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NeroJB >

Deep words for the heavy hearted world of today.

It took a lot of courage for you to post this here with todays views. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

Tsel <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

deleted

Sorry lews...but what??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" />

... nevermind ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sad.gif" alt="" />

good writings, Nero. i suppose it's only a summary? too bad, i'd like to read the whole thing.

however ...
[color:"pink"] Even if the foe we face has strong beliefs and ideals we must maintain the belief that ours are stronger and closer to good. [/color] Nero

or do u mean resolve? whether your belief & ideal are stronger or better, quite moot a point, if u ask me. no way we can say whose are better in that sense. it's the resolve in the belief & ideal that makes the difference, i think.

i feel that particular sentence is walking on a fine line but in your case, i understand your sentiments. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Violence is the foolish man's last means...

If you CAN solve a situation in other ways than violent ways, you should do so. But, as you say, if one guy is about to blow up a building and kill hundreds of innocents, he should be stopped at allcosts... As low costs as possible I mean...

Übereil

If I understand your question properly, the literal translation in Exodus and Leviticus uses the word Murder vs. some translations using the word Kill.
Kill is incorrect and has a totally different meaning than Murder.

In a round about way, did that answer your question?

Tsel <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Good little speech there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

It doesn't justify the invasion of Iraq though, not even close....

I believe in just conflicts, believe me. There are occasions when it is necessary to fight. Very few though, very few.

However, when you lie and decieve the people of your country to go to a war for the wrong reasons or no reason at all there is no justification. You just delude yourself.

All I'm saying was that THIS war was wrong, for the wrong reasons, and built out of lies.

"Defending our freedom"???? All I see these days are paranoid, scared people. They are less free than they ever were.

America is not being invaded, there are no armies massing at the borders. Attack as a form of defence? No, I don't buy it, not for one second.

Revenge, oil, political power and influence in the middle east, another term for a hick idiot. Yeah, I'll go with that....

Come now my little drunk dwarven friend! I didnt mention Iraq and it was written b4 then. Just food for thought...and I would argue that theyre were good reasons for the Iraq war...that may not have been why we were sent but that is the reason the troops are there doing what we do.

Yeah, sort of my question.

@ Womble -> the recent war does come to mind when reading the article. since Nero cleared it with the fact that it was written well before shows that he means for the article to be more universal than just that war.

@ Nero -> i suppose if u are to re-write the article, u may need to clarify things a bit more.

I liked your writing Nero. I wonder if it was recently written?

I was married to a man in the US Air Force and have to believe that many wars were fought by good men and women (and animals!) who died to protect our lives, homes, and freedom. I think we should learn from them and not repeat their mistakes.

Womble, I agree with you also. This does not include today's Iraq mess! It's scary to think that we can always find better ways to kill each other.

"Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori"

The old lie..... I posted this in the poems thread a long time ago.

I agree that the armed forces sometimes do good for our countries. Most of the time they are just used as pawns in a bigger political game. I could never fight unless I truly believed in the cause. Therefore I'll never join the armed forces. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Only justafiable war in the 20th century = WW2.

Nero: There are no justifications for the Iraq war, period. The original reason was a lie, an incompetent one at that and was the only one used at the time. That is the crucial point to me. The other reasons were all made up afterwards.
That's a damn fact too.
It was hilarious to watch. Operation 'get the WMD's' (or whatever) turned into 'Iraqi freedom' turned into operation total bullsh*t.

If they were there to 'free' them what makes Iraq so special? So many young men and women dead or crippled to free a big sandy dustbowl of a country?? Yeah, right.

Young is right too. Average age of a GI=21. Average age of a royal marine=25.

Anyway, there are lots of other countries to liberate. So Bush better get busy. He's got an empire to build! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />

Why is it always necessary to die for 'freedom'? Maybe we can ask all the dead Iraqi civillians how free they feel. Oh, no we can't, because they're bloody dead aren't they? How much blood is necessary to repay the deeds of 9/11?

So what do your superiors say Nero? Why is the U.S. really in Iraq? I haven't noticed gas prices go down much so what use was all of this? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

Nero: sorry, not a personal attack, I'm just frustrated, I stand by my words and believe them as strongly a when I first spoke them. What the hell are the reasons for this war? Honestly?

Womble... passions can release history too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shhh.gif" alt="" />

Hegel was saying something like that.

I didn't like iraq war either but... hmm if from lies something good can come out... not saying it will as i have a skeptical nature... well who may really know?

and i'm certainly not one of those who were defending saddam <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Nero: there are good reasons for anything... at least it is possible to find reasons for anything and they will allways be people to say they are good ones.
for iraq war... i really don't know.
too early to say something like that, imo.

Shure, there was some good reasons, but the bad reasons where more, and they were worse!

And very true, Womble!

And I wonder if Iraq will ever be able to raise again after all the american companies have took over all their major income sources...

Übereil

That's that plan isn't it? Bush hides behind all these wonderful and noble virtues but the reality is that Iraq is the latest US outpost in the middle east and Haliburton is a few billion dollars richer.

I'd also love to tear that passage that Nero quoted a new one but I lack the time right now. Work is busy.

Suffice to say the last example he gives is stupid. Of course the soldier should kill the man with the bomb. Its nothing to do with war at all. That's terrorism. Nothing to do with carpet-bombing a country and moving in afterwards, planting a flag in the middle of devastated ruins and saying "look, you're free!"

"Er, thanks a bunch!"

Ideals are wonderful, but are rarely planned and executed well. I mean everyone would agree that Vietnam was a total screw-up right? If we are still typing on this forum in 20 years I'll be here to say Iraq has become exactly the same thing.

Oh, I don't know... Soviet was involed in a war with Afganistan (I think) which whent about as good...

And if we're not talking war, I think Tjernobyl was the total screw up. But that's just my highlly personal oppinion... Maybe concurrented by Hiroshima/Nagasaki, but that's only if the theory I wrote about in the Arguamentive Git thread is true...

Übereil

I agree.
Afghanistan was a total mess. It still is. Its been invaded by both superpowers now! All that place has ever known is conflict. Sad really....

There are far more examples of countries that have been 'liberated' by so-called 'developed nations'. They pretty much always end up worse than before.

Is there anyone here who has seen El Salvador? It's acually about this kind of thing. USA moves into a war haunted country to liberate it from communism, and instead puts a fashist in charge...

After 9/11 I heard a sketch on the radio (it wasn't really a sketch, it was a guy doing prickcalls, and pretending he was different kinds of things). It was about a guy calling the american ammbassy in Sweden and asking if they could take part in a 9/11 memorial happening, and prehaps hold a speetch. And of chorse they could take part in such an act. And they got a lot of credit for doing this, I mean it's really strong of them to acually stand up and say they're sorry... The ambasador asked, what do you mean sorry? Well, we where talking about 9/11 1979 when USA pulled off a coup d'etat to put the elected president from the goverment and put Pinochet in charge, and hundreds of thousands of innocents died...
WHAT!?! YOU [nocando] SON OF A [nocando], I'M GONNA [nocando] YOUR [nocando][nocando] AND [nocando][nocando][nocando] YOU [nocando][nocando][nocando]...

This might be another of my prejudices, but doesn't americans tend to be pretty hypocratic from time to time?

Übereil

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I have found that all governments and individuals are hypocritical at times. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
The key is to not suffer from myopia.
As pointed out by many others in past threads, we can all point a finger at every nation or country that has done bad.
This topic is near to becoming a Racial discrimination topic. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Tsel