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old hand
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if language is evolutive it means also that language is born with experiment... and it is the own of experiment that all experiences can't be satisfying, isn't it?... so it's only natural that language engenders 'false' expression (in the way of physical 'false' experience not in the way of logics)...
anyway what is the lifetime of an expression like "Mode for Kids" or equivalent? very short isn't it? i'm sure in 15 years of adult-life i have heard many expressions like that (i mean that had this kind of flaws)... but more than one has already disappeared.
so in a way it is only fashion... that's really a more general problem than just a language problem... and IMO i'm not sure it is so clearly related to anglicisation or americanisation of our societies... if it was not english/american words it would be others...
MG!!! The most infamous member these forums have ever got!
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Sveltje: In response to Kiya's post: But: I love German too! It is also a beautiful (even if rather complicated) language and should not be replaced with English. And I agree with Alrik when he says that he hates all these Anglicisms. I mean, just one typical example: what the heck is "Mode for Kids"? (For non-German-speakers: Mode = Fashion). This is neither English nor German, it is rubbish. It has nothing to do with the beauty of the English language. It is just meant to sound "cool". If you ask me, it is only embarrassing. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" /> No, I don't think I'm mixing up - as I explained, the language I prefer was connected to my childhood <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> - therefore my subjective preference. In fact, I use the word "kiddies" very often in my everyday rants - I like it more than "Kinder". I don't really like German - grammar, interpunction, spelling => ugh! I agree, some word creations are plain silly in ads, but isn't this area supposed to be silly? Think of another area => Kanak-Sprak. The mix out of Turkish and German, not even invented by ads, but by young people themselves => that's what I call embarrassing. No, compared to Kanak-Sprak anglicism is harmless IMO. Why? Because it brutalises grammar - and this is worse than creating words. MG is right => americanisation is more than just taking over a few words: Valentine's day, Halloween => that's just commerce IMO, and if these customs would have come from another continent, it would still be commerce, nothing else. And everyone of us can choose freely to succumb to this or not, right? If people have fun with it, why not? Kiya
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@Master Guroth: You're right. This is really another kind of problem. And I must admit that I am probably rather conservative in this respect <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> But then - resistance is part of evolution, too, isn't it? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> @Kiya: Commercials may be silly (and they are... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" />), but what about signs in department stores, for example? My grandmother wouldn't be able to find her way around one anymore. But as Master Guroth pointed out this is not really anglicisation.
Last edited by Sveltje; 26/10/04 11:29 AM.
Der Mensch ist das edelste Lebewesen. - Das erweist sich schon daraus, dass ihm noch kein anderes widersprochen hat.
(G.C. Lichtenberg)
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Sveltje: But then - resistance is part of evolution, too, isn't it? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> - you have my full sympathy in there <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> - I'm resisting Kanak-Sprach and will go down gloriously <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> Kiya <lingo-dinosaur> Sveltje:
@Kiya: Commercials may be silly (and they are... ), but what about signs in department stores, for example? My grandmother wouldn't be able to find her way around one anymore.
True, this is a problem - and part of the "civilisation-evolution" as well. Keeping a language is a glass case for preservation is the death of living language. After the War of 30 yrs, when Germany was down - after Napoleon => the German language had changed as well. Just take the Duden and its spelling reform, taking up new words etc. => The German Society for Preservation of the German language would have died a 1000 deaths, if these members would still be alive and see how everything has changed. It's a "natural" process IMO, more natural than Esperanto.
Last edited by kiya; 26/10/04 11:36 AM.
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old hand
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@Sveltje But then - resistance is part of evolution, too, isn't it? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
very true! @kiya It's a "natural" process IMO, more natural than Esperanto. don't want to sound sarcastic but that's not too hard as Esperanto is many things but not natural... hmm this is largely off topic but i never understood this dream for an universal language that will include only european languages... even in the last part of XIXth Century it was out of date IMO... @alrik... trouble with advertisers is that whatever the language they speak they have always the expressions of a 15 years old fashion's victim!
MG!!! The most infamous member these forums have ever got!
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LOL ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />
When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon
"Interplay.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
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Kiya: the language I prefer was connected to my childhood <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> - therefore my subjective preference. In fact, I use the word "kiddies" very often in my everyday rants - I like it more than "Kinder". Hi Kiya, Regarding your interest in the English language, have you ever read a book called "Mother Tongue - The English Language"? It's by Bill Bryson, better known for humorous travel books. It was written in about 1990 and is a wonderful study of how English has changed and developed over the years, and how it has taken elements from so many other countries and languages. Of course there's influences from Old English, Norse languages, Latin, German, French and all over Europe, but also many words and phrases came back to England from America many years ago, and are not recognised now as coming from there. It's a fascinating, serious and deeply researched book, but spiced with plenty of funny examples of the weird quirks of the language. It's one that I read more or less permanently - it goes back to the bottom of the old favourites pile and then steadily works its way back up again! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> ISBN 0 - 14 - 014305 - x Worth dipping into if you have access to it through your library system. Cheers, Chris.
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WOW!!!! I think the Argumentive Git Topic found its way here! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> I find everything you all have said fascinating. We don’t have the language mixing problems here in America like you all do. For the simple fact that American English is a Hybrid of to many languages to count! True most of our language was derived from Latin and Greek combinations, but nowadays it’s really what we term as a Pot Luck of languages. (Pot Luck is a church Lunch gathering and everyone brings their own food to share.) I can truly empathize and understand where you all are coming from. It’s almost like losing part of who you are as a nation through attrition. Keep this conversation flowing, please. It’s helping me to learn more about all of you. Please, anyone can join in. I'd like to learn more. Kyra_Ny <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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(Pot Luck is a church Lunch gathering and everyone brings their own food to share.) And just to emphasize that American English is really a "potluck" language: this word is derived from the Native American "Potlach" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Der Mensch ist das edelste Lebewesen. - Das erweist sich schon daraus, dass ihm noch kein anderes widersprochen hat.
(G.C. Lichtenberg)
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(Pot Luck is a church Lunch gathering and everyone brings their own food to share.) And just to emphasize that American English is really a "potluck" language: this word is derived from the Native American "Potlach" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> Hey, I just learned something else today. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> Kyra_Ny <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />
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old hand
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(Pot Luck is a church Lunch gathering and everyone brings their own food to share.) And just to emphasize that American English is really a "potluck" language: this word is derived from the Native American "Potlach" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> hmm maybe... nethertheless there is a french expression (a bit old) who is "à la fortune du pot" (so: pot luck)... hmm origin is a bit different as it was originally meaning what was remaining in the cooking pot... but actually it means more or less that everyone brings their own food to share ... so actually one expression may have different origins... i don't know which is the "good" one in this case though... or if there is one...
MG!!! The most infamous member these forums have ever got!
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I've read somewhere that Potlach was a kind of celebration of northwestern Indian tribes. A chief invited representatives of other groups and gave them presents. "Potlach" means "give". "Potluck" was supposed to be derived from this. But your explanations sounds logic too, so who knows... There are a lot of popular errors, maybe this is one. It may even be that "pot luck" was translated into French and found its way into your language that way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />
Der Mensch ist das edelste Lebewesen. - Das erweist sich schon daraus, dass ihm noch kein anderes widersprochen hat.
(G.C. Lichtenberg)
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old hand
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(Pot Luck is a church Lunch gathering and everyone brings their own food to share.) And just to emphasize that American English is really a "potluck" language: this word is derived from the Native American "Potlach" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> hmm maybe... nethertheless there is a french expression (a bit old) who is "à la fortune du pot" (so: pot luck)... hmm origin is a bit different as it was originally meaning what was remaining in the cooking pot... but actually it means more or less that everyone brings their own food to share ... so actually one expression may have different origins... i don't know which is the "good" one in this case though... or if there is one... MASTER_GUROTH It's only bad if 6 to 10 people all bring potato salad. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> But back to my earlier point. I mean, for example, here in California we use a lot of Mexican and Spanish words in our regular everyday language now. But in other States here in America, like Arkansas they would hardly ever, if at all, use any of the Mexican Spanish words we use here in California. In Arakansas they might use the word "Youins". We here in California would say "You All". They both mean the same exact thing. That's just an example of how America is a Great Big Potluck of Languages. Then I had a guy friend who tried to trick me into useing the words "érotique soixante neuf" with another guy, but I knew his little tricks. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> Kyra_Ny <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />
Last edited by Kyra_Ny; 26/10/04 02:40 PM.
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old hand
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That's just an example of how America is a Great Big Potluck of Languages.
easily understandable for the melting pot it is... Then I had a guy friend who tried to trick me into useing the words "érotique soixante neuf" with another guy, but I knew his little tricks. is that a typical american expression? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> in which state? i thought it was the best example of... when french become international *sigh*
MG!!! The most infamous member these forums have ever got!
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old hand
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Then I had a guy friend who tried to trick me into useing the words "érotique soixante neuf" with another guy, but I knew his little tricks. is that a typical american expression? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> in which state? i thought it was the best example of... when french become international *sigh* <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> No, its not a typical American Expression. Although a lot of guys have it on their minds a lot here. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> He was in his second year of learning French and he was a trickster. He was being a <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" /> devil he was. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> I knew how he was. So I learned what the words were and then gave him a punch in the arm. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> Kyra_Ny <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />
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As far as I can judge from what I know of it, Sveltje is right. "Richness" was measured in the amount of presents given to the participants. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Actually, we don't know from which native american language "potlach" comes from, since there had once been several hundred languages, and still there are some, although the number is reduced nowadays. So we cannot say what the word originally means. It might be a mere coincidence (right spelled ?) that it contains the particle "pot".
When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon
"Interplay.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> @ Kiya => I'll miss you. Take Care <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> Kyra_Ny <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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Um... I can not read the whole thread as most of you know that I have certain problems the last few monts and my time in here is limited, but I wanted to say that I personally have a great love for German people. I like the way they think, I like the way they behave, I admire things that they acompliced the last decades and I wish with all my heart that I could learn their language. There is this thing with that language that sounds like music in my ears. And I have noticed the last decade that there are so liberal! Their art, their music, everything reflects a liberal, almost revoloutionary point of view that suits me fine.
On the other hand, I have met wonderfull Americans. Since English is the only language I know apart from my native, I like it dearly and I wish I could reach a level that I could express myself with it like I do with Greek. The only thing that I do not like in Americans is the way they vote and please do not take that comment as a reason to start a fight. It is simply my opinion and nothing more. After all I judge having in mind the Greek political system which is totaly different from theirs.
If I am off topic please do not mind me.
You can have my absence of faith
you can have my everything...
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If I am off topic please do not mind me. Aren't we all <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
Der Mensch ist das edelste Lebewesen. - Das erweist sich schon daraus, dass ihm noch kein anderes widersprochen hat.
(G.C. Lichtenberg)
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Um... I can not read the whole thread as most of you know that I have certain problems the last few monts and my time in here is limited, but I wanted to say that I personally have a great love for German people. I like the way they think, I like the way they behave, I admire things that they acompliced the last decades and I wish with all my heart that I could learn their language. There is this thing with that language that sounds like music in my ears. And I have noticed the last decade that there are so liberal! Their art, their music, everything reflects a liberal, almost revoloutionary point of view that suits me fine.
On the other hand, I have met wonderfull Americans. Since English is the only language I know apart from my native, I like it dearly and I wish I could reach a level that I could express myself with it like I do with Greek. The only thing that I do not like in Americans is the way they vote and please do not take that comment as a reason to start a fight. It is simply my opinion and nothing more. After all I judge having in mind the Greek political system which is totaly different from theirs.
If I am off topic please do not mind me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> LUCRETIA <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> Even we, here in America, don't like how our votes turn out a lot of the time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> When a voter is among the minority of thought, ones views are often bypassed. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" /> No hard feelings taken. As for a language that is music to my ears... Well, I have always loved the Russian language. Please, do not get me wrong, I love the languages from other countries as well. In fact, if I ever found a Djinni in a bottle, my one and only wish would be to be able to fluently speak, read, and write all languages from the past, present, and future. It’s just I feel like I belong for some reason to the Russian language, and I fell in love with their history at the age of 5 when I first read about The Romanov family and the Czars in the Encyclopedia Britannica. Oh, well I’m rambling. Kyra_Ny <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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