Larian Studios Forums General Chat Chat (Anything) Stop Greyhound races, the sport that kills!

@ Raze
I'm sure that in all groups there are some nutcases, like everywhere. Releasing a minx farm in the middle of the winter wasn't the smartest thing to do indeed. Some are smaller groups that cut them loose from bigger ones, to act on their own. We had a bunch of fires in the McDonalds restaurants all over Belgium for a while, they wanted to stop the hamburger places to sell meat. But there is no stopping to such things. And with causing a fire in a public place, that wont help no animal at all.
I personally think that Pamela Anderson (face of the KFC) is a twit, but the fact she supports animal rights is a good thing about her at least.
My main goal here, is that people are aware of how many animals suffer for our pleasure, our wardrobe and also for our cosmetics.
I will never risk a childs life over a dog, but I do hope never to be in that position ever.

I also wanna add this: The image of a still living skinned seal, lifting his head towards the camera, is a vision I will never forget <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" />

Raze...



To prevent the near-total slaughter of every single racing dog, including all the puppies at the breeding places, I am certainly prepared to accept an annual cull, provided it is carried out humanely.

Maybe it would be better your way - the indiscriminate slaughter of 99% or more of them - but somehow I do not feel that would be the case, nor would it actually address the problem.

If you close down dog racing because of the cruelty of the humans who run the races, all they do is go underground. Dog racing becomes another sport held in secret and the animals are tortured and destroyed in greater numbers than ever. As you've said, there is money in it - and where there is money, there are always people willing to break the law.

Moreover, it is a popular sport and one that it would actually be far easier to clean up than to actively ban. The sport itself is not like bull fighting - the deliberate torture of an animal for the amusement of crowds. Properly regulated and with appropriate penalties for animal cruelty, there is no reason whatsoever to ban the actual races.

The races itself are not the problem, and they never have been. It is the behaviour of the humans that run them in certain parts of the world that needs changing.

Greyhound racing is quite popular in Britain, but any dog handler who behaved in the manner Gal describes in this country would be in jail so fast their toes would not touch the ground.

I completely agree with you.
I said the same thing a few days ago.
But it looks like it is not the "correct" answer in this topic. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" />

Not the first time my answer has disagreed with (almost) everyone else's, Barta, I assure you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

I think they've lost sight of the objective, which is not to ban racing but to ban cruelty to animals.

Ok, this Topic is opened to be against Greyhound races, not for <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />.

In my eyes is stop all races the wrong way, but, and this is the point why i have signed this petition, it is easier to stop the greyhound races than change the behavior of this sick people.

But i do not realy think that this, or something else, can change or stop the torments.
Take a look at the attack dog fights. In the most Countrys these fights are forbidden. So the fights will hold furtive.
Ok, a Fight Arena is much smaller then a Raceparcour, but im sure, if there is money in the game, there is a way to manage it.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />

[color:"orange"]I'm sure that in all groups there are some nutcases, like everywhere.[/color]

Those kind of nuts I have in my own family. PETA (like other animal rights groups) has some real nut cases, and a lot higher up in the organization, not just at the fringes. I'm not saying you shouldn't support them or any of their causes, I'm just not recommending you take everything they say as gospel.


[color:"orange"]I also wanna add this: The image of a still living skinned seal, lifting his head towards the camera, is a vision I will never forget[/color]

As something which would evoke a strong emotion and sympathy for the animal rights movement, this shot sounds almost too good to be true...

The only person who would skin an animal alive is a sadist. Any hunter, trapper or farmer who gets a certain amount per pelt is not going to risk damaging the fur with nicks, cuts and blood (unless they are also a sadist, in which case there are cheaper and easier animals to get ahold of).
Have you ever tried to clip a dog's nails that was scared of clippers? It takes much longer than it should, requires much more effort and you risk getting bit, if only a nip. Skinning an animal alive would magnify that greatly, with absolutely no benefit.

There was a video released quit awhile ago reported to be of a seal being skinned alive. The seal was in fact dead (a news crew tracked down the hunter after the video as released), and the supposed twitches shown in the carefully edited video were just movement due to the hunter skinning it. I tried searching for this, and found a link to a different video, with its authenticity also challenged;

PeTA: Indoctrinating Kids, Encourging Harrassment, Exploiting Staged Brutality

[color:"orange"]To prevent the near-total slaughter of every single racing dog, including all the puppies at the breeding places, I am certainly prepared to accept an annual cull, provided it is carried out humanely.[/color]

An annual cull (not carried out humanely, BTW) of most of the dogs kills many more dogs than a one time slaughter.

You seem to think that there will be the political will to ban the races, and yet absolutely no effort made to protect any dogs when a ban is announced or arrests begin.


[color:"orange"]If you close down dog racing because of the cruelty of the humans who run the races, all they do is go underground.[/color]

Underground races are not going to be televised, are not going to have large stadiums with plenty of seats and concession stands, and are not going to attract anywhere near the amount of bets as currently.


[color:"orange"]Moreover, it is a popular sport and one that it would actually be far easier to clean up than to actively ban.[/color]

That was my point. The purpose of the petition is to stop cruelty to greyhounds. It doesn't matter if you think the races in and of themselves should be stopped or not, the petition is trying to stop them as they are run now. If they are forced to clean up their act by enough public pressure (and/or criminal prosecution) then that is the end of the issue.


[color:"orange"]Properly regulated and with appropriate penalties for animal cruelty, there is no reason whatsoever to ban the actual races.[/color]

Nobody is trying to ban a properly regulated race with appropriate penalties for animal cruelty. Anyone who still pushes for a ban after the greyhound race industry gives its practices a serious overhaul would be clearly unreasonable, and loose most public support.

If the law put someone in jail, he has no other choice than changing his behaviour.
I guess there are good laws against animal crualty in Germany, like in UK and France.

Raze...



I don't think the political will will ever exist to do either. That's part of my point. That would cost lots of votes AND lots of money. In a democracy, it's a rare politician who ever does what's right if it costs votes.

Greyhound racing is a popular sport, ergo banning it is a vote loser even if the majority of the people would back a ban, which they likely won't.

Animal cruelty on the other hand is a much more popular issue, with a far larger number of people likely to support it.

Thus a petition demanding an end to cruelty to greyhounds is far more likely to be supported and heard than one which calls for a total ban on racing.

This particular petition will do no good because it's aiming at the wrong target.

maybe it's not that it will do no good at all, rather it will do less compared to the action u prefer. i feel a drastic ban will drive the races to go underground. yes, it will not go away.

however Raze's rationale of reducing the availability of the races to the public is also a good start. maybe not perfect but a good one nevertheless. it is really hard to tell now as there is no research done on this.

It's not hard at all, Jang. If you try to ban any popular sport in a democracy you will have serious trouble. It's just not feasible, and no politician is going to take the idea seriously because there's no votes to be gained and a lot to be lost.

Regulating the sport properly to remove an undesirable thing that is no part of the sport itself, on the other hand, is unlikely to lose votes and with a proper PR campaign can gain a lot by showing that the politician is 'caring'.

If you want to make changes in the fabric of society or the law (Or both) you need to aim at the right targets. If you don't, you have no chance.

Elliot Kane
[color:"orange"]This particular petition will do no good because it's aiming at the wrong target.[/color]

The industry as a whole, as it is currently being run, is the target. The people at the top making most of the money while turning a blind eye to the cruelty are just as much a part of the problem as the dog owners and breeders.

The petition organizers may have done better to just target the abuse, though, and trust that eventual criminal charges from increased law enforcement would grow to include some of the management that is complicit in the abuse. You usually don't get to the top of the food chain that way, though (which may be why they are targeting the industry as a whole).


Since we both agree a ban is unlikely to ever happen, I fail to see why we are even debating this.

Whether the organizers of the petition want to ban the races regardless of any attempts to clean up the industry, or are reasonable and just want to end them as they are currently being run, is pretty much irrelevant until such reforms take place. Right now the petition is trying to draw attention to the abuse of greyhounds and refute the industry claims that cases showing up in the media are isolated incidents. The petition will be meaningless if reasonable sanctions are put in place by the racing industry, and they make an effort to prevent cruelty to the dogs.

Therefor, IMNSHO it is pointless to get hung up on the word 'ban' and debate whether the system currently in place should be attacked in addition to those individuals who are directly responsible for the animal abuse.



Janggut;
[color:"orange"]however Raze's rationale of reducing the availability of the races to the public is also a good start.[/color]

My point was not that they should go underground, but that if they did (which they won't) it would dramatically reduce the money involved, and therefor the extent of the cruelty towards greyhounds.

Raze,

What we're really debating is the viability and usefulness of this particular petition.

I say it is pointless because it is aiming at the wrong target and so will do nothing; you say that as long as it draws attention it does some good anyway.

That, to me, is the essence of our debate.

I think as far as the rest is concerned, we are actually in broad agreement <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And yet you're haveing the biggest argument this board has seen in ages <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />.

Übereil

Discussions are good, it opens eyes to things some people had no idea of. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

I'm aware that a complete ban would never work, but it's like selling something; you're trying to get the highest price, so you can go lower if needed to sell your object. That is what the petition stands for, if this is brought under the attention of Bush, he can make sure that there is more control of such things. I know a lot of greyhound owners that do races, but not for the money, more for the fun of seeing your dog run. That is what we are trying to accomplish here.

@ Raze
I wish that this image of that young seal was too good to be true. It's haunting me now for life. Just as the image I saw once on the news, not PETA related, about dolphins that were caught in fishing nets, the fishermen slit their throats and this dolphin was gasping for his life <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />
The holocaust was also soo horrible that most people didn't believe it could be true...

I know, just find it amuseing that they can have such an argument when they agree on the "important" bits <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Übereil

[color:"orange"]Just as the image I saw once on the news, not PETA related, about dolphins that were caught in fishing nets, the fishermen slit their throats and this dolphin was gasping for his life[/color]

The dolphins may be competing for the same fish that the fishing boat was going after, and getting tangled in the nets slows down the fishing, which costs them money. It is not unreasonable for a cruel, vindictive person to kill the dolphins rather than take the time to try to free them.

With fur, however, it is much harder to understand how even a sadist would operate in a manner that jeopardizes their own livelihood. There are probably some in the fur industry that trap, farm or kill in an inhumane way, but I would want more than a highly edited video clip (especially from PETA) as proof that skinning animals alive is anything more than an aberration.

Elliot Kane;
[color:"orange"]I say it is pointless because it is aiming at the wrong target and so will do nothing[/color]

It is mostly pointless because it is a petition and so will probably do nothing.


[color:"orange"]you say that as long as it draws attention it does some good anyway.[/color]

Drawing attention to the issue is pretty much all it can do (it might add a bit of credibility to those trying to stop the abuse), but that may be enough to make a difference at some point.


[color:"orange"]I think as far as the rest is concerned, we are actually in broad agreement[/color]

Pretty much.



Ubereil;
[color:"orange"]And yet you're haveing the biggest argument this board has seen in ages[/color]

The minor details in a debate are the 'important bits'. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> If we had wildly different views there would be no point in debating, since the other guy would obviously be an idiot. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> Besides, there is not much else going one here at the moment.




"It's one pound for a five minute argument, but only eight pounds for a course of ten."

- Monty Python, The Argument Sketch

I'm fully aware of that. Still find it amuseing though, not just in this case <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />.

Besides, have you heard about this thing called the Edit-button? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Übereil

Raze,

I think we are pretty solidly in agreement, now. I agree with you about PETA, too. They are far too prone to terrorism to be at all reliable.

***

Ube,

As Raze says, there's not a lot of point in discussion with anyone with whom you have no common ground.

It also looks like we're about done debating. Sorry <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />