Larian Studios Forums Divinity 2 - Ego Draconis (English) Divinity 2 - Ego Draconis Moral dilemma's in RPGs

We're planning on including quite a few moral dilemma's in our next game, forcing the player to make choices that have consequences on the inhabitants of the world as well as him/herself. In a lot of cases the consequences aren't immediately clear as it takes some time before the ramifications of a particular choice propagate. This can be an issue, and one way of solving that would be to give you a hint of what will happen if you make a particular choice. I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on that.

Lar

I like the idea that your actions actually have consequenses.
This adds alot to the replayability (or it should anyway).

But I wouldn't want simple conversations to have a big impact.
In Gothic 3 I was talking to an escaped slave, I wasn't planning on bringing him back to the town.
But since I didn't know that slave, I didn't trust him, so I didn't tell him right away that I would take him somewhere safe.
(For all I know he could be an undercover orc mercenary, right? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />)
So I said something like: "hey, you're escaped slave from that town right, I've been told too bring you back" and suddenly getting him to safety wasn't an option anymore.
So I think actions->consequenses like that are kinda lame.
Not all the good guys are always friendly.

Accepting quests/missions also shouldn't have too big of an impact, maybe I would just check it out or accept it while I rethink if I really want to do it.

I like having to cope with moral dilemmas in RPGs, so <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Of course, the player should have some general idea of what his character's actions will lead to, else you might get the impression that you can't really influence what happens, and that might cause frustration. On the other hand, that's how it is in life: you can't always tell what you'll get when you act in a certain way.

Providing some sources of information that are easily available, e.g. by talking to people or by reading books, should be enough to let the player guess what will happen most of the time, but there should also be some liars or erroneous texts that prevent you from knowing exactly which long-term consequences your actions will have. And please don't make it too obvious when people are lying.

For those who always want to make the right decision, there could be a divination skill that grants visions of the possible consequences, maybe a short cut-scene that will illustrate what could happen if you choose this or that option.

I like this idea. I hope you will play around with the concepts of absolute vs relative morality. We all know the superhero dilemma of 1 loved one vs 100 strangers. But what about tactical things that you know are wrong but in the long run have a better result. And just the reality that sometime evil just wins a battle (not the war).

As a tv junkie I must say I am intrigued by the moral dilemma's of 24. Where for the most part the end justifies the means.

As for lar_q's question: Some actions should not need explications

example: Torture , till he answers or hand him to the guards

others should be warned against with "Be warned"

example: When manipulating a race to fight with you against the forces of evil. But the race is reluctant. It would be a shame if the leader would accidentally get killed, so the minister, that is more "open" to you, would take his place. But BE WARNED: if you are caught they might join the other side.

I am really glad you are putting dilemma's in the game. But I also hope you don't have to be goody 2 shoes. Some times a bad action can have good results in the long term.

I think this is a great idea, and I am completely in favour <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Not only does it aid replayability, as Lepel says, but it also adds to the actual role playing side, as the character has a choice of approaches in situations which allow for characterisation.

I like the idea that what the character does might make some things easier and others harder, and that his/her actions have an impact upon the world as a whole.

To me, this is a great approach <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I also find this a great idea ! It reminds me of the "virtue system" (as I call it) I heard about from the Ultima games. :9 The way you behave, the consequences are. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

However, I fear that at least a fraction of gamers will not be able to realize the consequences of their deeds for actions that have consequences only in long terms. I believe that a kind of "hint" is there fore a "must" - but not always.

Because I believe as well, that this could be taken as a "learning curve" : In the beginning of the game, consequences are visible rather in short terms, but the longer the game is played, the longer the timer between action & result is. If this is properly made, then it is possible that gamers might learn from it - to be more cautious in their actions later in the game.


However, there is one another (additional) point. In <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> I liked the "moral dilemma" of the ill people in Rivertown (Dr. Elrath and his treatment).

You might call me a fool, but the more immersion a game has on me, the more I feel with the inhabitants of this world. In the case of the ill people it nearly broke my heart to see one of them finally die (because of the limited number of healing potions especially for that particular illness). I guess I'm too much immersed, then. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> However, what I mean is, that I'd like to have some not-obvious-at-all ways of possible solutions for some "moral dilemmas" as well, if possible. In <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> someone actually came up with the idea of actually stealing a health potion after its use from one ill pertson, in order to give it to the third one.That was unexpected, but very much welcome for my own taste of playing. Plus, it was hidden (this kind of solution), and no-one could see it with actually using his or her brains. Another form of challence ?


In general, I'm very much for these "moral dilemma's", but I fear that gamers might not learn from it, if the time span between action and result iis too long. A possible solution for this would be to make these time spans longer and longer in the course of the game, if possible.

(This alwys reminds me of ecology ... There, the effects appears often only decades after the deed(s) ...)

Actually, you don't get to see any of the quarantined people die - unless you kill them yourself. You can still imagine that the one without the healing potion is cured later on, since the cure is known.

And while I agree that not all possible solutions should be obvious, stealing one of the healing potions back is a bad example, in my eyes. It's an oversight, if not a bug, that those potions remain in the inventory - as the ill people need to drink (or apply) the potion in order to be cured, the vials should at least be empty. For my taste, it feels too much like cheating to steal a potion back. In designing alternate ways to solve a dilemma, please take care to still make them logical, even if they are odd in one way or another.

I also agree that decisions early in the game should tend to have minor and/or short-term consequences - you probably aren't mighty and famous enough to have a major and/or long-term impact on the world - but that doesn't need to be a rule without exceptions. If, for example, you have the option to save or condemn a character who can possibly play a key role later on, the consequences might even be more drastic the sooner you make that choice.

Of course that's a good thing to add... but what what bothers me more than the time until the effect hits in is the actual choice of the player. If the choice is very obvious, it isn't fun anymore for me. An example:

You walk around and suddenly someons attacks you... you fight and just before winning and killing the enemy, he asks for pardon and tells you that some aliens abducted his mother and told him to kill you - otherwise, they would kill his mother. That's why he had to attack you.

Your choices:
1. "OMG, that's a terrible story. Come on, let us rescue your mother!"
2. "Who cares about your mother? Die, fool!"
3. "Oh in that case you can kill me."

As long as the dilemma choice isn't as obvious as in this example, it's fine.

I'd prefer a constant evaluation of the player's actions anyway...

Lar: [color:"orange"]forcing the player to make choices that have consequences on the inhabitants of the world as well as him/herself.[/color]

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" />

If a choice involves a definite action and the consequences are either good for positive motivations or bad for negative ones, then there shouldn't be a need for any warnings. If there is no clear right or wrong choice, then any hints should be not be obvious (except maybe at the start of the game).

For choices made through dialog options, the final remarks that indicate a choice should be phrased clearly. If you say something that sounds non-committal to get out of a conversation (ie to save the game before proceeding) that shouldn't make the choice for you.



Elgi: [color:"orange"]If the choice is very obvious, it isn't fun anymore for me.[/color]

Same goes for the consequences. If there are warnings for everything you might as well play the game after reading ahead in a walkthrough.

Excellent feature, I reckon this will greatly impact the reputation system. Altho I do have concern in how far this can ruin the gameplay. This enforces think before you act, nothing wrong there. But what about those who seek a gaming experience with great story and cinematic value like DD was but better. Who has no intentions to care to much about consequences. Only find himself unable to trade in most parts of the world. These are mistakes that are hard to correct if I'm correct.

I love the suggestion, I only fear the casual action-rpg won't like it. Let's face it the more ppl like the game, hardcore and casual RPG players. The better for larian, expansions, patches.

Yes, it shouldn't always be obvious.
And when it isn't obvious, and afterwards you noticed you actually made the wrong choice, I would like to see that you can still make it better, maybe not always how it should have could ended in the best way, but still, you have payed your dues.
Like someone ask you to kill someone,
lets's say, Ray says: "ooh, that Charles guy, killed my daughter, my lovely Kimberly.", and then you say, "i'll make him pay, and get you your revenge."
So, of you go and killing charles. job done, but then you get to know that actually Ray didn't have a daughter etc, and that he actually set you up, for example. He wanted to get rid of Charles because he still owned him some money but Ray didn't want his hands get covered in blood, and thus didn't want to kill Charles himself.
So, then you decide to kill Ray to let him pay for his evil doings.
So in the ending you killed both Ray and Charles, but somehow your back in neutral, maybe even bit positive, since in the time of the killing you always tought both were evil.

I posted this in the post about monsters but ill put here too relationed with the dilemma thing.

I think it should have another heroes around the world to fight u(as i explained there) with their own dilemmas, about you, about the world, or some people relationed with both(u and the other hero), instead of just dillemas of your own thoughts or ur own actions, and duels against only monsters and bosses. With a stronger sense of moral or justice or doubts or being evil, the dilemmas can be alot more interesting making u think about all around you, it's like in real life, u have too many situations to think off that u dont know what to do exactly and u have to set ur own prioritys what can lead u to a mistake, and u cant go back, wouldn't have that thing that always doing the right thing u're always good.

Something like that was realised in the Ultima series (Alrik talked already about it, and you Lar, know it aswell I bet <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> ), but the point is if you try for example to steal something from a NPC, a message pops up and will notice you, that your action is against the rules and will result in a loose in Karma points. Like that it was in Ultima. You get this message one time and from there on you should know it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
Imho this is very important for the player. The player should always know what his action will cause. This can be realised in a quick tutorial, which describes the player's main possibilities and makes quick examples with NPC actions (like stealing an item from it, open chests without his knowledge with lockpicking and so on). It should simply tell the player what is possible in the game, and which player's actions can result in actions from NPCs.

Another idea which I like in Morrowind for example, is, if you try to kill a NPC, which is important for completing the main story, a warning message will appear. So the player isn't told by the game that it's not possible to kill him. It only tells him that you can kill him, but its from there on not anymore possible to complete the main quests.

Question: "Hey! I can't finish the game! It sucks!"
Answer: "Wait a minute... why can't you finish it?"
Q: "Well... when I try to enter the final location, it says that I am not allowed to enter unless I am accompanied by Mr. X!"
A: "So, then go and find Mr. X!"
Q: "OK... but where????"
A: "In Town Y he is waiting under the bridge... he will approach you automatically."
Q: "Oh... Town Y... I found this great warhammer there and tested it on the people there."
A: "Uhm... all people?"
Q: "Yeah... man, it was awesome! One hit is enough with this great weapon! Great game!"
A: "OK, but have you also met Mr. X there?"
Q: "Where?"
A: "In Town Y... on your killing spree..."
Q: "How do I know the name of the guys? I just got there, found the warhammer and started hammering. Awesome!"
A: "Well, the names of the persons are displayed above their heads... plus, they are also shown in the dialogue boxes."
Q: "What boxes?"
A: "Dialogue... talking... to the people."
Q: "Aahh... I see..."
A: "So?"
Q: "So what?"
A: "Have you met Mr. X in Town Y?"
Q: "Nope."
A: "You haven't been under the huge bridge in the centre of the town?"
Q: "Yes, I have been there."
A: "And you haven't seen a guy there, standing at the wall and looking at you?"
Q: "Oh, yeah, there was this guy... he came to me."
A: "Great. That was Mr. X... he talks to you and says..."
Q: "He talks to me??? Man, I haven't heard anything when I was there!"
A: "Well, there should be a dialo..... I mean, a box with talking stuff when he comes to you."
Q: "Hey, I have no clue about this talking stuff. He came to me... I immediately used the awesome warhammer and tried to hit him hard in the face!"
A: "Aha... and then?"
Q: "Well... apparently there was an error... some box appeared but when I clicked on 'Continue', the error was over and I hit him! God, you should have seen his body!!!"
A: "You haven't read that error message before clickin on 'Continue'?"
Q: "Oh come on... do you read when you are in the middle of a fight?"
A: "Uhm... I am sorry but that was Mr. X you killed there. The box warned you that you can't complete the game if you kill this guy."
Q: "WHAT?? You must be kidding!"
A: "No, I am serious... you should read those boxes... they contain useful information in most cases."
Q: "HEY! If I wanted to read, I'd play Mahjongg or something! Your game sucks! I want my money back!"

P.S: Yes, I am bored cause I am doing a backup... sorry... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Sorry Elgi, didn't read your whole post <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Totally agree.

***

Elgi - funny stuff <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

@elgi : Great text ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

I might quote is in some places ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Great ything many games lack <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

Something i would like to see too, is if someone gives you a quest and someone else gives you quite the opposite you can somehow complete both sides, get the full rewards out. Also lieing you did something could be sometimes possible. But there should be a bad thing about that too...

I agree with this. (sorry I always get my examples out of gothic 3, but thats the RPG I played the last)
Again about that slave I talked about, (I believe the second post of this thread)
It should be possible to have the option to say to him: "hey, I'm actually one of the rebels, but I could use the reward, so what if I bring you back to town, claim the reward and then I will free the city (and maybe give you a piece of the pie)"
So basicly you take that slave back to the city for the reward but you free him just moments later. Thats what I wanted to do.

There are however some thoughts that crossed my mind just now.
If the quests are too much the opposite it shouldn't be possible to finish them both. In gothic 3 (again, I know <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) you could accept the quest to destroy the rebels hide-out and the one to free the town, you could however do both and that is kinda silly. Unless offcourse you hate all living things and want to be the only person in your gameworld in the end.

So I think you should be very carefull on wich quests you allow to be taken on at the same time.

However, taking on opposite quests isn't very good if you want the replay the game but do the opposite of what you did before.

And about the lieing... I don't know if that is a good idea, it would be like I used a cheatcode to finish it. (unless if it fits the story)

Short and sweet: go for it. Consequence is an important feature in RPG's that is nontheless more often than not completely lacking.