Larian Studios Forums General Chat Chat (Anything) The Argumentative Git thread

Could it have been Socrates instead of Cicero?

Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in
place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room;
they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their
food and tyrannize their teachers.

(Socrates, 5th Century BC)

I have several friends who are teachers, and they could have made pretty much identical comments today. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Well put. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"Painful and fun" just about nails it, and maybe throw in "embarassing" too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />
I can still remember some of the worst moments from 40 years ago with absoute clarity (just don't ask me to remember what happened an hour ago...) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" /> ..

I argued a great deal with my Mother as a teenager, but as I got older (exactly as in that great Mark Twain quote) I eventually began to see it from her side too. I realised that one of the main reasons we fought was that we were so alike - same faults! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> We got on well in later years - although the 12,000 mile distance between us may have helped. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />

And as you and Ubereil suggest, things have changed a little - I have developed a few new unique faults of my own.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

some say each generation has something to focus on; patriotism, social reformation; always for a greater good.

in malaysia, my parents' generation fought against communism, insurgecy. the generation before was under british rule & faced issue of independence. & before that, was ruled by a white rajah (believe it or not, borneo had a king who's a white man). each strives for something. for a common good.

today's youth are facing very different things; furthering themselves with education, obtaining better quality of life & status in life, all that pertains to modern living. the youths have very vague idea of the past as things have move so rapidly & it was a little over 50 years ago when japanese occupied malaysia, then british 'liberated' till independence 47 years ago (41 for my state) & faced insurgency from indonesia (they fervently believed borneo should belong to them) 37 year ago. later on then we have education reformation, social & economic reofrmations, which change every few years or so till today. we may not be as advanced as japan, korea, singapore but mindset of youth have changed so much due to the success of the reformation that they can't help but enjoy the fruits. they don't have a common enemy to fight, no big shift in economy or social environment that they have to deal with; youths today have not much drive other than for their own. patriotism is a novelty in a way. youths look longingly at the western/advanced countries, wishing to move there & stay there.

ubereil is right in some ways in this view. actions of the affect the future. the hardwork of the past generation paid off & today's generation is reaping fruits of the labor. will today's generation work hard to ensure good fruits will be reaped by future generation? apart from that, can loyalty be maintained or instilled in the future generation so that they will make sure the country continues to thrive?

ooppss... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" /> where did that headache come from? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

the world is changing. we're getting more global in many ways. youths are no longer tied to a place or society in his/her locality. this forum is a testament of that.

of course, in kiya's perspective, if all things are to be broken down to fundamental components, things do not change at all.

maybe the main trouble between adolescents and older ones is:

when we grow older we are guilty and victim of a fundamental contradiction:
1) we learn that actually we do not know many things, i don't say we are growing old as Socratle ("i know that i don't know") but more exactly we become conscious that we know real few things even if we're not ever willing to admit it.
2) we take the few things we know and our habits very seriously, because it has become our main link to the world so even if we know that our habits and our knowledge has some uncertain bases it is very painful to see it recalled (remembered?)...

on the other hand adolescents are not yet in this contradiction because they have no real habits yet (or more exactly they're just discovering what it is to have habits) and they have no real knowledge either of anything so they think they are knowing all because they are not knowing enough to distinguish all from a few things (this is not a reproach, just they can't)... so it is a quite not so odd consequence that our habits and our lack of knowledge seem strange to them...

some have said what i'm trying to say replacing habits with order... but definitly i don't like this notion of order... so...

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

@kris

i think Clemenceau's source was in french XIXth century philosophy and scociology:
auguste comte and another one whose name has fled from memory for now... (i will edit this post if it's coming back soon)

We do get along, we just have some difficulties understanding eachother. and sorry for being a unhelpable (if you can say that in English, you can in Swedish anyway) Besserwisser. It's in my genes so I can't really help it (that's what I meant with unhelpable).
If I'm not quite wrong today is the day when Kiya's supposed to pick the winner, isn't it? I can't say I'm jelous because picking a winnr will be really hard, since a lot of pepole have said a lot of great things (inkludeing me... But I won't win anyway, and the reason I have allready mentioned. And maybe we should add the fact that I won the last topic I participated in as another reason. We'll do that).

Übereil

Hm, could be <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> - but the book part is missing? In any case => a wonderful quote, hm? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> thanks, Kris <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/kissyou.gif" alt="" />
Kiya

you're wrong, Übereil - I thought a longlong time since yesterday, whom I would give my vote - and it is you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shame.gif" alt="" /> - congrats, winner <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" />



This quote of yours rang a very strong chord in my heart. You're right! There's no use really in me telling you that adolescence is an everlasting boring cycle, as you have not completed it. Why? Well, you have to experience both yourself => youth and age. And it's not only you - but all adolescents who have to walk this cycle, otherwise it wouldn't be one. It wouldn't help you if I'd say: "I have eaten" and you are still hungry, right? (and it doesn't help me stating: Heavens, I've eaten, why can't they understand?)
Thank you for this sentence - I will keep it in mind and heart, hoping it will aid me if I'm impatient with adolescent behaviour again. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/kissyou.gif" alt="" />



This here, made me sad though - but it's ok. Each group should experience and make its own priorities.



Yes, I guess this is the pendulum - swings back and forth. Maybe the policy of small steps is more lasting than large jumps.

@to all others => you all made great contributions - wise, funny, thoughtful ones - I will read this over several times - as I was really looking for an answer (for myself - because there are times when I want to leave my job. I'm not bored by answering the same over and over again - but a certain kind of adolescent behaviour has started to wear me out - and I tend to fail seeing a sense in my job. In case anyone wonders => Even though I'm a scientific librarian I chose to rather job for 1/2 yr in an insurance company and wait for a vacancy in a public library than take offers from a university and later on a school library. I already knew in my early 20es, I would not stand a certain behaviour without getting very unhappy. Due to financial restrictions, the pupil/student clientel is streaming since 10-15 yrs now - I'm exposed to behaviour I dislike. So, the choice I made has outlived me - I always preferred to work with an adult clientel coming out of own interest and not being forced by school or university.)

I know, Übereil won before me - but... some of you said, I'm allowed to choose freely? And in this case => my heart chose <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shame.gif" alt="" /> - his sentence helped me a lot.
Kiya

Great way to choose Kiya - let the heart decide. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I was also very struck by the same piece that you highlighted:



It stopped me in my tracks more than anything else that any of us wrote. I almost felt like I was cheating after that... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Congratulations Ubereil. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

Yes, it was the wisdom of the jester - said in a very simple way and containing a lot. Thanks, Kris <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />
Kiya

BAD FORM, KIYA!
Now that I've got the whole weekend to argue you pick me as the winner, that's just bad form!
And just to make it whorse I've got to pick a subject! What now?
Oh well, let's just pick the reservtopic:
Nazism vs Communism. Which is whorse (or better, if you like) of the two? The Nazis have got Germany in the 30 the Communists have got the eas block in the cold war. Lot's of pepole have died because of both ideologies, so now I'm asking: Which one is the whorst ideology (or best, if you like) of the two?

Übereil (let's go to bed. I'm tired you know <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />)

maybe because i am jew (or at least from jewish origin) there is no nazism vs communism for me... communism has sometimes been very antisemistic as many others but has never dreamed to exterminate one race... and some other people just because of what they were (not only jews but communists, gays, czigans and i'm sorry i think i forgot some)... what was a fundment of nazi dogma.
stalinism (and maybe not communism, but the debate is not to know if stalinism or communism is the same) has committed dreadful atrocities too... true. It had never ideologically founded as nazism was... and so, i'm sorry to say it for stalinism victims sake in a way it was less awful...
i just can't accept this equality too often heard: nazism=communism.

and sorry ubereil... i say it friendly but i don't think it is a very good choice of topic (as you were very critical for some others maybe you could understand that)...

I agree M_G, even a blabbermouth like me is going to struggle to chat for long about this.

I guess I don't know that much about Communism, except that it's been described as a great idea that nobody ever tried. In other words, the supposed ideology got swamped and twisted by the usual human failings and corruptions. I don't think that Stalin and his kind are a fair representation of the ideals of communism, any more than Islam should be judged by some of the people who are currently getting a lot of publicity. (Or Christians by the Crusades, or whatever...)

As for Nazism, I know very little about its origins and rise. I'm sure that many people got swept up by the initial appeals to restore German pride and dignity, and then became increasingly uneasy with the direction it took. Too much of what I have heard from those times has been overpainted with propaganda - both Allied propaganda (that I was fed a steady diet of as I grew up after WW2) or Nazi propaganda seen on old newsreels. Similar story for Communism. So, not being a historian, I don't really know the reasons why either managed to gather so many people to their banners.

I'm really not a big fan of mass ideologies or "isms" of any kind. Except perhaps Individualism. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But having said that, I went through same hippy thing that Kiya describes above - a phenomenon where we all loudly proclaimed our individuality by banding together and behaving just like each other! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

No problem, MG, I understand you (and I'm not taking too much offence either). It wasn't the best topic, and it wasn't the most worked through topic. Maybe we should change. Give me your oppinion on that, and in case not too many speaks heavily against it maybe we COULD change. Argue a little about that, and I think of a better topic during the time.

Übereil (Hmm... Why is Manchester United SO much better than everybody else? No, that's not it...)

Since pepole are argueing like mad about my last post, I have decided to end the voteing about changeing the topic. It ended 2-0 in favor of changeing. So, a new topic is to be changed. I don't think I can get a topic in the class of Kiya's but anyway:
Abortion. Right or wrong? (in case of misunderstanding due to misspelling, abortion has to do with interrupting pregnancy).

Übereil

thanks for having changed the topic anyway, Ub

Yeah, now pepole are argueing like mad (no replies <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" />. Absolutely NO REPLIES!!! ARRG <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" />!!!!)

Übereil (Where is everybody? Where's the party? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />)

This topic is as, if not more, ideologically sensitive as the Nazism (which btw I would have broadened to Fascism for the sake of internationality and actuality in current politics) versus Communism.

Anything so much related to personal beliefs and ideologies - and a biological relation, half of mankind cannot possibly feel itself - is hard to discuss factually. (OK, maybe some of you do not want to discuss factually - but then its fictionally, and therfore not argumentative <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />)

Why is this a topic in our times? Because it is technologically possible.

In old times, when this was not possible, society had to find a way to cope with the problem of unwanted pregnancies (the argument for medical risks does not count here, as they were not known, respectively were accepted as an act of god or other force majeure) - and it did in a number of ways, some of which not nice at all.

Now we have advanced medical technology, and can "solve" the problem, quickly, cleanly, permanently. The issue is heatedly dicussed under aspects of ethics and morale mainly. But, the technological solution being available and the easy (and, sorry, "cheap") way out, the promotion of alternatives is lacking sadly. And often so, because the cost would have to be borne by society, and the soliditarity to carry the financial burden for the promotion and preservation of wealth is bigger than for the preservation of human life (if it is not one's own).

i don't want to enter in the moral ground of this topic...
as a matter of fact i didn't want to argue this topic either...
but just i have to remember two very factual things...

first: if laws allowing women to abort have been made in many countries it was because there was a public health problem...

second: it is entirely false (at least in france) that it is easy to abort... most often many alternative issues are proposed with a certain insistance (insisting?... well substantive for to insist...)

So far GlanceALot is in the lead, since his post looks more advanced than Master Guroth's. Winner will be picked tomorrow.

Übereil (why doesn't anybody post some arguments? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> Is it me?)