Larian Studios Forums General Chat Chat (Anything) The Argumentative Git thread

You like that don't you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I own 3 of Martin Seligman's books.
I must say they are very good and the best books on the topic I have ever read.
His book titled "Authentic Happiness" is his best work so far.

Kyra_Ny <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

Kyra, it would be nice to have all that in Swedish, since I'm not shure I understood it all. Normally, you translate all MY Swedish stuff into English, now you just have to work the other whay around...

Übereil

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

Sorry Ube

I am not the original author of the words I used.

And my limited Knowledge of your language would butcher the true meaning of the words.

Kyra_Ny

Oh... Well, that pretty much screwed that argument...

Übereil

Maybe this is a little Off Topic now:

Kyra, if you quote, could you please let us know it beforehand? I was sooo impressed! Well, I'm still impressed, that you knew this. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> But who wrote it?

And I'd like some more information on Seligman. I know Pinker and love his books. Is it similar? In that case I would have to read him... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

Oh, I'm so sorry Sveltje. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shame.gif" alt="" />

I'll do just that from here on out and you are right.
I wish I could express myself as well as Kiya.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" /> Kyra_Ny <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

It's already forgiven and forgotten, but I'm still curious. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Why does the only popular Swedish car, Volvo, have a Latin name?

The *only* popular Swedish car? What about Saab? That's not Latin...

Saab= Svenska Aeroplane AB (aktiebolag). You don't have to know Swedish to realize that yes, they used to do aeroplanes, not cars.

Übereil (this will really make Womble happy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />)

I wish that too as i'm trying to answer her question for the last 2 hours and by now i can say that i've failed... at least until tomorrow <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />


hmm not an argument just an undecidable ennouncement.



that was something i suspected contentment has something to do with self satisfaction <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />welcome back cleg

that's a nice long post, kyra. really good.

however i'm not too sure about certain parts. for example, the writer(s) dropped quite a few names (celebrities?) & i have failed to make connection as the writer(s) somehow assumed that the readers will know.

let's see if i can summarise the 3 lives;

pleasant - outward projection; savoring, mindfulness, and variation
good - immersed in sensory pleasures; absorption, immersion, and flow
meaningful - delving into acts/deeds that renders meaning to the person & life

it is possible to be in more than one of these categories, isn't it?

kyra, i'm aware that happiness is more than just the word 'contentment' which i try to understand & differentiate from happiness. i was trying to see what contentment means to me.

No, I don't think you've failed. I failed to understand, MG. I'm trying to find out in which context you mean "contentment" - as I am fascinated by the Buddhist view of this word. I think, it's called "satisfaction", but I only read this in German, so I'm not sure. I have the feeling, you mean the word in Sartre's context - or are using a socially defined direction. If you could name the philosopher/sociologist you might be referring to, I can make an inner connection.
Kiya <just very curious, I hate it if I don't understand. Maybe your meaning could add to my knowledge fragments, you see?>

Csiksentmihalyi (sp?) has described the word "flow" in his book. A way of being what you do, being totally absorbed with something, taking what comes fully - similar to Zen. Seligman means this IMO <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />- and C. thinks that this "flow" is the way to happiness as well. No, distinction, no comparison, no yearning for what I don't have, no dualism - just being and taking what comes. Small children are supposed to be born with this, we adults seem to lose this on the way. Bernard Benson has described this as well. In the way you described "contentment" I thought about "dualism", thus giving/taking/restricting/defining contentment vs happiness. And I'm trying to detect my own restrictive dualism - so, my failure to understand could be because I'm on the track for own inner blindness. So, your explanation could help me, see?

i think i found a bias for answering your question kiya...

i'm not content with this question. why? because it shows that i wasn't clear enough. i didn't accomplish (fullfil?) the expectations others can have. so it is due to Outer World even if it stays a feeling, something that belongs to my internal life.

on the other hand, i'm happy with this question. why? because it gave me an opportunity to try to do better (not sure i can but anyway...). and that's a choice i've made for accomplishing myshelf, even if it is still related to Outer World, as my own representations are in a way related to the Outer World (well i hope so anyway), this orient is secondary.

so contentment is more based on satisfaction and more exactly on self satisfaction (in the case of koz, it seems to be even self congratulation <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />)... and what can really satisfy myshelf except the feeling that i have fullfiled (accomplished?) ... what? i don't know how i could called that... my purpose (not self made here), my fate, my ends... anyway that i have fullfiled/accomplished the place that was made for me in the Universe ("kosmos") as A Great All (whole?).

Now if i can't anymore reach the definition of that place because some aspects of the World are too complex to be reached (i mean here defined) as the physics aspects and that the World appears as fragmental (i mean there is no real way to link physical representations with psychological representations with social representations... etc...), i have to renounce to search for real satisfaction (the higher form of contentment)...

Am I condemned to be unhappy then? fortunately not. well at least i may be find many ways to be less unhappy... i can't give recipes for that... but in my own myshelf i know what to do to be less unhappy because it is fullfiling rules i have given to myshelf. so in a way happiness is the exact contrary of contentment it is a move where contentment is a fullfilment, more exactly it was a perpetual state of contentment for the Ancient Greek and it is an undefined move for us.

ok all this is still really abstract... i'm not sure i have really managed to be much clearer <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" />

kyra_ny i think i've incidentally just answered your question about the 'what then' question. that was not exactly what i meant. Well i have really appreciated your text there but for me it is more a greek paradigm than a modern one.

Hm, let me see if I understood you now:

Contentment is being satisfied with what comes (in a sort passive) - you are on the receiving end from what the outer world gives you.

Happiness is a sort of success (active) by achieving something you consider important in your inner world?
Kiya <still hunting>

kiya, that might be it; in zen/shinto, accepting one's fate/karma is contentment.

guroth, is contentment that different from happiness in essence or are the two just different in relative magnitude? maybe u can give example on what makes u content & what makes u happy.

well done jang!

all the point is there but i will take it in the other end (physical meaning)...

is immobility and move a difference of essence/nature or a difference of magnitude?... antic physics answer generally it is a difference of essence... modern physics it is a difference of magnitude (as immobility is a state among many others of move)... ok i generalize because that's not really true for pre-socratics it seems and that's only half true for Aristotle and or for Indian science for the few things i know about it. But anyway it is still a great line of the Antic and Medieval thought. And for modern physical recent theories like quantic theory or theory of Chaos have yet complexified the things.

but for contentment and happiness i will say that it is more like 2 antagonist forces. they may have the same essence but are pushing in opposite sides.

I can't give any examples about what make me truly content. I could give examples about what make me moderatly content but only because i'm not immunate against self satisfaction. About what make me truly happy many things. too many things. i think that "being healthy", "having a lot of friends" "loving my wife" "being loved by her", "having an interesting professional life" and many other things contribute to be happy/less unhappy but separatly none of these things are enough for that and maybe none are truly necessary. Or maybe they are necessary for me but not for you. anyway happiness is not in these things even if it may be coming with them. contentment is in the thing that brings contentment.

Kiya, well what you said is an aspect of what i'm trying to say yes. but it is only an aspect.

for my sources maybe that can help

Not really but I’m not sure Sartre would have opposed to a certain dualism between contentment as a perpetual state and happiness as a move. To my great shame I must confess I know little about Sartre’s works...

no but the social and political aspects I was referring to is mainly against the words of a very minor French "philosopher" and professor in political and moral philosophy named Claude Polin (author of a book about or more precisely against democracy). This man preached a return to a very conservative (lest I can say) order based on Greek values. I was always shocked by his view and by his refute of considering evolutions of physics view in the thought about politics and moral question (and happiness is mainly a moral question)


I really can’t. Well I think I used contentment in a way that is more or less corresponding to the translation (“tradutore trattitore” like said Italians but…) of Greek concepts in English as they appears in many modern analysis of Greek philosophy (and especially Stoicism and Epicurism… true for Cynics too I think) where moral view is a logical consequence to physical view
So, in a way, in a restrictive meaning but that was provoked by koz’s post…
Hmm maybe I’m referring to Nietzsche and phenomenology too. I’ve been always fascinated by the idea Thought can be only revealed in a fragmental way because I think it goes well with the splitting of our modern view of physics and knowledge in general…

Hope that helps.

ok i'm sorry i didn't wish to speak in an enigmatic way. just to integrate a parralel between evolutive views of physical and moral worlds.

I'll give you another three hours. After that time's up, and it's time to announce the winner (which won't be easy...).

Übereil

Better announce a winner...

Congratulation Mater Guroth! You won!

Übereil

thanks and thanks to kiya, kyra and jang for their questions which allowed me to developp my view... thanks to koz!

hope i was not too "exotic" here though...

ok, i have a new topic for you but it is a bit technical so...

aphorisms and short sentences... are they meaningless? Or are they a way to express something that can't be expressed otherwise? in the extrem case:"salt" and "give me the salt please?"... are these two expressions equivalent? and why or why not?

please don't answer with aphorisms <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

PS if they are no replies or too many argument against this topic i will change it tomorrow morning (for me) so in 12-14 hours.

PPS the salt example is taken from Wittgenstein... ok it is not necessary to know that for arguing the question.