Larian Studios Forums General Chat Chat (Anything) The Argumentative Git thread

Good choice janggut. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> What topic will Ubereil pick? Will the power of being 'da judge' go to his head? Will it change his life? Will he argue all the way through his own topic and declare himself the winner? Is he awake yet? So many profound questions to be answered... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Woho, I WON!!! I'm the best! EVER!!! Erm... maybee not...
Anywhay, let's pick a nice topic! After thinking hard and long aboput it (erm, acually I did that yesterday, when I didn't know I was going to win, so I don't have to think so hard now) I've decided to pick death help, since I don't have a clear oppinion about it. If I would have piced something like abortion, pepole who argued against it would have been quite disfavoured. Now I can be objective. But on the other hand, I'm such a lusy ref I will probably put allyour names in a hat and pick the winner anywhay. But let's not focus on that...
Anywhay, back to the topic:
A 50-years old man (let's call him Juliet) looses his leg in a car accsident and doesn't whant to go on. Shall he have the right to give the doctors a note saying this, so they can give him a shott and end his misery. Or, he didn't loose his leg, became braindead, and will probably never ever whaik up again...
Give me your oppinions, and I will announce the winner on Thursday evening (here, that is. In other words, you have about three and a half day from post time).

Übereil

Well if he loses his leg and doesn't want to live because of that, then he needs some counselling and proper care to lift him out of depression rather than anything else.

As it's against the law to take a life except in the most extreame circumstances where no hope of recovery is possible and it's needed to end constant suffering, he can't get 'his wish to die'.

This also answers the second scenario, except that any family the braindead person has will be the ones to consult about pulling the plug.

That's nearly double the 2 day time limit. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I might have died off by then.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

To the topic (which is certainly worth the time, if you can get enough input <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ...

I'd agree with Plowking about the first case. Losing a leg does seem more like a case for counselling and support rather than an assisted suicide.

In the case of the braindead person it usually boils down to a case of deciding to turn off life support machinery and let "nature take its course" rather than administering a lethal dose. But there are cases where bodies that are (by all useful definitions) already braindead, yet still survive on and on... In these cases I would support ending the life, with family consent.

Much of the arguing here centres around what's called "Euthanasia" or assisted suicide. The legal and ethical debate centres around the "assisted" part. It's hard to stop a determined person from committing suicide, but anybody who helps by providing drugs or equipment can often still be charged with murder.

The usual reasons for Euthanasia involve people suffering from painful diseases that they will die of anyway, or people who wish to cut short a period of degenerating into dementia and a degrading and miserable end.

Most cases are pretty clear cut and it's not hard to say that they should be allowed to die with a little bit of dignity left in a manner of their own choosing. However, it can be very hard to legislate for. Apart from various religious objections, there are practical difficulties. Some of these centre around old people whose minds are 'going' and the difficulty of deciding what their 'will' really is. Is it their choice, or have they been unduly pushed by relatives who would like to see the back of them? Is the person really in a fit state to make a clear decision, etc.

My great grandmother lived into her mid 90s and was bedridden and useless for some of her last years. A religious woman, she would ask "why doesn't Jesus come and take me?". Apparently the local doctor eventually 'helped her over the line'. But that was around 50 years ago in a small village.

I'm used to the idea of death and I've had 3 close brushes. Once in a bad car crash at age 17, and 2 more recently from life threatening medical problems that were eventually fixed by surgery. But I'm not that far off 60, so I certainly have a big percentage of my life already behind me. And many of my friends have died already, plus all my grandparents (and those of my wife) and both sets of our parents.

Above all I support choice. As long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of other citizens I can't see any reason not to allow people some choice about the manner of their own death. If I get to the stage where my life no longer seems worthwhile or bearable, I certainly hope that the law will allow, or at least turn a blind eye, to my having the opportunity to die with some assistance.

I'd rather not wait for the Grim Reaper. I'm hoping to be able to say goodbye with the help of his brother the Cheerful Reaper. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

Oh, I thought it was supposed to be a three-days timelimit <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shame.gif" alt="" />. Let's say Wendnesday then afternoon then! (And it's still in the afternoon for me...).

And pleace, don't focus on the fact that the supposed victim has lost his legs. Take it as Kris example of a serious and extremely painfull (like a minot cold... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" /> no whait... Lepra! That's it! (I don't know if there's a cure by now, but let's pretend there isn't. And this is only an example anywhay so let's not hook up on minor details)).

Übereil

Christopher reeve AKA Superman died today, i believe he was nearly switched off at one time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />, and look what he went on to achieve.

Same here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> - as I was not asked if I wanted to live (birth), I'd appreciate the choice for a dignified end (way and point of death) - so, I am thinking of taking precautions, as there is a Society for this in Europe and become a member.(Society for a humane death - Gesellschaft für Humanes Sterben).

BUT: it's me who wishes to choose - I want to achieve this. I would oppose very strongly to others wanting to choose for me - be it relatives who can't bear my suffering or groups who think, my life is unbearable for them.
A volunary death has a long tradition in the Greek and Roman past - this is how I would like to choose - not it being done by "people deciding who has the right to live or die".
Kiya

Edit: I agree 100% Kiya. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Do you know any more about the Christopher Reeve example Spick? He clearly wasn't brain dead, so what were the circumstances surrounding a possible switch off? Was he involved in discussions, or was he in a coma for a while and it was talked about by next of kin? I didn't read anything about it.

Either way, it's another example of how hard it is to organise these things by laws - because each circumstance is different.

I don't belong to a Euthanasia group, but I believe that in some cases members will draw up a request (to their friends, relatives and supporters) that sets out the exact circumstances in which they would wish to be helped to die. Usually this would cover times when they become physically incapable of ending their own lives unaided. A much more tricky one to write up (or carry out) is the case of Alzheimers or dementia where someone may not wish to end their days as a mindless dribbling wreck. In these cases, by the time the person is ready to die they are no longer capable of rationally making the decision.

We went through the business of my wife's mother dying of Alzheimers and it was a distressing and pitiful business to watch. Long before she died, her entire mind, character, and personality had gone, and the physical shell that was left bore no resemblance to the person she had been. Neither the doctors or the relatives had the right to say "OK, enough is enough, time for an overdose" but the doctors can (and in this case did) discreetly ask the family what level of care is suggested. In other words, if the patient gets pneumonia, or organs begin to fail, then don't administer additional treatment, attach life support devices, etc. This seems reasonable to me.

The law here still forbids assisted suicide but there do seem to be ways around it if people are keen enough. As far as I know, law enforcers seem less zealous than they were about trying to prosecute people, particularly if the one who dies administers the fatal dose themselves and the suppliers of any drugs or equipment are not directly involved with the death. Technically they can still prosecute the friends and relatives who gather at the "farewell" but they seem less inclined to follow through with that now.

I can't really say too much about the decisions of others, but I would certainly hope that if I get to a position of dying from something painful and terminal that I be allowed some choice in the matter.

Anybody got any strong convictions one way or another - or can say if there are any situations where they would like a push over the line??

I promised my best friend to help push her over the line if her pains become unbearable and if she does not wish to live on. She has cancer, had 200 operations and is 39 yrs old.

So far, I'm the only one she can freely talk about death to - IMO a very important topic - sadly a taboo for a lot of people.

She had been in a coma for 3x times now, and is a symbol of life for me, as I have never seen a person enjoy life more than she does. But - if she will ask me, I will fulfill my promise - as I think, this is what friendship is for: stand by each other in every situation. Each day she wishes to live is a gift for me (and she's enjoying to plan her new garden now <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> ) - but I will come if she calls. I owe this to her, she does not wish to become a whimpering bundle and lose her dignity. SHE chooses, I follow. I have never seen/met a more courageous and brave person than she is. I do not care for laws in this case.
Kiya

Edit in an "easier" case for some - very, very hard for me => I have had over 30 cats and took care of them until they died. The vet and I did everything as long as they wanted to live, regardless of costs, as some were chronically ill for several years. But if one does not wish to live any longer (and believe me, I know - have often shocked my Doc with this "knowledge") I accompany them on their last way - up to the end and don't leave them. Why? Because loving and taking care of them involves this responsibility as well IMO: helping them to cross the line of they wish to. THEY choose, I follow.

thanks for sharing your experiences, kris & kiya & also the rest.

though my religion doesn't permit one to end life (either his/her own or that of others), i dare not say anything for myself for i might contradict my own self if i were to say YEA or NAY.

as for assisting death, kiya's experiences with her cats are closest that i can relate to. i have kitties that die as i helplessly watch. wished i had a few syringes of lethal doses to ease the pain. i rear fish as well & there are times when some of them would just die. & as for the case of fish, i would just sever the head from the abdomen to end the pain. i can tell u the dying ones are not the only one with pain. recently i had a kitty that has some kind of disease that ate her away slowly. i was torn between ending her struggle & helping her to get through it. who am i to judge that it's time for her to cease when she might have hope & at the same time, i have no right to prolong her painful life?

things like this, i am very much undecided but i would pray for guidance.

about 'braindead' phenomenon, this is still quite dubious for me. whatever advances & knowledge we have so far in the field of medicine & human biology are still inadequate to determine what 'life' is. so what basis is good enough to tell if someone is 'braindead' or no longer there? maybe it isn't the mind that breaks down, rather the physical body. well going further into this will be very much off-topic.

back into topic, if one deems him/her self no longer interested in prolonging life, either due to loss of limbs or tired of fighting disease, or just want out, who is to stop them? i don't think 'rights' has anything to do with it as that word is pertaining to law & man-made laws shouldn't dictate one's life; be it prolonging or cutting it short. i would advise to hold on but if one wants to cut it short, so be it.

your life. your choice. i won't & hope not to play God.

Two very impressive and thought provoking posts from Janggut and Kiya.

The issue of "Playing God" is one that I feel that I can only keep thinking about, without probably ever fully solving. Every parent has to "play God" some of the time as they make decisions regarding the care and upbringing of their children, both in regard to how they teach them and with the level of medical care they approve.

Some religions will not even allow certain positive modern medical interventions, (blood transfusions, etc ) as this also seems to them like "playing God". For me (not being particularly religious, despite my Dad being a priest) it's a matter of considering each case on its merits and hoping to make a humane and right decision.

On the cat subject, I currently have an 18 year old cat who seems to be "on the edge". She seems happy enough but is showing many of the signs of getting near the end. Of course, I'm hoping for a peaceful 'natural' death, but with my previous 2 cats it ended with visits to the vet to help with their end. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

Kiya, I very much admire your determination to stand by your friend. I hope that your loyalty is never subjected to such a test, but she is very lucky to have somebody like you to give such support.

Oh, yes - I understand you very well in this. My decision ist not made easily, Janggut. And though I should have more XP now in "knowing" - it's always the same old struggle as if it were the very first time - one I dread very much, as I have to find out if I can't stand a cat's struggle anymore (I call this cowardice and is no reason for me to push her over the line)- or if she wishes to die herself. Therefore I always call for the Doc's consent as well. Same for my fresh-water fish. I dread "playing God", this responsibility is indeed burdening.

About braindead (coma?), I have talked very often with my friend about this. She told me she greeted this and was not happy to be called back, but she accepted it in these occasions that her time had not come to cross the line for good (and I would try to call her back or "contact" her - just to make sure what her decision really is). She and I have a similar opinion towards spirituality and a very close bond. I hope, I need not fulfill my promise - as I am no relative, I can't/or will not ask the Docs to switch off her machines. No, my promise was about ending her life when she is conscious and asks me explicitely. If it had been entirely up to the Docs she would have been dead already, as they had given her up (she's a puzzle for them). In case anyone wonders => she is not only my best friend but my spiritual teacher as well.

If anyone wants to end her/his life because of a severe pain of the heart (emotionally meant) I take this death wish differently, as my XP so far shows, the death wish is more a wish to end this pain and not die. Here I react differently. No, I don't talk life nice or swing the hammer of religious forbiddings - I try to help by showing this person that she/he is at a crossroad - and a crossroad has several paths to follow, several choices, only one leads to physical death, not all. I try to encourage to look at all roads leading from this. In any case => what I consider important is taking a death wish sincerely and not refusing to talk about this or dodging.

And in my own case? As I have dealt with death several times - sometimes I call it a friend, sometimes a foe - each confrontation with a person standing at this crossroad helped me to make a future decision for my own death clearer - what I need to live and will fight for - or when I wish someone to aid me if I have decided for myself (and only for myself) to let go and cross the line. So, I am very grateful for this XP.
Kiya


Oh, yes - this is what makes my blood boil!!! So-called religion, I call it - manmade religion, I call this. Religion should respect life and aid, not club down. Religion as a cage, a prison, I call this. Depriving oneself to make own decisions and choose in a self-responsible way. ARGH! I was 14 when a Jehovah Witness of 16 was sentenced to death by this. And it was her religion who drove her to this suicidal attempt in the first place. Or to be exact => it was humans and their interpretations about religion.

I respect and admire every person who is embedded in a belief, if this helps to feel protected (even by crossing the line) - and I have met these persons as well. Though I did not share their belief, I saw and felt how protected they felt - and this was beautiful for me. And sad as well for me, if these "teachers" crossed the line.


Yes, I thankfully made this XP about natural death as well - it was a cat of a colleague's father. He was too old and my colleague was too scared. So I took her in and took care of her in the last 3 days - she really passed away peacefully, without a struggle - and I was at her side.



You know what? I felt very honoured when she asked me - her trust is a gift for me (honoured and scared at the same time - and determined not to disappoint this trust)

What's your religion? (Wrong answer and you're OUT of this discussion <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />)

Übereil

my argument will be very short because in a way i have no opinion at all except...
i'm still not convinced it is a matter that may be solved by a law...
as a matter of fact (and that is the argument) it is not in the role of law to allow suicide and help to suicide in any form (and whatever are the reasons this kind of thing still is commiting suicide or help to commit suicide, this is not a moral judgement just a fact and i'm not saying that there is no justified suicide)...
anyway even if the current laws should change (and in some country it begins to change, i think) it won't by any ways make the decision easier... as it is in any case something hard to decide...

edit: actually i will add this:
i have never understood the expression: "right to the death"... for us human mortals death is not a right, it is a fact and it is well known that if we are egals in rights we are not egals in facts... something that can be changed.
this is not a religious argument... as i'm most definitly not even a believer.

master guroth,

life can be examined in many aspects, & that includes religious aspects as well. so to be more aware of what life means to people of different mindset, race, religion, level (in society, emotion, physique, spirituality etc).

but then some say, & i think it's confucius (please correct me if i'm wrong), to understand life one must understand death. one cannot go without the other. & for a person who wishes to die, he/she must first, i feel, learn of the consequences, the aspects of life & death, etc. in another words, just how sound are they in their decision. i do not mean to doubt the decision, it's more to the person him/her self if he/she is not making that decision with forethought & firm belief.

as i said it earlier, one must be firm in belief of one's decision before doing it or forever doomed in regret, in the afterlife (if one believes in that). decision that revolve around life & death should also be made responsibly.

it would be selfish for one who wishes to die but disregard those who still need him/her. for example, let's say a mother who's suffering with cancer & in constant pain. can she just wish to die without thinking of her say, 2 year-old daughter, who has no relative to go to?

so i hope u can see that life, our lives, do not belong only to us but also to those around us, those who have family links, emotional links with us. we are inter-twined with so many people that the loss of our lives WILL affect them, no matter how lonely/neglected/useless we feel about ourselves. which is why i feel we cannot make such decisions until we take into consideration everyone who has relationship with us. & that makes decisions like that very very very complicated.

just as what u said, kiya, those with emotional pain should not be so hasty in making such decision; decision on life & death. in such case, yes, sometimes law does help. malaysian law disallow suicide & the person caught doing so (& somehow still survive) will be arrested. no, i don't think they'll be jailed. rather they'll be admitted for professional help. many countries still disallow or disapprove euthanasia.

personally i hope to not come to such decision for myself as i believe that life without pain is not worth living.

i thought it was what i said...



selfish? that i really don't know... it depends on the circumstances (i.e phase of her cancer...etc...).. anyway for the child it may be not changing anything...
sorry but that's some time already i have stopped trying to judge people's intents... i'm just not competent for that and as it is a very complicated thing...



no no no... my life belongs to me...
my family and those who have emotional links with me belong to my life (and not to me... that's really different)



in the case of euthanasia... it is more a question of physical suffering in many cases... what is really different... there is a limit to what a human being can endure... take the example of torture for instance.



i still think it is a good thing because i don't think a law should be allow help to a form of suicide... i don't think it is something that belongs to the realm of law... but this is not a judgement about persons... anyway it is a matter of freedom not to obey a law...

in this particularly case of euthanasia... i don't know what i would do...
and if i knew, there will be a not so weak possibility that actually i don't do what i was knowing what i would do... arrgh (my english is especially awful here)...

Time to pick the winner. And the winner is:

Me! Me? I WON!!! AGAIN <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" /> If I win the next one I'll have three in a row. Hard to beat right?

Right, the next topic is:

Why is Pornography (the Cure album) much better than Disintegration?

Übereil

As I don't listen to the Cure, I'll have to disregard the words in brakets and say that pornography is definitely better than disintegration! Though disintegration generally doesn't leave to much of a mess behind compared to pornography...but pornography is a bit more fun, so that wins! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

thanks for squatting this thread, Ub <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" />

Bad choice of the topic !
It's too narrow. Most of the people could know Cure's music but they don't really care about one album or another.
In fact i never bought one album of Cure.

I suggest that you choose an other winner who will choose an other topic.

Barta