Larian Studios Forums General Chat Chat (Anything) The Argumentative Git thread

Yes, have to agree - abortion laws in Germany are not that easy either now. Since the Pope intervened a lot of consulting departments lead by the Roman Church were shut down here in Germany. So, religious females, just wanting to be informed about alternatives, are standing in front of closed doors.

Here in Germany you need 3 papers to abort: Your doc - a consultation and ... forgot the third (I think, it was the clinic approving of this, if you didn't want to have it done by the doc himself).

My opinion =>
It's not a matter of wrong/right in general. Sometimes it is necessary IMO - from the females I know of => it had never been an easy decision for them -

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and Glance, if you think it's a clean way => you have obviously never accompanied a female going this way <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" /> - and if you think RU is "clean" - have you ever sat next to a female having taken that pill? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" />

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There are SO many reasons why a female aborts and I can't say, they did that easily. What has changed due to improving pre-diagnosis to find out if the baby is genetically damaged or not - has lead to more decision pains for a female.

I think this: females in this situation need understanding, support and encouragement. So they can find out in peace what they want to do, as a lot are in state of shock if their pregnancy state was positive and they were unprepared for this - in a supportive climate - not a stigmatising one. I have viewed too many discussions where men wanted to decide over their fate <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" /> - and a lot of females are left terribly alone in this situation <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />

Kiya

[color:"yellow"]Edit, 19th Oct.2004: Although the time's up for this topic, I edited my post, so noone may think, everything was directed at Glance. He chose the factual approach, I the emotional one. Both sides have their equal justification[/color]

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

sure! if saying something that is not corresponding to reality is more advanced...

i'm not saying that Glance is wrong, i'm saying that one (and in fact 2) of his arguments is (are) false or at least not so uniformetly true, what is entirely different...as a matter of fact i'm quite sure that when a woman wish to abort in france her life begins to be a fighter's one... social services who have to examin her asking are sometimes (and more frequently that it is usually believed) so afraid not to be promoting enough palliative/alternative solutions that they just seek to impose them, treating her like a child that wouldn't know what she does (i know it was a largely current definition of the woman until beginning of XXth century but...)
i'm not saying that aborting should be encourage (this would be stupid and anyway no one has never asked for that... but i'm entirely sure there is a point afterward it is really useless and worst than that to try to discourage her...)

i'm sorry i think a woman is as able as anyone else to make up her mind about that than anyone else...

i will add that aborting is not born with the laws that were allowing it nor with the technical progresses unfortunately... it existed long before and it was more than often a butchery with proportionnaly more lifes at sake... i'm not even sure that the laws allowing women to abort have provocated a real and significant increase of the number of abortions... but it has allowed better conditions and even better assistance to the decision's making (even if i'm not allways convinced by the quality of this assistance)

i said i didn't wish to argue on this topic because i was waiting to see it wasn't only an arguing between men... as it is a decision that belongs to women it would be a bit surrealistic... thanks to kiya...

One of the possitive things about abortion in Sweden (and after reading MG's post, it seems like it's not an obvious thing. I might have misunderstanded him, though) is that the women in question allways has the last word. She is allways the one who decides. Not the doctor, the women. Well, OK that goes for the first three month's, the next three months she needs a reason (like a severe helth-risk if she carries on with the pregnancy), and after thast she has to give birth. But if a women is in the sixth month, I shure hope she has decided to carry on with it. Otherwise she has made a quite heavy miss.

Übereil

I know a lot of females who aborted and those who didn't. I wish, they would freely have the last word as you said, Übereil. It's not that easy: Morals, religion, men, authorities, laws => all want to decide FOR them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" /> - and if I think of those communities "right for life" who even KILL docs who do abortions => I get really mad!
Kiya

I aborted - and it was my best friend, a female who is strictly AGAINST abortions, who held my hand and accompanied me during all 3 steps. Her religious belief and her friendship towards me had a strong inner fight. She was able to put aside her belief and help me as a friend. And our friendship did not break - her pregnancy was a very difficult one, her baby nearly died. She was very ill and I took my vacations to help her and her husband take care of the baby until she was out of danger. See? Now would you say in this case, it was a case of right/wrong?

Did I ask her for help? No, I didn't want her to be in this inner conflict. She offered her help - and she was great in that.

women have theorically the last word in france too...
theorically...
as they are often very young some 'counsellors' (and i don't speak about the family or the lack of family in some cases because that's another problem) have some very strange way to try to dissuade them sometimes anyway... (ok i generalize maybe a bit too much) but i have heard of many stories of administrative complications... because individuals privilegied their ideology to their jobs...
one of this stories was my half sister 2 years ago (she was 17)... well actually she has aborted just before the first legal delay... but i'm sure it was not easy... and i was very shocked but some things that was said to her by the social (so called) help... and it was not a unique case i must say... that's why i'm a bit jumpy about this point...

there are delays in france too, shorter than in Sweden if i remember correctly, and it is absolutly normal that there are delays (for both medical and moral reasons)... i also think that more the abortion is late more it is hard for the woman...

In some countries they kill to prove murder is wrong. (Ok, that's a death sentence argument, but it works pretty well here to.)

Now THAT'S hypocarcy if anything.

And MG, about the "the later, the more painfull", you're probably right. But on the other hand we DO have pretty good narcotics to sleep pepole down for a coupple of hours (acually, my fater has a collegue in work who was supposed to do some kind of surgery, not shure what kind though. Anyway, they gave him an injektion, and he looked around for a second. Then he said "Right, should we start then?". The doctors told him they had just finnished <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />).

Übereil

you have a bit too read the advises for arguing, ub...

so you are changing my words...

i was not saying "more late, more painfull" but "more late, more hard"...

and i wasn't speaking (or a t least not only) about physical pain...

It seems like I missunderstood you after all <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shame.gif" alt="" />. Sorry for that. And you're probably right anyway.
And I don't really need to argue, since I'm the judge, anyway. I'm just putting some personal thoughts and oppinions.

Übereil

PS tomorrow at 1 o'clock (or maybe a little bit later) it's Time. Then I will announce the winner DS

True, very true, MG. I know some cases like this myself. And it states my opinion => it's not made "easy" for females, And counseling is often abused to enforce one own opinion unto the female. I appreciate it very much that you still choose to participate with your XP, because you're jumpy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> (is not easy for you, hm?)
Kiya

I’m a bit late to jump in now (excellent weekend with lots to do <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> ) but as in most things I’m ‘pro choice’. In other words I would prefer to allow people some room for individual choices.

I respect the view of people who would always take a foetus to full term, no matter what the cost or risk to the mother’s life, or the potential quality of life of the child. Just as long as they apply that belief to themselves and not seek to punitively apply it to everybody else.

There are many reasons that mothers choose not to go through with making their baby, surrounding the mental and physical health of the mother and/or the child. This may include cases of rape, damage to the mother or the child, etc. But even if the birth is without problems an unexpected or unwanted child can literally ruin a woman’s life in the wrong circumstances. I don’t think that we have the right to say that the ‘rights’ of an undeveloped foetus always automatically over-ride the ‘rights’ of the mother. I’ve never been involved in such a choice, but I’m sure that it’s horrifically hard to make. Those who have to make it should be helped and supported, not punished.

‘Rights’ are always a tricky issue. I’m sitting here with hundreds of thousands of potential children just below my belt. Do all those sperm have a ‘right’ to get the chance at life? Should all those eggs that women produce get a chance to meet “Mr Right” and become a baby, and not be consigned to death each month? When the sperm meets the egg is that then a baby with full ‘rights’ or just a potential baby – albeit a step or two up the ‘rights’ ladder from the sperm and eggs? Does that moment the automatically rule out any ‘rights’ the mother may have, or should some leeway be allowed for a few more weeks until that event has been confirmed to the potential parents?

Kiya’s example of her friend who supported Kiya despite her own conflicting beliefs exactly illustrates what I would see as an admirable and humitarian way to go.

Exactly, Kris <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> nicely brought to the point. Punitively => way of punishment? Goes for a lot of other life issues as well.
Kiya

Though, I'm sure a lot of tiny "Krises" would make the world a lot more funnier and bring in mischievous laughter <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Well, it's time to announce the winner (as a matter of fact, time was three hours ago, but my brother was waching a film on the computer so I didn't get the chance):

Even though Kris etered quite late, his post were pretty good, and it clearly expressed his pooinion, and why he's got it. He didn't win...

Kiya's posts were allso quite good, spiced up with her own (and allways interesting) experiences. She didn't win either... (most because she won two rounds ago... And must just say that she argues pretty well for not knowing how to argue, don't you think?)

GlanceALot's post looked more advanced than MG first post. That's about the only possitive things I can say about it (if you disagree, then SCREW YOU!!! YOUR FATHER WAS A HAMSTER AND YOUR MOTHER SMELLED OF ELDENBERRY!!! I BLOW MY SNEEZE IN YOUR DIRECTION, YOU AND YOUR STUPID ENGLISH KNNNICKETS!!!!!!!!!)

And left is Master Guroth. Who acually won. his posts weren't better than anybody elses (Glance's not included), but for not argueing, you argued pretty well <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />. And, since you haven't won for quite a while, I picked you as the winnr.

(In case you missed the winner) The winner is:

MASTER GUROTH!!! Pick a nice topic, will you?

Übereil

Congrats, MG! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" /> - now pick a nice juicy topic to chew upon


Advantage of my gender - we're born to argue <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />
Kiya

I don't like to argue if i have not a very good reason to do it.
For exemple when some people are complaining needlessly about Beyond Divinity i can argue very well.

Barta

And if you trained here, you would be even better <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />.

Übereil

Oh no, she's growing confidence... WE'RE DOOMED <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />.

Übereil

thanks

new topic is: are newspapers still informing people or are they just good to buy for making fires in winter (or playing with the dog if you like it better)???...

Good topic M_G (and congratulations on turning 80 recently. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" /> Oh no, wait a minute, that was MG the make of car, not M_G the master arguer.... )

Newspapers:

I think that the key to the modern role of newspapers is summed up in a made up English word - Infotainment. It's a mixture of Information and Entertainment.

Somebody made the word up to describe the approach now taken by many TV programs, neswpapers, magazines etc.

Unfortunately, newspaper owners find that long, deeply researched articles cost a lot to produce and aren't all that popular in the mass market. The magazines that still try to take this approach have limited circulation compared to newspapers.

What sells is a blend of informative material liberally spiced with scandal, sex, outrage and endless crap about so called 'celebrities'. The newspaper that I buy (The Australian) has some good reporting, and interesting columns, but it still quite deliberately spices up topics to stir people up and get its readers and its columnists arguing with each other. For instance, the paper will choose to print readers' letters that say something provocative and then the next day there will be a flood of attacks or supports. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> Readers seem to prefer a bit of competitive action in their papers.

But 2 or 3 days is about the longest they keep 'debates' going and then it's on to the next drama or controversy. Very much like the Argumentative Git thread really! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

I stil enjoy my daily read, but I take it all with a pinch of salt. If you've ever read the coverage of an event or topic that you happen to have been involved with yourself, you quickly realise that the few hours a reporter gets for research and writing is often not enough to give a lot of depth or accuracy.

So for me it's Entertainment, Information, and excellent fire lighting material - in roughly that order. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

Nespapers aren't for news, they're for stories.

'nuff said.

Rats! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shame.gif" alt="" />

I waffle on for several paragraphs, gnawing away at the topic. Then along comes Lews who makes pretty much the same point, but he manages to do it just as well with only SEVEN words! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />


I guess that the difference between a young guy from the internet age, and an old guy from the quill and inkwell era..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />