing in part time ways. Certainly from now on it’s going to get increasingly hard for a proportionally smaller workforce to pay for pensions and adequate aged care.

I think we need to move away from the system of retiring at 60 or 65 and not working again. A way of keeping up some part time work that can allow a small amount of money to trickle in to supplement the pension, keep the mind active, and also keep more older people in touch with the community and the rest of the workforce.

Anybody got any good ideas about what the old buzzards can do (or alternatively recommend a good high risk pursuit for me) ??

I don’t know about the other old buzzards around here, but I’ve got plenty of work lined up for you. Don’t be in too much of a hurry to get rid of those tools just yet...

I’ll even listen to all your stories and jokes over again. It won’t matter that you’ve told them to me before, because I won’t remember that I’ve heard them anyway. Hmm, come to think of it, we’re at that point already. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Just don’t expect any wages. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />



We'll do another navigation rally, and I'll drive...


BTW
Cleglaw's rather dour response reminded me of the old Monty Python sketch about people paying to have an argument:

Client: This isn't a proper argument!

Professional arguer: Yes it is!

Client: No it isn't!

PA: Yes it is!

Client: No it isn't!

Etc... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I wonder if Cleglaw set him up with those posts.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

Oddly enough, an hour or so later I came across a relevant item in the paper.

It seems that there are people other than (Welsh poet) Dylan Thomas and Kris who have toyed with the idea of growing old disgracefully. On page 18 of today’s Australian there’s an obituary for the French writer Francoise Sagan. Talking of growing old in a rather reckless manner she said:

"...it’s more fun than the alternatives. In the end , whisky, Ferrari and gambling is a more entertaining image than knitting, housework and saving."

She died at 69, doubtless saving a fair bit on the cost of aged care.

I don’t care for whisky or gambling, but if her Ferrari is going spare I think I might be willing to work it into my plans for the twilight years. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

Should we applaud her choice or wag our disapproving fingers at her? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

No. I didn't.

yes it was, and don't you say it's not! (well covered this one, I applaud myself)


OT:

I could give you a wide range of counter arguments:
- They paid for us when we were young (parenthood its called).
- They have worked the biggest part of their life and deserve time-off, if thats travelling around the globe or if they just have fun is seeing themselfves and counterparts waste away while watching matlock. He does have a case.
- We young poeple would wish for the same
- They ARE old
- They get ill easier
- They have needs
- It's all the fault of the modern consumption society, back in the old days old folks could take care of themselves.

But I'm very young and are not supposed to care about that:

We paid them back in love, i'ts always about money, stop trying to steal from you children

And because of their lazyness we won't have those priveleges and have to work untill we drop dead at the spot

I wish to go back to my last argument, we WISH indeed.

Old is relative, If would be their age I would feel young enough to keep working or would have killed myself out of boredom.

Nobody told you to stuff yourself with asperines when you had a headache, suits them right. Should have used herbs!

What could they possibly need? A young body? Youth? not in this lifetime baby do as I would do, kill yourself.

No they couldn't, they died earlier.


I'm willing you all to offer free lessons in how to end your life in an exciting way with lot's a gore.

A contribution from a noted author, the late Don Marquis, contemplating his own old age... He obviously didn't want to be "looked after":

"...we shall be the ribald, useless, drunken outcast person we have always wished to be. We shall have a long white beard and long white hair; we shall not walk at all, but recline in a wheel chair and bellow for alcoholic beverages; in the winter we shall sit before the fire with our feet in a bucket of hot water, with a decanter of corn whiskey near at hand, and write ribald songs against organized society; strapped to one arm of our chair will be a forty-five caliber revolver, and we shall shoot out the lights when we want to go to sleep, instead of turning them off; when we want air we shall throw a silver candlestick through the front window and be damned to it; we shall address public meetings to which we have been invited because of our wisdom in a vein of jocund malice. We shall ... but we don't wish to make any one envious of the good time that is coming to us. ... We look forward to a disreputable, vigorous, unhonored and disorderly old age."

A bit less extreme, does anyone remember a TV show called "As Time Goes By", starring Judi Dench and Geoffrey Palmer? They played two middle-aged folks, reuniting after many years apart. Palmer's character was a likeable grump, rather stuffy, but his father was wildly eccentric, full of fun, and always off on, or planning, another adventure. He'd probably have loved your Master Plan, Kris.

Sometimes it's the young people who should be "put away" in homes! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> Rock On!

It is not well covered, and nobody else applauds you. It is not.

Some interesting angles Draghermosran <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


A couple of the points remind me of a short debate that took place a few months ago in the letters column of our National paper. The topic was how to cope with the expected bulge in older retired people that will soon be here as the first of the post war "baby boomer" generation start retiring.

Some really quite vicious letters were written in by some readers who accused the older generation of being a bunch of morally and spiritually bankrupt planet rapers. They claimed that we taught our kids nothing but values of greed, and we wrecked the housing market by buying investment properties, etc etc. The tone was that we could all rot in hell when we retired. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I had a letter published in which I said that neither I nor my friends had any investment houses, or even shares, and that the "baby boomers" I knew seemed mostly to be decent and helpful people. I also pointed out that as a fairly numerous bunch we’d paid a lot of taxes that had not only paid for much of the care of the last generation but also had coughed up for the care and education of the next ones. I said that I hoped that at least some of the more needy of us could get a little help. I was sneered at for being an "apologist" for the sins of the generation!

So I’m not relying on too much support in my retirement. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

Rincewind that's great! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for taking the time to type out that splendid bit of Don Marquis. I guess that he was the guy who wrote about Archie and Mehitabel? Whoops, I mean archie and mehitabel – archie couldn’t type upper case.

I've just dug out the book entitled ‘archie and mehitabel’ and it's in front of me as I write. I think it was the second book of collected pieces. Must re-read it.

I didn’t realise that old Don had such a wild streak! He sounds like the prototype for Hunter S Thompson. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" />

They still show "As Time Goes By" here too from time to time. Two excellent actors in the lead roles. Oddly enough I don't remember Palmer's father - maybe he featured in a series I didn't see.

This isn't an argument. Its contradiction! (I don't think many other people got your joke Cleg) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

Hakea, sounds like the mindless forces of political correctness strike again... the specious assumption that generation A was short-sighted, stupid, irresponsible, or whatever, and generation B is wise and just and clever... but when generation C comes along, history repeats itself. Nevermind that each generation does the best it can in the temper of its times...

Mind you, I also think that the most vocal of the nasties are very much in the minority. And I certainly hope I'm right!!

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Kris, that Marquis quote was from a longer piece in which he pointed out:

"We have always been compelled, and we shall be compelled for many years to come, to be prudent, cautious, staid, sober, conservative, industrious, respectful of established institutions, a model citizen. We have not liked it, but we have been unable to escape it... But the people whom we really prefer as associates, though we do not approve their ideas, are the rebels, the radicals, the wastrels, the vicious, the poets, the Bolshevists, the idealists, the nuts, the Lucifers, the agreeable good-for-nothings, the sentimentalists, the prophets, the freaks. We have never dared to know any of them, far less become intimate with them."

... and then went on to describe his ideal of old age, when he's paid his dues and can finally "look forward to an old age of dissipation and indolence and unreverend disrepute."

Wild streak? You bet! During Prohibition, he also created the character of "The Old Soak", from which: "I see that some persons think there is still hope for a liberal interpretation of the law so that beer and light wines may be sold," said we. "Hope," said he, moodily, "is a fine thing, but it don't gurgle none when you pour it out of a bottle. Hope is all right, and so is Faith . . . but what I would like to see is a little Charity. As far as Hope is concerned, I'd rather have Despair combined with a case of Bourbon liquor than all the Hope in the world by itself."

Sez I, Charity is definitely what we need more of in this world, but in the sense of kindness and tolerance, not the arrogant, self-righteous doling out of "assistance" we nowadays so often associate with the term!! << Rincewind's Grump of the Day >>