Larian Studios Forums General Chat Chat (Anything) The Argumentative Git thread

Hmmm, some interesting points, if brief, so I'll end this topic a little early, in the event the brevity indicates a lack of interest, my apologies to any who wanted to respond but didn't get a chance. I should probably award the victory to Cleglaw just for knowing what an action potential is <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> , but I'll address the question at hand individually.

Janggut : While I agree that perception is important is measuring honesty, I'm not sure that perception alone can define whether honesty conceptually exists, so I don't think this answer can win.

Guroth :

Without form, nothing exists. One of the rules here, an unspoken one, was to communicate in english, such that I could understand the response. Another rule was that you had to post here, instead of sending me an answer via PM, for instance.

Indeed Master Guroth, you have followed many of my rules, and thus helped to establish the form of a genuine answer, as your behavior speaks louder than words in this case - however you said you didn't accept the rules, when in fact you have, and thereby not answered the question at all. Ergo you cannot win this argument, as technically you have not participated in it, though it was an entertaining response.

Ubereil : An interesting take with respect to the idea that honesty via actions, which is also a form of communication, can be taken to represent honesty conceptually, but I would say you are talking about something like duty or even loyalty to one's self concept, rather than honesty per se. So I cannot award the victory to you, not honestly.

Glance expands on this point and additionally makes it clear that honesty depends upon communication and our ability to do that internally first, also upon the audience and understanding, and upon the actual questions asked and the conditions under which they are asked, I.E. Honesty exists but calling something an honest answer depends on both parties conception of the situation and nature AND form of the question. Which is necessarily true if honesty exists, however, it does not strictly answer the question but clarifies conditions under which honesty might exist, I'm not sure this is a direct answer, though again, interesting.

Kiya makes an important point, very similar to Glance, in that we must be honest with ourselves and recognize in our communication what is honest, and also realize that one answer might be honest while at the same time being incomplete - honesty is not the same thing as a complete answer, nor does an honest attempt at an honest answer insure that the listener will interpret a response in the way it was intended. While true and important as well, still, I cannot regard that as a complete answer to the topic. (and IMO, the operating definition of honesty takes this reality into account - when we as humans say honesty, the presumption of imperfect and incomplete communication is, as it must be, taking into account the realities of the situation, ergo honesty is a comment on intent and expectation of understanding, if you will)

But my opinion on the correctness of an answer isn't relevant here - rather the form of the argument, and so in trying to be true to the forums nature-
Therefore the winner is Cleglaw : Not for being right, but rather, for answering in form, and therefore making the response real, but also, for covering all the most relevant points:

Cleglaw notes that honesty is about communication and depends upon it for its existence, but communication is imperfect with respect to our ability to transmit meaning (in effect we cannot prove we are being honest), one interpretation might be to call that result a lie, which is consistent with Cleglaw's position, and the point about sincerity, about intent rather than control of the actual result, is important, though I think it actually reverses Cleglaw's argument <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> (imo problems in measuring honesty don't nullify it's existence)
The exception also emphasizes perhaps the most important point, that if we can recognize the possibility of honesty then it must exist, regardless of how we might or if we could achieve it.

winner --> [color:"orange"]Cleglaw[/color] <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" />

Thank you all for playing