Larian Studios Forums General Chat Chat (Anything) The Argumentative Git thread

Dr. J, who died in 1998, was a blind activist, and a long-time leader in the National Federation for the Blind and other organizations. The bit quoted previously was in response to a government memo (Dept of Education): "SUBJECT: Language Reference to Persons with a Disability", which might explain the heightened language in the piece.

Dr. J cites the memo, and then gives a copy of a resolution passed at the NFB convention, which includes this passage:

"... just as an intelligent person is willing to be so designated and does not insist upon being called a person who is intelligent, and a group of bankers are happy to be called bankers and have no concern that they be referred to as persons who are in the banking business, so it is with the blind -- the only difference being that some people (blind and sighted alike) continue to cling to the outmoded notion that blindness (along with everything associated with it) connotes inferiority and lack of status..."

I took his point to be that political correctness only puts its carefully worded labels on persons and things it considers somehow inadequate. As in the charitable "oh, the poor creature...". He's having none of that.

Speaking at a different NFB convention, he said: "We must win true equality in society, but we must not dehumanize ourselves in the process; and we must not forget the graces and amenities, the compassions and courtesies which comprise civilization itself and distinguish people from animals and life from existence."

It is those "graces and amenities" extended to all, not the awkward constraints of political correctness, that line the path to respect.

<< on a more personal note: a close friend of mine, who has a debilitating disease that has finally put her in a wheelchair, says she really hates the way people try to act and speak "correctly" around her... makes her even more uncomfortable and self-conscious. She says she likes being with me because I treat her just as badly as ever! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> >>

Good for Dr J. - I like his message. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But I still think that he's waffling when he talks about "current effete sensibilities". He asks for equal treatment, and he got it - I criticised him, and I'm not about to be intimidated by his blindness, or patronise him by changing what I say because of it.

I still think he's grandstanding somewhat (a not uncommon indulgence that many of the disabled activists that I know will sometimes slip into. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ). Perhaps I've just seen too many activists switch seamlessly from complaining about the way the community talk about them, to moaning about being patronised when people actually DO make an effort to change their language and attitudes. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sad.gif" alt="" />

There's a slogan doing the rounds at the moment which says "See the person not the disability" which seeks to shift the focus back to the bits that work and away from the bits that don't, which he may or may not have approved of.

However, for all the fine words about "true equality" and not seeing the disability, the fact remains that the blind cannot see. They will therefore never be fully equal in all respects, just as the old (no matter what you call them) do not have the capacity of younger people, and intellectually disabled people do not have 'special gifts' or whatever and mostly just don't have the same capabilities that most other people do.

Dr J accuses people of "continu(ing) to cling to the outmoded notion that blindness (along with everything associated with it) connotes inferiority and lack of status..." But who is being Politically Correct here? The blind do have inferior vision, inferior capabilities in many areas of mobility and so on, and the functional status of a blind person in many everyday situations is quite clearly going to be behind that of a fully functioning person, all other attributes being equal. They do not mesh easily into a predominently sighted world, unless considerable effort is made (by the sighted majority) to accommodate them. He's not really anti-PC, just some aspects of the language. I think that he does want us to be PC, but on his terms. He wants blind people to be treated 'just like anyone else', but unfortunately they aren't the same, so a division will always exist.

The key is probably in Womble's word - "respect". We need to try and respect and accept our differences.

Unfortunately though, we are all a bit embarassed around people with disabilities, so we act awkwardly until we get to know them a bit better, and get some cues on how to behave. There is nothing new or Politically Correct about that - it's always been that way, even in the pre PC days when I used to do work for our own local Blind Institute.

And now that I work with intellectual disability, every day I see the same reactions that your friend talks about (and good on you for being as rude as ever!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> ). But again, it's not a new or PC phenomenon.

I'm old - I deal with it. I'm getting forgetful, and physically I'm losing many of the skills that I had, but I don't expect anybody to pretend otherwise. I fully expect that I will be gradually regarded as 'inferior' and 'of lower status' because I'm old and because DAMMIT - it's true, I'm less 'equal' than I once was! But if people want to call me a Senior Citizen, or refer to me as 'an Older Person' instead of a geriatric, then that's fine by me - I'm pleased that they are at least trying to be kind. "Living National Treasure" would be acceptable too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

On a lighter note:

After watching the Melbourne Cup on TV earlier today, I noticed that one of the horses in the race after the Cup was called Shellshocked.

It ran close to last – but I’m sure it would have done MUCH better had the owners known that they should have called it PostTraumaticStressDisordered! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />

AFFIRMATIVE ACTION

We have a principle here called Affirmative Action – a very PC concept that involves giving more jobs to women - or any other group who are perceived to be disadvantaged – purely on the basis that they had a less than fair deal in the past.

Now, Rincewind and Womble’s arguments might be better than mine (I particularly liked Womble’s assertion that he disliked many Africans, not for being black, but for being primitive, tribalistic, murderous bastards – or words to that effect. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> ).

But you see, oh wise judge, I am in need of Affirmative Action. Not only am I old, but I also work as a full time ‘Carer’ to an ‘Intellectually Disabled Person’, AND I am the victim of some incurable Waffling Virus, which appears to be peaking – so clearly I should be allowed to win <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" />

And I have teddy bears in my avatar now. Would you be so heartless as to discriminate against teddy bears? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" />

Oooooorkaaaaaaa.........

Übereil

This is funny and I have no idea why... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />



Jesus H Christ. I have never ever seen such an unfair law in all my life. I don't mind at all guidelines as to how I should be PC but when you start passing laws as unfair as this one then there is something badly wrong here.

They are saying we should hire a woman because she's a woman over a more qualified man for a job?? Are you insane??! (directed at no-one in particular here, well maybe Ubereil)

I personally think it is insulting to women. It like the company is saying 'There there dear. You may not be as bright as the other men but we'll give you a job anyway because you're a girlie', talk about patronising.

Honestly, women, minorities everywhere. Wouldn't you rather have a job because you actually fought for the position and won? Not have it handed to you on a platter because of who you are, not what you are?

They're still discriminating! Its in a nice way but its not fair!

And yes, I have been screwed over by these laws several times when someone I believed was inferior to me (job-wise) was hired instead of me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" /> They were always in the 'positive discrimination' category.

[color:"orange"] new topic is: is political correctness the only way to respect others?[/color]
Well, I guess we already have agreement, that it is not - and that it would be a sad thing, if it would be.

[color:"orange"] Is political correctness a way to respect others?[/color]
Not much difference to the above, though I concede it could be one way of hopefully many.

What is it then?

Political Correctness is a way to show respect towards others?

That is, what makes it "political" - the show! Political Correctness is not about "respecting", it is about hiding ones true opinions or attitudes, so that one does not offend the other party. Out of respect? Rarely, if not coincidental - in the political context it really is to avoid any clear opinion, that could be interpreted as derogatory by one side of the voting mass, while still, if not openly suppporting, so at least not contradicting the attitudes of the other side of the voting mass.

The change in attitudes, that some of you depicted, that undoubtedly occurred over the course of the years, is a change in attitude in society in general. A result, I believe, that is more due to better education and information - a discussion of ethical values - than of a re-labeling in the course of political correctness.

Note, that I endorse the attempt to try to achieve some "neutral" verbiage. Language is a living thing, and we should, especially in public statements, try to say, what we mean. And if some expressions do have a derogatory notion in their general use and meaning, we should avoid them - unless we mean it.

Because honesty in our speech is more respectful to the people we're speaking of, as well as to those we're speaking to.

Maybe because you don't know what it means, and I would explain it to you, if I had the energy (orka förklara...).

Übereil

Or (orka förklara = have the strength to explain)

In English <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Kyra_Ny <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

Either she has Swedish relatives (or friends) or she knows the adress to the right websites...

Übereil

Either she has Swedish relatives (or friends) or she knows the adress to the right websites...

Übereil [/quote]

I told you Ube...
Call it intuition. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />

Kyra_Ny <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />

Hmmmm, it was funnier when I didn't know the meaning... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Either she has Swedish relatives (or friends) or she knows the adress to the right websites...

Übereil [/quote]

I told you Ube...
Call it intuition. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />

Kyra_Ny <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> [/quote]

And I told YOU: Yeah, right!!!

Übereil

Stop huge-quoting please. I quite like this thread and I don't want it ruined by dipstick behaviour. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

Quoting Womble <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Are we in a mood today? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Kyra_Ny <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

i'm not in a mood but i agree with womble...
about the huge quoting i mean...

BACK TO ON TOPIC...

well i had misunderstood kris first posts in the beginning so apologies...

hmm as you were all more or less agreeing with good arguments it is not so easy and necessary unfair to claim a winner...

Unlike Gerald Ford, Ubereil is able to make two things in the same time (see the holliday and NWN threads for more details) but was unfortunately not able to add arguing to his many activities for this time...

Mea is really too lazy even if funny...

Womble, janggut and Rincewind had all really great entries... faithful to their respective styles...

kris had some very good points (well once i had understood them) but hmm... hakea is not wrong in his critics, isn't he?... anyway kris will have made a great winner if...

so... winner is GlanceALot... short, direct to the point... and some arrows shot to womble (and maybe to me as well)...

I agree. Glance's posts rarely miss the point. Even if he did steal some ideas from me.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> (Just kidding Glance)

Yup, Glance said it well indeed! Especially his commentary on the "political" part being all about the "show". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

I wonder what Glance said...

Übereil

I shall have to have words with that Hakea ..... lots and lots and lots of words... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Yes, unfortunately I do waffle on too much <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sad.gif" alt="" /> - short and to the point will nearly always win. Congratulations to GlanceALot, for being saying it well, and for sticking to the actual question! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

But just think... if I'd won we could be talking about sex now... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />

I worry the topic would be over run with to many Verbs. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Kyra_Ny <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />