Larian Studios Forums Divinity 2 - Ego Draconis (English) Divinity 2 - Ego Draconis News from the front

I kinda doubt turn-based combat will make its way into the game. A pause feature can provide similar benefits, though, as far deciding what attack to use and such.

Ok, ok, sorry for running off topic about the action-rpg thing. :blush: My whole point anyway was that I don't care what genre the game is classified as.

Does it really matter whether the combat in a game is more prone to hand-eye coordination or calculated stats?

Yes. Yes, that matters very, very, very much in a game. Really. A lot.

The combat style is one of the main determining factors in whether I will like, and can play a game. One click (or a couple) per opponent results in a certain number of button/key presses in a given time frame. One click per attack can easily double to quadruple that amount of clicking. Having to use various key combinations to swing, dodge, parry, etc, greatly increases the number of key presses again. Even if I had the coordination and desire to try such a combat system, my wrists would not last nearly long enough for a 50-100 hour game (unless I took 200+ days to complete it). The tendons in the back of my hand got sore after playing I of the Dragon a few hours a day, and that was just using the up, right and left arrows to fly.

The reason I am hoping you keep gamepad support is that using it for movement would be much better than the keyboard. You have not revealed much about combat, but I suspect since it doesn't use a mouse cursor, whatever you came up with would have to be at least as good on a gamepad than on a keyboard and mouse. Even if there are a lot of button presses or combinations, the shape and button positions of a good gamepad should allow a more neutral hand positioning with less effort.

Ignoring the possibility of carpal tunnel syndrome inducing controls, I just do not like twitch based gameplay. I do not want to memorize a combination of key presses and practice them over and over until I can click out the right pattern within a game's tolerance whenever certain triggers appear onscreen.

From what I have seen so far, the combat could be anything from ok to poor. If it is worse than I suspect, it could literally make the game unplayable for me. I don't want the game to be unplayable.


Or whether this sort of stuff falls under the term 'action' or not?

Not directly, but I would like the game to do well. The way you choose to market the game will have a large impact on people's first impressions. Without other information about the game, some people may assume it is yet another Diablo clone. Maybe the action RPG term will attract more people than it turns off; maybe there are enough real RPG games coming out soon that people expect more than straight hack and slash, so the action description will not have as much of a negative connotation for some people...

Lar was the one who mentioned seeing reactions online that the game may be too action oriented. I just pointed out that calling it an action RPG (and releasing mostly action style screenshots) isn't necessarily helping with that perception.


If you really didn't want us splitting hairs over 'minor' points, though, you'd give us more information about the game, so we'd have better things to discus or debate.


PS just so you don't forget, twitch based combat sucks.

@Raze

I agree 100%. For RPG's twitch based combat does suck!

Chrono Trigger was just an example of what options were available, wasn't comparing the different combat schemes. This game is already designed for real time combat.

As for remembering combo's, that be the "controller style". With keyboard style it would be like where you pause to execute a different skill.

In CT you were able to change to the slower paced combat in the middle of the game (be switching from controller to keyboard in this case) if you were just having too hard of a time. Then can switch back after the tough battle if you rather use the controller.

Maybe both can work at same time?

Raze certainly saved me a lot of typing with that, I have to say! I agree with most of it.

I think it is a huge mistake to miss-classify a game (Or assume that classifications do not matter) as the vast majority of people reading the classification will have certain expectations for it. Someone buying ED and expecting a Diablo-style game may not want to play anything more complex (Action-RPGs are vastly more popular than normal RPGs after all, which is why there are so many of them). As such, they may be less than happy when they find out their game is nothing like...

As a tabletop gamer/GM with around twenty years playing experience myself, I am happy to hear ED hits the spot for a fellow tabletop gamer

Regarding twitching - don't care as long as the controls are simple enough. Love Jade Empire, after all. I know it WILL matter to others though, so it's a point worth clarifying.

LightningLockey;
I hope that if the PC version supports gamepads that it allows keyboard controls at the same time (it should). I've switched back and forth in other game, anyway. I would want the option of moving / fighting with the gamepad, but still have the keyboard hotkeys to select skills, etc. You would at least need keyboard control in the save menu, to make named saves, unless ED is using save 'slots' (which I think unlikely).

I can't compare with 'I of the Dragon', as I've never played that game (I'm a family father with a currently expanding number of kids, so I don't have much time to play anymore ), but I can compare with DD for you. In terms of clicking-rate, I personally feel that ED will be much easier on the hands than DD was.

What's more, please don't forget that ED will not be a combat-only type of game. There will be enough story and dialog as well as beautiful scenery to enjoy while giving your hands a rest


Unfortunately, we can't. Trust me, as one of the programmers who worked most on combat and combat-related features, I would like to tell you all about it, but our hands are tied and our lips are sealed. For now...


Of course, you're absolutely right there. We have to label this baby; it's just the way marketing works. But that's what I find so sad. The reason I said this was not to criticize, but to philosophize about how our business (and, actually, all businesses and commercialization these days) work. Everything has to be labeled and categorized, ready for instant consumation. But I'm getting and again, and everybody's probably by now, so I will shut up once more


We definitely won't forget

I like to really be taking in completely by a game, have as much control over the character as possible.

I've played my share of mmo's and in the department of combat they seriously lack, I can eat, drink something etc whilst in mid combat. The mechanics of click a monster and you start attacking it just doesn't do it for me as far as combat goes. On the other hand the Diablo trademark 'click click click click click click click clickity clickclick' is just as mind-numbing. TES Dark Messiah beeing and 1st person action RPG was a pleasant tho short experience where it felt like I really was in control of combat instead of rolling dice every second.

So I'm not into overly complex combat systems, a simple system that still gives me control over every action is IMO the way to go.

I don't believe gameplay mechanics should suffer from the limitations of the roots of the genre, that meaning that RPG's rolling the dice was a limitation since you had to fantasize this all and rules had to be set to make it enjoyable. Or I would have just used my special attack to one-shot every mob I encounter. A PC or Console game takes away a lot of the imagination but it does give you the chance to have the combat more depend on more than just stats & odds.

Hi all,

My 2 cents (well it turned out to be 5 cents )

Key remapping: consider this a confirmation that you can remap your keys.

Action RPG vs RPG with a lot of action in it - obviously I prefer the latter statement as I made it my focus during all of my Leipzig presentations. Without delving into a detailed discussion here, I think I understand what you all mean as it reflects my attitude towards RPG's in general.

The only reason I like games like Diablo 2 is because I could play them with my friends and in that context, the entire item fever thing and being able to explore a vast world seemed to be sufficient. Playing it solo, I found little to attract me and I never finished it in single player.
I missed questing, puzzles and above all, choice. Choice obviously has a very big production impact so there are always limits, but that doesn't mean you can't try to put it in. Most games we label action-RPGs don't even bother and if they do, it's done in such a bad way that you wished they hadn't done it all.

Once you start introducing choice, you automatically find yourself in the position where you have to create an interesting setting, call it universe if you want, where the inhabitants and story react on the choices you make, and where the choices become more interesting if you add depth to both the universe and the characters. That's quite a complex undertaking and probably the dominant reason a lot of developers shy away from it. But it does make the game a lot more interesting and I'm quite sure that if Diablo 2 had offered choice, I'd have been more interested in it's single player mode. But then again, it's multiplayer would've suffered heavily from it.

I consider the choices you make in a RPG to be as much part of your character development as your stats and equipment, and I prefer it when players stumble into situations where they have to make choices as a result of their own actions, as it makes them feel more involved. The simplest way to do that is to litter the world with opportunities to experience interesting things and leave it upon the players to discover them. You don't enforce situations upon the player, and it's their exploration choices that bring on these interesting situations. The second thing you can do is have those interesting situations involve interesting choices. That leads to a fairly dynamic experience in which the player starts geting the feeling that his actions matter and it gives him a sense of freedom in a reactive universe.

When I hear action-RPG, I immediately have the reaction, no choice, just item fever and it's exactly that kind of thing which we tried to avoid with and . I like item/skills/stats fever and a combat system that supports that fever, but I want it to be in an environment where I have choices. And if there's no choice present for whatever reason, then at least I expect something interesting to happen after I defeated a number of foes. No combat as a reward for combat if you want. In most action-RPGs this is done by cutscenes, but my personal preference is something that involves the game world as otherwise I lose my immersion. And what better thing than an interesting choice that affects the game world ?

I've got this acronym by which I judge a RPG, it's called FUME. Rate the Freedom to develop your character, rate the Universe in which you can develop your characrter, rate the Motivation to develop your character and rate the Enemies against which you can develop your character, and if the game scores high on all four fronts, you most likely have a pretty cool RPG.

Or put otherwise

F=all the actions and choices I can make in the game world
U=the quality of the simulation and the visualisation of the world
M=the story that drives me forward
E=the combat

Most action RPGs only take care of the M & E part, with total disregard for the F & U. Good RPGs try to offer all four, though that makes it exponentially more complicated to develop.

We're trying to get you a good FUME experience, and to cut a lot story short, that's why I prefer the term RPG with action in it rather than action RPG

As for the E, the combat part which actually was the focus of a lot of the discussion here, we want to make it accessible and tactically interesting while still getting some adrenalin in your body when you're playing. The pause button is one where you pause the game, select an action to execute after which the game executes the action and you can continue playing (or pause again to do another action). I think it'll take care of the accessibility which seems to be the dominant concern here and if we pace things right, it shouldn't prevent the adrenalin (and you're not forced to use it). The needing to pick the right skills and right position finally takes care of the tactical part.

Lar

Sektor;
In terms of clicking-rate, I personally feel that ED will be much easier on the hands than DD was.

That's good to know. I find left click and hold much easier on the hands than WASD (or equivalent) for movement, but if you can make that statement, then at least I know combat can not be extremely micro-managed.
BTW, combat in I of the Dragon was kind of like a laid back flight simulator (using a hang glider that could dive, climb and breath fire/ice/poison). I used the up arrow to fly forward, the left/right arrow keys to change direction (most of the time high maneuverability was not required) and the spacebar to attack (IIRC).

I know ED will not be combat-only (though the controls are still relevant in non-combat situations). The discussion on combat systems was an extension of the 'action RPG' term discussion that Lar started.... um... or something like that.

Anyway, I assumed you couldn't talk about combat yet, since you weren't doing so. I was hoping when the playtests started (or finished) you might release so info, but if not I'm sure you would in plenty of time before release.



Lar;
Thanks for the description of some of your design process / philosophy.

As for the 'action RPG' term on the Div2 site, since we pretty much share the same opinion of it, I will not bring it up again (if it remains, there are obviously other factors involved).

Me, I'm rather an extreme example of a role-player.

Insofar, as I try to avoid combat because I don't like it much.

Okay, a fight every now and then - there's nothing too bad with it.

But a game which defines quest-solving only by combat, like BG did in most cases, and with is carried out to an extreme ( nothing but battle !) in Sacred and in Blizzard's D2, is not my case.

One of several reasons I prefer non-combat over combat is that the non-combat means of solving are mostly the more difficult ones.

You have to plan.

You have to plan around several corners, maybe.

From an intellectual point of view, non-combat behaviour is more challenging - especually if the reputation thingy is quite far evolved. If people react to what I do, then it defenitively requires more thinking from my side to play out a character so that people (read: NPCs) are really allowing me to solve a quest via for example "social skills".

An example for this is the quest with the hidden treasure in the park. You get this quest only with a certain reputation. And in order to receive this reputation, you must plan quite far into the future.

This is kind of "choices", too.


Hack & slay isn't intellectually stimulating at all to me. It just needs ... Well, hack & slay.

The only planning - thus using the brain - is in D2, for example, in planning what kind of eqipment do I need in order to defeat the next major boss. In principle, this is simple calculation of pros and cons of let's say an armor plate piece.

Another point in planning of D2 is in into which direction I shall develop my character.
Thus arose the term of what I know in German language as "Verskillen", I don't know what's the English word for that.
It just means picking the wrong set of skills / taking emphasis on the wrong set of skills.

In a rather free-play RPG, this shouldn't happen, at least this is my opinion. The verskilling of characters means kind of an limitation: You can use the wrong way, the wrong road.
In a free-form RPG, imho all ways should be open.
But that's just my opinion.

To sum it up: Hack & Slay is totally nonstimulating to me from an intellectual point of view.
The contrary can be said of PS:T, for example.

Drakensang, to use a current example, is a middle thing. In the Bloodmountains area, there's the choice to suppoprt the group of the God of the Order etc. or to help Witches. The whole gameplay in this area is affected by this.

On the other hand, there are no choices (the money budged seems unfortunately have cut down so many things, some even the devs wanted in) when you steal from someone and get caught if you steal and get *not* caught, there should be no consequences, obvioiusly).
There are a few similar cases to this.

Agreed, and as far as ED is concerned, you luckily have nothing to fear on that score.

@Lar

I do like the sound of a well rounded RPG for a change, and I appreciate the addition of the pause both for the sake of my carpal tunnel and well as the tactical advantage.

I do note that having to continually drive your character around the screen with the WASD keys is also hard on the wrists and is more distracting than a simple mouse click.

Personally i care alot about the choices you can make in an RPG, it makes you feel alot more involved and adds replayability.

Character development is very important for me too because i just love trying to make a powerfull/interesting character, it also adds replayability because you can make different sorts of characters if the skill system etc is good.

The story of a game is also very important to me and i guess about everyone else that loves RPG's. A good story makes you feel more involved and increases the overall quality of the game.

Story involved enemies are important too because they are part of the story and are a/the challenge you must overcome. Normal enemies not really related to the story are less important but should fit the game's environment and thats adds credibilty.

It is really great to hear that you are trying to give Div2 a good FUME expierence.

Lar...

I love the FUME philosophy, I have to say. Reading through your post, I was nodding in total agreement like one of those car mascots

A developer who really and truly understands RPGs...

Really looking forward to ED, now

Elliot,

Imagine how great the games would be from companies that have 100+ people working on them if they built them like Larian does.

Ah well, they are too arrogant to see the light and shall dwell in the darkness of their own ignorance.

LightningLockey...

I think that's pretty much the ultimate Gamer's dream...

Great thread! I wish all communities were like that. It´s rare to see a dev himself posting, but we see it here

QUESTION: what about co-op mode? Is it really trashed or we may be see it before release?

As Lar explained in the topic I'd love to see a coop-mp (for those who have not seen it), multi-player support was put on hold due to the difficulty reconciling that style of play with the complex story and quest system they wanted to create. As it is virtually impossible that they will be dramatically changing the story or quest system at this point, multi-player support before release is extremely unlikely.

Lar did use the work 'hold', though, so it at least leaves open the possibility that they may at least be considering a way to add some form of multi-player support in a hypothetical later patch or expansion. Maybe.
If they have spare time after release, though, I'd rather modding tools be given priority over multi-player support, if it boils down to a choice between the two (which it probably will not, as there are other factors to consider in either case).

The only thing they can do is create expansion quests that will be impossible to beat solo. The major problem will be hacked characters going online as they are saved on private pc's instead of a server maintained by Larian.

Now if there is a summoning skill that a 2nd player can take the role of the summoned creature it be rather interesting.