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Rince:
(and did I mention that some of us old folks tend to babble...


Nope, we spread wisdom - the young ones babble <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

You explained it very well, Rince <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />
Kiya

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Janggut:
& my head is starting to hurt


hey, don't give up <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> this topic will take no prisoners <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

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MASTER_GUROTH:

i like your new sig (maybe because i'm not american and because i like oscar wilde)


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

An interesting footnote to Womble's quote is that a slightly modified version is widely attributed to Georges Clemenceau, who was French Prime Minister before and after the first World War. He apparently said:

"America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to degeneration without the usual interval of civilization."

Clearly it's pretty much identical to the one from Wilde. However, the web-sites and books that quote Clemenceau never seem to acknowledge where he got it from. I guess it�s similar to many of the quotes attributed to modern day presidents that were actually written by their speech writers.

Given the period of history that Clemenceau was Prime Minister of France, it does seem to have been an interesting thing to say. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Maybe he said it before WW1?

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Kiya:

Why is adolescent behaviour so difficult for adults?

And why is adult behaviour so inacceptable for adolescents? What are similarities, what is contradictory?



I think we often understand each other quite well, but choose to appear not to! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />

I think we often exaggerate the lack of understanding. When I see kids behaving in what might seem a weird, stupid or irritating way I don�t usually have much trouble relating it to my own youth. Often I can see a parallel to me right now � I�ve just got a little bit better at modifying my behaviour to suit social expectations!!

As a kid I don�t think I had big trouble understanding the old fogey�s style or logic either � it just didn�t suit me to follow it at the time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

As a parent I feel like I have a duty to try and support and understand a young person without necessarily supporting the way they�re behaving (which just like me � then and now - can be pretty stupid at times)

There�s a quote that I like which goes something like this:

"I�m not completely over the hill yet, but let�s just say I have a great view down both sides now�� ('Over the hill' here means �too old�, �worn out�, etc.).

At 58 I feel like I still have a good view in both directions. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Perhaps I�m just in my �second childhood�. (Edit: Third or fourth actually � Mrs Kris)

Here�s another quote:

"The idea that old age brings wisdom is a myth. But by the time you�re old enough to find this out it�s in your own interests to help keep the myth going".
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />


Kid versus Fogey Example:

Last night we went to the airport to pick up my wife who had been to a conference in Sydney. My young son �discovered� the escalators and the pleasure to be had from trying to run down the up elevator! The Fogey in me said "No! Stop! Dangerous! People will stare and look disapproving!".

The Kid in me said "Rubbish, it�s fun � remember!". So we did it for a bit while the escalator was clear � a manic little boy who was laughing too loudly, and an eccentric grey haired old fool who had one slightly nervous eye on the security guards below. We both had fun, and when I said it was time to stop, he accepted without complaint. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shhh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />

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I've just got a little bit better at modifying my behaviour to suit social expectations!!


Well put! It is usually only the very young and the fairly old who can get away with being "difficult"... like Marquis' glorious vision of The Old Soak! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

Which raises another point: "adults" dealing with young people tend to be thinking from within those social constraints, and are trying for good or ill to ease the path for a new generation. Perhaps also, on the adult side, there is a tinge of both jealousy (of youth and its possibilities...) and fear (for the chld's future if not "properly" guided), which tend to muddy the emotional waters somewhat. Could be difficult to deal with even when recognized, but is often not recognized at all.

Kris - From your elevator story, I'd say you've found the perfect balance! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

From Kahlil Gibran: On Children:

And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

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Great quote Rincewind. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And bloody hard to live up to! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
I seem to remember that my mother sent me that quote when I became a father. Despite this, in her own role as a mother she didn't take a blind bit of notice of it, and shamelessly bossed the whole family around. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />


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Kiya:
I say => everything repeats. So, development is not unique - it's the same old boring cycle. Gee, even the ancient Romans complained about the youngsters at that time - I wish, I could find Cicero's quotation in this to explain.


Was it this one:

�Non tam commutandarum, quam evertendarum rerum cupidi�
(Longing not so much to change things as to overturn them. )

or maybe:

"As I approve of a youth that has something of the old man in him, so I am no less pleased with an old man that has something of the youth. He that follows this rule may be old in body, but can never be so in mind."

I also remember reading that they found ancient scribblings in an Egyptian pyramid moaning that things were going to the dogs, because the young didn�t respect their elders any more!

And I believe that the French have a saying �Plus ca change, plus c�est la meme chose�. Roughly translated as �The more things change, the more they stay the same!� As Womble also pointed out.


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Kiya:
I don't know how old your parents are. I'm 48, we knew and propagated free love (it was before AIDS), we fought for gay rights, women's lib, fought against the Vietnam war, cruise missiles etc. etc. Our music was totally different from the oldies (hard rock time in the 70es ) - get the message here again?


48 eh?! At 58 I�m an absolute sucker for well read intelligent young women... such as librarians.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/kissyou.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />

(If I ever get to win this thread I shall pick Books to discuss � will they survive for much longer in the modern electronic age, which ones do you like/dislike etc�)

What? Trying to blatantly influence the judge with flattery! Me! Never�. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />




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Ach, no Kris, neither quotes are the one I have in mind (Cicero). It was something like "being disrespectful" etc. and ending up with ..." and all write a book". The only funny quote - but I can't find it anymore <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />

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Kris:
48 eh?! At 58 I�m an absolute sucker for well read intelligent young women


Ach no - I was not well read in my youth (apart from political pamphlets). Too busy in protesting against everything and everyone <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> - got my regular colds cause I took part in so many demonstrations, discussed the nights through (and errhm... got up too late for school/university <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> ) - too busy in trying stuff out, like �bereil does now <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />

I liked the way you had fun with your son very much <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />! And here I fully agree with you. It's the young who come up with old/new ideas, the ones we may have forgotten, when we invented the wheel again.

I love heated discussions with youths - even about Shakespeare. I called Hamlet a depressive sucker a few weeks ago and could have shaken Ophelia cause she didn't simply kick and leave him. The 2 young ladies I chatted with defended him bravely! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> - same for Romeo and Juliet. They should have simply run away from the start and save pupils having to interpret this - the 2 ladies were shocked and defended romantic love again. These are the moments where I have the feeling => ah, the sandbox is not closed, generations CAN play in it together.

But these moments are rare - it's mostly eyeing each other across a moat. A moat dug by both generations BTW. And it's nice if I see a bridge to cross this, if the other side is willing to see me as a human being and not as an authoritative nagging oldie. It's nice if I'm confronted with a new, surprising argument. Am I nostalgic? Gee, hope not. I don't want to repeat this period again, with all its storms, inner insecurity etc. (and kidney probs, cause I wore hipsters, sat in the wet grass and discussed <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> )
Kiya

and about wisdom? No, given up waiting for it in my case - seemed to have passed me unscathed. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />

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Kiya:
Ach no - I was not well read in my youth .


Yes but you're well read now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And from where I stand you are still young now too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

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Tsktsk, flattery will get you no nomination, Kris <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" /> (bad debating technique - did I catch you red-handed now? I'm still trying to find out the methods)
Kiya

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have to agree with kris on that (though i would like to disagree just to decrease his chance of winning <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" /> ). chicks with brains are very very sexy. the brainier they are, ..... *drools* <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

on topic;

talk about bridging the gap, what i know works is the wisdom to shut up & let the other party talk/rant/bitch. i [nocando] u not! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> i find that if i am to shut my trap & let the other person mouth off, he/she would love to talk to me & fire away. of course, i won't go 'uh huh' or 'i agree with u' or 'yes, go on' or 'mm hmm' <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> that is so chauvenistic! if i disagree, i would let him/her finish then fire my volleys. that is my way of respecting their views as i do listen to them & take note of their words. of course, i may not be right as i do get some of my volleys back on my face. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

kris, i like the quote about a young man with an old man in him. sounds like me! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> was old in thought when younger & as i get older i feel younger. to be cheesily honest, i don't feel older at all. just more aware of things. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> at 29, i still feel like a teenager stepping into 20's.

*janggut is a late bloomer*


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The root of this eternal conflict - as this is what I believe it is, hence the frustrating, vicious cycle - is the time that overlaps between letting loose on the adult side, and the cry for freedom on the adolescent side.

Unfortunately maturing is a process that requires time, a fact of life that impatient youth rather does not care to accept easily. And transferring responsibility requires trust, which also does not come by the flick of a switch but has to be earned as much as respect. And adults tend to value them highly, possibly because it cost them so much.

Deleguation of authority and responsibility is too often seen as a loss - and the gaining of authority and responsibility is too often misunderstood as a gaining of power.

There may be ways too shorten the period between enlightened generations in an educated society - but the basic conflict will always be a negotiation of a contract of generations. If it results in a win-win situation the contract will work - if not, the contract will be torn to shreds by "lawyers".


In times of crisis it is of the utmost importance not to lose your head (Marie Antoinette)
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Tsktsk, flattery will get you no nomination...(bad debating technique...)

[color:"orange"]Proper debating technique: [/color] The Induhvidual debating technique involves four steps:

1. Exaggerate your opponent's statement into an absurd absolute.
2. Make an inappropriate analogy.
3. Change the topic to something easier to defend.
4. Claim victory.

(courtesy of Dilbert Newsletter)

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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> I'll try and practise Rincewind. Dilbert has his finger on the pulse!



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Kiya:
I love heated discussions with youths - even about Shakespeare. I called Hamlet a depressive sucker a few weeks ago and could have shaken Ophelia cause she didn't simply kick and leave him.


I�d certainly say that the older I get the more I�d like to give Hamlet a slap or two. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" />

He�s a very self-absorbed young man, and something of a model for every angst ridden teenager and self-destructive rock star since.

And as I get older I get more sympathetic with old Polonius (in fact I sometimes use �Polonius� as my nickname on some forums). He�s the classic well meaning waffling old fellow. Handing out stuffy advice to his daughter that causes a heap of trouble, and rabbiting on to his son with well intentioned instructions that would be met with a roll of the eyes today. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

And when Hamlet accidentally kills Polonius he spends about 5 seconds dismissing the corpse and then goes straight back to his favourite subject � HIMSELF, HIS feelings, HIS anger, etc etc.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sleepey.gif" alt="" />

(BTW, As I appear to have failed with flattery - what's your position on bribery.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />. Seriously though, as Janggut said a few posts ago - the rules aren't strict on this thread it's more of a "free for all". The topic setter is free to pick a winner on any basis they like - because a post made them laugh, or cry. Because it struck a chord, or because they just liked something that was said. No big deal rules or fancy justification required! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )


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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

I've just realised that I missed a Golden Opportunity to make a corny joke on the previous topic (and I do like puns, bad jokes etc. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

We were talking about the case of a religion that bans its members having blood transfusions because they say that their God wouldn't want it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

If I had been awake, I could have said that we should not be afraid to give positive medical help because God might not like it. I could have claimed that such help was <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" />

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goes straight back to his favourite subject - HIMSELF

hmmm... a common enough failing. Youth certainly has no monopoly there! Now, Romeo and Juliet, the "true love" twits <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" /> ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

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Janggut:
I have to agree with kris on that (though i would like to disagree just to decrease his chance of winning <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" /> ). chicks with brains are very very sexy. the brainier they are, ..... *drools* <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />


Perhaps that's also one of the differences between the young and the old?

I think when I was young I was more influenced by looks - the flowing hair and long eyelashes, the soft curve of a ... but, hey, you know what I mean. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

When I got older and had some real life experience I came to realise that other things were sexier in the long run. Things like brains, self-confidence, etc. And very high on the list - ENTHUSIASM! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" /> Enthusiasm for life, but also for ... ummm, 'horizontal dancing' shall we say... Model girl looks quickly grow dull if there's no fire to back them up, and a plain looking person can light up and sizzle when the mood is right! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/kissyou.gif" alt="" />

(And I did learn not to call women 'chicks' too... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> )


Quote


to be cheesily honest, i don't feel older at all. just more aware of things. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> at 29, i still feel like a teenager stepping into 20's.

*janggut is a late bloomer*


My mother in law, who was a great character, said that even in her 60s she still felt 16 inside. I know that there's still plenty of little boy left in me, and I hope that part never fully grows up. I'd miss him terribly. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

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I think I'm going to loose this discushion since:

I'm young, you're old. I know what it's like to be young. You know what it's like to be old, AND you remember what it's like to be young. And you've got enought experience to reflect over it. But over to the real subject.

I don't think my generation has the same need to revolt. My parents are from the so called 68 generation (in 1968 youths realized that grownups had been lying to them for years. That's when the proggresive whave started in Sweden. The 68 generation didn't have parents who where rebels. The next generation didn't either so they became rebels. Then the 68 generation got us. Since we don't whant to be like our parents we won't become rebels. This isn't the only explenation, I know that. But it's probably a part of it), so they had allready revolted. So I have no need to do it. And saveing the world: shyure, it would be fun, but I will never get the opportunity, so why bother? And I'm supposed to try new stuff out, but instead I've realized this: whitout a good education I won't get a good job. So I blow ALL my fuse on school (even though I don't know what to do afterwards...). When I grown up? I will probably get a job, a house, some kids etc. And Kiya, you say everything returns, nothing changes, but take a look at the kids in the 1800:th sencury. They the same fashion as we have, right? Well OK things come back, but they cange a little. But in the long run, a little is enought to make a big difference.

�bereil (will come back with some good quotes, but my brother needs the computer DESPERATELY)


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I'M BACK <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" />!

So, let's do some serious quoteing:

"The old man believs in everything, the middle aged man misstrust everything oand the young man knows everything."

Oscar Wilde (might not be the exact words since I don't read filosopybooks in english...)

The thing about young is true (mostly, there ARE spesial situations, but that goes for everything. Manchester United included. And as I've said, I AM honest), so then the other two statements are probably true as well... Oh my god, I'm OLD <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />!

I have this book here with lot's of great quotes for other ocations. I'm looking through it because I know that the quote I'm looking for is in this. Examples of good quotes is Schopenhauers "An idio allways finds someone that is even dumber and who admires him". There are others as well (and some are even better), but let's take stick to that one for now...

Just have to say: If a man goes down in a depression because of outer pressure, it's the man that's well and the surroundings that's sick. Ronald D Laing said that.

Read through the whole book and didn't find it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />. Anywhay, it goes something like this:
By 20 you have solved the meaning of life. By 30 you start to question it and by 40 you realized that you haven't solved it at all. I can only guess who said that. I feel like 40 btw, since I know I have no idea what the meaning of life is. Maybe I've solved it by 40... But in that case I'll probably realize I'm wrong by 60 anywhay.

�bereil


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"When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years." ~Mark Twain, "Old Times on the Mississippi" Atlantic Monthly, 1874

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I can only judge German youths ok? Well, in my time it was important to wear a certain fashion (boots, parka, long hair etc.) - the youths now wear their fashion => where's the difference? None IMO. Both youth generations determined that they belonged to a group - a group differing from the adults. C'est tout.

>Big Snip<

Yeah, our parents lacked time/courage/intelligence as well - of course they did! And why? They had never been young, they crawled out of an egg and woke up as old adults

I think some adults have forgotten their youth - and I believe this as well => some youths are blind. Can you imagine how boring it is for me to see same old wheel being invented for 23 yrs now?
Kiya


Well said, and my oh my you are bringing back lotsa memories .... RollingStones = Badboys <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> Beatles = Good boys (well at least until John Lennon's sit in) who wrote IMHO some of the best Lyrics I've ever heard, to this day <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


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When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years." ~Mark Twain, "Old Times on the Mississippi


I love this quote. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

Sums up my feelings very well on the subject.

I knew we could poke some serious comments out of Ubereil! Nice! He may have a point in that each generation does change slightly. I'm not SO pessimistic as Kiya, allthough I see where she is coming from for sure.

As always, we can only speak from personal experience. I definately have a better job than my parents did, I am also more educated. I still work for 'da man' though. I am also progressing through life much as they did with the exclusion of going to university. Get a job, get married, get a house etc.

So back to the topic, why do adolescents and adults never get on? Ignorance, lack of experience on the part of the younger. Stubborness and arrogance on behalf of the elder. Maybe there's a middle point where we are wise and open-minded. Passionate and level-headed. Probably not though...

I guess this is always the way it will be. I don't think I'd change it either. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Growing up was painful and fun at the same time!


" Road rage, air rage. Why should I be forced to divide my rage into seperate categories? To me, it's just one big, all-around, everyday rage. I don't have time for distinctions. I'm too busy screaming at people. " -George Carlin
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