Larian Studios Forums Divinity 2 - Ego Draconis (English) Divinity 2 - Ego Draconis Moral dilemma's in RPGs

Btw, will there be any children in DD2? It'd be very interesting if ,say, there were children who were like Black Ring protege members and the protagonist is confronted with the dilemma on what to do without killing them. Protege members as in: perhaps they're the children of various Black Ring members, or they're even from orphanages set up by the Black Ring.

After all, think about this? What would be better than children who're fully entrenched in your beliefs and who worship the Damned One? By the time they're in their teens, they've fully accepted the teachings and are glad to fall in love with one another and continue a wonderful legacy. (Incidentally, I remember a very short scene in a very old movie where there was this child, clad fully in costumed glory, and praising the cult!)

For example: he could have them placed in a house, that's guarded by paladins or very smart warriors. But at the same time, he'd need to take precautions so they don't go on a killing spree. After all, they might be children but they're also wielding some form of powerful magic that could kill many.

Edit:

Also another thing: it'd be interesting to be able to infiltrate the Black Ring. Pose as an interested Black Ring fan and approach one of the guards and find out as much information as you can.

And another one: to be able to win over various Black Ring members over to your side. I mean, they might have been forced to join or even owed some form of allegiance to various members.

And also: it'd be interesting to have various backgrounds for the members of the Black Ring. Why did they join?

Perhaps for some of them, they might've suffered constant abuse at the hands of various family members or even other individuals and developed an addiction towards it(psychological issues, basically). And this addiction overcame their feelings of empathy, etc. Therefore, you could release them from their addiction and if they're thankful, you might've gained a few formidable allies.

Edit: Yet another one. How about certain Black Ring members having certain amount of fame like a superstar? That means there'd be people who'd do anything for him/her.

You are talking about a moral choice, not about a moral dilemma.

A moral choice is about how much effort you are willing to put into doing the right thing, and what conseque to yourself you are willing to accept. In other words, it´s all about good, evil and the gray-area in between.

The essential ingredient of a moral dilemma is that something very negative WILL happen, no matter what you do, it´s all about choosing the lesser evil/greater good. Consequently, offering ANY path, no matter how difficult, that avoids all negative consequences is chickening out of the dilemma, unless you consider stealing the formula a negative event. But the choice between stealing and letting someone die is a rather weak dilemma, don´t you think?
Ultimatly, moral dilemmas are all about finding out more about yourself: What do you consider good and evil, and, more importantly, lesser/greater good and evil.




But maybe it is the "glass is half-empty" nature of our examples that makes people want to have a "way out": All of them have so far been about choosing the lesser evil. So lets talk about choosing the greater good!

Example: You have inherited a large house you have no use for, and you wish to donate itto a worthy cause. You are approached by people presenting different projects: One person wishes to turn it into a school, another into an orphanage, and yet another into a small hospital for the poor.
And just in case someone tries to chicken out again (:p): All agree that they do NOT want you to sell the house and divide the money evenly because the small sum that would remain for each applicant would be next to no help at all to any of them.

But "greater good" and "lesser evil" will depend on the situation the person or the people being affected are in and also, how much you know about them.

For example: As a paladin, you come across a jail where the Black Ring has thrown in a prisoner. As usual, you let him go but when you release him, he goes back and beats up and nearly kills his wife and children.

If you've heard the rumors and comments about this guy from places like the tavern or even from various Black Ring members, then you'd know something about him.

Still, if a definition of a moral dilemma means that you'd be forced to do the "greater good" as defined by the developers and the game, then count me out. Besides, I'd prefer to be able to choose my moral principles and stuff.

Some points I'd like to bring up: (Character traits and personalities, friends, families, etc.)

No “perfect” characters please.

a) Just 'cos the character may become the next Divine One, doesn't mean he or she will become a goody 2 shoes. After all, we've heard of tyrants who were known for their contributions towards religion and social/public goodwill but despised 'cos of the nature of their rule or various decisions they made.

Sometimes, you're called a despot 'cos you'd to make some rather difficult decisions and you go down in history as a cruel and psychotic ruler.

And we've also heard about benevolent parties who're in nature, very kind and friendly, but they also have decisions or connections that others may not like. Like: Mother Teresa was a good friend of a "freedom fighter" who'd committed what you'd call "genocide".

b) Every person has their good and bad points so there's no such thing as "perfect". Furthermore, every person's actions are influenced by factors like social climate, public awareness, the type of the laws and rules in place, personal feelings, etc. Therefore, would like to see more interesting factors, not those typical "just 'cos you accidentally knocked down something important, you ARE EVIL!!!!!" Or even “what was acceptable 100 to 300 years before DD: would it be acceptable in the time of DD/BD/DD2?”

Characters’ reactions and motives:

c) For heaven's sake, just 'cos someone is from the Black Ring, when he/she meets you, this doesn't mean he wants to kill you right away. I'd rather that they try to make some moves to draw out information than just rashly yell "Death to the Marked One!" and try to engage combat, even though there ARE soldiers and a huge bunch of civilians nearby, or even though they know nothing about your abilities and skills.

Furthermore, some of the Black Ring members could be far more interested in self-preservation than in killing the Divine One.

Basically, this would mean their morals should adjust according to the situation and not always be some "strict believer even if it kills them". As they say: if you run away, you get to live for another day.

This also means that if the Black Ring member is disguised as a civilian, then they could just make some idle conversation with you or various passerbys before walking off. And if his disguise is perfect, please: not even the Divine One should be able to go "Aha! You're a Black Ring member!" unless he/she was warned beforehand.

Flawed characters:
d) Any character should have flaws, what kinda consequences these flaws have should depend on the situation.

Also, I'd also like it if you're too strict or too much of a zealot, then your actions and choices could have some consequences, even for you. Like for an npc, she's a very honorable but extremely harsh person and very strict(not good at dealing with situations, emotions or people): In normal situations, she’s seen as an upright and very firm and strict person and not very tolerant of various issues.

However when a tragedy occurs, she may not know how to deal with it. If she is a person who tends to be rather extreme in her actions, she might start blaming herself as well as everyone around her. If after a while, all that hatred and anger grow inside her and she’s unable to contain it, she might become a very bitter and vindictive person.

I've got other suggestions but that's it for now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Btw, there's one thing though: if there are any dilemmas, please let some of them be meaningful in a sense(educational or something). Throwing them in randomly doesn't make any sense nor putting them in for the sake of saying: "See? We want to show you what the real world is like... and we want the game to illustrate that no one is 100% good or 100% evil."

Having people murder or provoke one another into acts of murder for the sake of introducing a moral dilemma also sounds pretty drastic and seems pretty cheap as not everyone is that hungry for death, not even in times of war/troubles, unless the situation truly justifies their actions.

Though this seems a pretty good example(from one of my fav. comics, Jack http://www.pholph.com/ ) which btw is kinda depressing but has tons of moral choices+dilemmas:

A researcher, Art Sullivan, has been accepted into a research centre for cancer. His motive is to attempt to speed up the process so he can find a cure for his wife and he's been assigned to work along with Doctor Riger Thalmus who's the main researcher for the centre.

While making the rounds one day, Art catches Riger in the act of sexual abuse against one of the child patients. Art is determined to bring the other doctor to the authorities but Riger baits the assistant with his wife and the lives of others: since he keeps all notes in his head, if he goes to jail, the lives of other cancer patients will be moot and his wife will die.

Now, that is a perfect dilemma. Would you bring the guy to jail at the cost of the innocence of children or would you guarantee the cure for many lives?

And if you can find a better way to resolve this dilemma, how would you get about it?

The strip can be read here: http://www.pholph.com/arcview.php?ID=201

Break the fingers of his non-writing hand one at a time until he wrote down the notes, THEN hand him over to the police? Works for me! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Cut off his manly parts <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
he doesn't need those to cure cancer.

Btw, I know a lot of people recommend castration as an option for sex offenders. Well, here's an example where this could be detrimental(from another forum):



Oh and the followers were both male and female too.

What if he refuses to? In the comic, he's an extremely unrepentant and smug [nocando]. Instead of repenting when told the police were coming, he flew into a rage and tried to capitalise on the assistant's guilt.

They're usually the ones that break fastest when you start hurting them. A serious egotist only enjoys pain when it's inflicted on other people...

Heh... well, he was beaten but he still refused to give in. :P

Some people never learn, I guess! They should beat him again! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Some people never learn, I guess! They should beat him again! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> [/quote]

Oh, don't worry... the sonofagun was put into prison. The assistant reported him to the authorities but it took a great loss for him to do so: when his wife heard that the cure would be given to her at the price of someone's lives, she flatlined and soon died, probably from the shock and despair and horror. The most memorable line was "You sold yourself cheap, Aurthor."

What a terrible and realistic scenario, huh?

What's a snofagun ?

What kind of projectiles does it shoot ?



("Bitter words.")

Huh?????

*totally and absolutely confused*

It's a gun that shoots the special 'Sunova' rounds, of course! They're like little mini suns! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Well then cut off his manly parts and his arms too.
Since he isn't using his arms to write down notes, you have no use for his arms anyway.

And I always believed that castration took away the sexual urge, and sterilisation let you keep the urge but made you shoot blanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
I also thought that the problem with that kind of sexual offenders was not the sexual urge but more the feeling of power and being in control.

Our opinions differ and thats ok, but I know what I would cut off.

Well, sexual urge likely originates from your brain which controls your hormones and stuff. A sexual organ is merely there just for reproduction and to "introduce" sexual urge in another person(dating, mating, etc.).

Err.r.. just 'cos you cut off someone's arms and his manly parts won't stop him from influencing others. The only way is to gouge out his eyes, puncture his ears, remove his tongue, his arms/legs but... one warning: what if said person is able to know(sense) who's there? He could STILL devise methods to get around you... kinda annoying, huh? (heard of the old morse code?)

Well, it's been proven that such a process(cutting off the arms, eyes, etc.) will likely dehumanise the person who's committing the acts(Re: Stanford Prison Experiment) and also possibly introduce varying degrees of schizophrenia and psychosis. Furthermore, the longer you're around him, the more likely you'll start to mirror his behaviour. This is why in certain high-level prisons and psychiatry wards, the personnel are rotated so they don't start behaving like the prisoners/patients. And this is also why in the past, some prison wardens and even doctors, etc., would suddenly break and turn into another nutcase.

I suspect the best solution is to just throw him into an underground bunker which is electronically sealed and opened from the outside with the presence of at least 3 people, the bunker will be padded and there'll be many electronic scans, body checks, etc. to ensure he's disarmed and also constant electronic surveillance. That to me sounds less bloody than trying to use torture or any methods to ensure he won't do it again.

Besides, I'd want to put him under the microscope to find out why: if it helps save lives, why not? I want to study his brains and find out what makes him tick, why does he get pushed to do this? And besides, as long as he is NOT around children, things will be likely be quite fine.

This is an example of my weird humour. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

I assumed that the projectiles of this gun consisted of bitter words. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />




*puts a mental note for this being an interesting idea* <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

You know... you've just fried my brains a second time? Come back here.. you!!!

Damn right that there should be consequences: the first time I played Divine Divinity, I flatly refused to join a Guild. Consequence: got stuck. I think that choosing what Guild you join, should have consequences on your interaction with other Guilds.