Larian Studios Forums Divinity 2 - Ego Draconis (English) Divinity 2 - Ego Draconis Please help me understand Sassan [SPOILERS]

First, you're typing 20k bytes of your suggestions about meaning of this quest, but then, SUDDENLY, you say "I played through that section without giving it too much analysis. which is lie now.

And you say you aren't hypocrite after that?
...


And you're completely ignoring the fact that D2 is out in 2009 and a lot of things changed since then, and even it's story in manual was changed AFTER the release. This makes older sources completely unreliable under such conditions.
Oh, but may be you want to talk how much connections has Story.pdf from DD and D2? yeah, let's talk about Orcs, dwarfes (which wasn't even mentioned in D2, but but.. the source is 6 yo!), about SUDDEN appearance of some dragon knights in their current image, about Maxos and other Dragon lords, about a part of the Rivellon that nevar heard about Lord of Chaos and about broken timeline between games?
It would be hilarious if we take your few years old source as the most reliable and start dancing from it. I can see the end of it, yeah.


So, those suggestions you have posted means.. nothing and not needed? Why did you do it then if the explanation was obvious?


Already did it few times, see first reply in this post. You even don't watch for your words :P


Ah, and almighty english remark that settles everything an shows who is right here, yeah. Why it took you so long? ;P I thought you will give it in a 2nd or 3rd post.
Sorry, but I must remind you that you can use this only once, because if you continue this convo you accept the conditions of yours interlocutor's "englesh" :P

Kein. Please, just SHUT UP. No one cares except you.

I really don't understand the problem....
Is it normal that your creature is peeing all the time? Because I never see him drinking...
Same for you character, he/she is never eating or sleeping... is that possible/normal?
And if your creature dies, you can bring him back to live, without going to the Hall of Echoes. You only need the skull.

Perhaps Sassan is such a creature? And she needs the ring instead of a skull?

And why is a logical solution needed... it's a fantasy game, everything is possible

Please understand this:

I am NOT -demanding- precise scientific, peer-reviewed research for every aspect of the game.

But it would be nice if, you know, the game made even the -slightest- effort at explaining major plot points. Especially if said plot points seem to contradict other plot points which are driving the entire plot of the game. A fantasy game doesn't mean you -must- turn off your brain, and abandon all logic.

I think that it's a good thing when the "rules" of a universe are clearly established.

That stuff Raze said may or may not be correct. My complaint is that the game never even bothers offering a minimal explanation about why the ring restores long-dead Sassan to a fully-alive person.

Well, let us hope that we'll get an answer on this question in the add-on.

Larian already said that "Soon they’ll recognize that many of the characters they met in the main game aren’t who they pretended to be."

Maybe Sassan is one of them. Maybe she is evil and is going to destroy your battletower. Maybe that explains why she has a 'neutral' opinion in the trading screen.

"...and the answers to many questions in the Divinity universe revealed."

Haha, I take it your being sarcastic! I also want an explanation for the fact there's no day-night time in ED. That's not normal!!!!!

First, you're typing 20k bytes of your suggestions about meaning of this quest, but then, SUDDENLY, you say "I played through that section without giving it too much analysis. which is lie now.

Yesterday I drove to the store.
When I was 12 I never drove a car.

Is the second statement a lie now?

When I played the game I never gave much thought to this quest (early February).
After this topic was started, I did think about this quest (May 8th/9th), and posted a couple hypothesis to explain the difference in resurrection methods.


And you say you aren't hypocrite after that?

Yes. So would everyone else.



And you're completely ignoring the fact that D2 is out in 2009 and a lot of things changed since then, and even it's story in manual was changed AFTER the release. This makes older sources completely unreliable under such conditions.

Things do get added and changed in sequels, but that is generally for a reason. Why would Ygerna's age be suddenly changed? The story makes sense as it is, and there is nothing to be gained by altering that portion of the history.

Larian can, and should, expand on the gameworld and change existing areas in logical ways given the jump in time between games. If they need to re-write history a bit for certain additions to make sense, I'm ok with that. They may not have had dragon knights in mind before doing DD, but with a 3D game engine, flying can be added to give an additional element to the game. The previous history has not been changed, other than dragon knights being conspicuously absent from the area of Rivellon shown in DD.


Oh, but may be you want to talk how much connections has Story.pdf from DD and D2? yeah, let's talk about Orcs, dwarfes (which wasn't even mentioned in D2, but but.. the source is 6 yo!)

If the same character was in the story.pdf and D2:ED, then it would certainly be a valid source of information, presumably reliable unless there were differences in the game. If there are no actual discrepancies, though, there is no reason to assume the older source is unreliable.

The absence of orcs and dwarves in that area of Rivellon was not explained explicitly in the game, and there was just a book to suggest the elves went underground to hide and eventually died off. That doesn't mean they will not reappear in a subsequent game, though, either as NPCs or the remains of their civilizations.



So, those suggestions you have posted means.. nothing and not needed? Why did you do it then if the explanation was obvious?

I said in many cases an explanation can be obvious. There were at least 2 people who didn't think this particular one was.



Ah, and almighty english remark that settles everything an shows who is right here, yeah. Why it took you so long? ;P I thought you will give it in a 2nd or 3rd post.

Have I, at any point in this discussion, used personal attacks?
Why can you call me fanboi, hypocrite, liar, troll and childish, yet I mention English isn't your native language and that is what settles the argument and shows who is right?

Is it unreasonable to think there may be misunderstandings due to language differences?
Your English is very good, but I've had a conversation with a German person who's English was also very good, and used a common, harmless phrase in English that had a very, very different connotation in German. Just those 3 words put a whole different spin on the entire message, which took another couple messages to clarify exactly what was originally meant.

Makes sense now.


Yes, of course. But since it is the SEQUEL, a continue of the game in the same universe it must respect it's own basis and conditions. If it is not, then how it's can be a sequel or how we even can talk about the sane and serious plot if the creators itself ignore it?
>_>


Why are you still talking about Ygerna's age? I mean: you and only you mentioned it, and now you put this in almost in every sentence of yours. I don't understand, why are you keep mentioned it? Such persistence worth applauses, but make no sense to me: why?



Logical way, I agree.
But there is none.


I'm ok too while it is done with the sane conditions. I mean: why re-make and destroy the old good DD universe, if you can may different game? The only explanation I see (consider the fact that Larian did it on some reason, not just because they mad/crazy) is a so-called "money question". It is hard to pronounce new game as good and wide as already existing franchise. I know, business is business, people make money, that's the idea, but such sacrifices for the name of the money I can't accept. It's a shame. Unprofessional.




No, previous story WAS changed by changes in new plot and setting introduced in the new universe of D2. Yes, I say "new universe", because D2 completely differs from old DD/BD universe. Too many changes without logical background/preconditions in both universes, like with sudden disappearance of Orcs/dwarfes without even mentioning why (D2 part of story), like sudden appearance of some others wizards that were befriends with dragons and live in the part of the Rivellon that never heard about LoC, sudden appearance of Dragon Knight in the form as they are in D2 (half-dragon, not some wyvern-riders like in DD; DD/BD part of story). There are too many examples I even don't have such amount of free time to listen all of them, lol.

You can't accept D2 changes without accepting their influence at the universe we knew. Some things from 6yo "reliable" source got changed or deleted without explanation, some appeared in D2 without much sensible explanation as well. This is a silly and lame "deus ex" elements.

Now we have TWO universes and they ARE differs from each other. That's what I meant when I said "unpolished" and "unsynced". Devs broke things they made and teh efforts didn't cost the sacrifices.

It is good that copyrights aspects forced JoWood/Spellbound make Arcania, but not Gothic 4. Even if they ruined the universe like Larian did it has different name at last. All fans see continuation of teh series in Risen, but not in the Arcania/G3_addon ;P I really like this situation.


Please, no suggestions, I already told you I'm not interested into fans suggestions. The situation is simple as a pumpkin: is there an explanation or not? OK, I understand, explanation can be in sequel, but why there is not even a mention about where are they and what happened? This part of the Rivellon nevar heard about them? No books or notes left? Srsy, the answer is simple: devs didn't care about that and didn't paid any attention to such deus ex elements they introduced, they even didn't bother to make some preconditions, not even a little
Shame.


Exactly, as mine was. It is obviously a gameplay element, not a part of the plot/setting so, it make no sense to take it so serious and trying to explain something devs didn't even paid attention. But of course all fans do such things. Awlays.
There were at least 1 man who agree with me and think there is no reason to take it so serious.


You did? I never said that, but since you mentioned it... oh well, I'm ok with it. No really, I got used of such "english remarks" already and you don't need to be ashamed of that. It's ok.


No, that was the only correct expressions/words I've found. As you just said - english isn't my native language, so I use everything I can to explain what I mean. But of course, even if it's suitable, it's can be unpolite I take it, so, that's why I'd add a note "(no offense)". Why did you ignore that? Do you want to state it as personal attacks to state something else? No need to choose such difficult path, just do it if you want.


May be, but well, lesse. What's the misunderstanding you're talking about: some user asked a question, I answered to him and use the conception of his question as an example stated my opinion about the game's plot. The you came and suddenly start to argue with me about... about what, btw? So, word by word, we're here, where is a misunderstanding?

I know what I'm talking about, but somehow I'm unsure what are you talking about and no sure why are you started all this. And you - you know?

I don't see lack of orcs and dwarves, for example, as a change in the history or universe. If Larian set a game at the southern border of Belgium, and had a few French areas and NPCs, it wouldn't be a different universe if they made another game 50km up the road and didn't mention France at all.
Because dragon knights ruled parts of Rivellon, it doesn't mean that they must have ruled every part, throughout all history. Pick even a tiny country with any kind of game industry or arts culture, and you are sure to find stories focused on that area, without mentioning nearby regions, even if they are powerful or influential.

Regardless, I do agree Larian should have had references to orcs and dwarves, etc, even without an actual explanation of what happened. They could have included a mention of the kingdom (dukedom?) of Ferol bearing the brunt of Damian's initial attack due to their refusal to accept the help of the dragon knights until it was too late, etc.



Why would I possibly be ashamed of thinking language differences could be part of the problem when you misunderstood what I was saying several times (about not analyzing Sassan's resurrection when I played that part of the game)?
Also, even if the statements about analyzing after the fact but not during the quest were in conflict, that is not what hypocrisy means (a conflict between what you do and what you say), so some form of language problem was evident.

I did not take offense at the personal insults you used, I just noted that you did in fact use them, but was quick to take offense to a comment about English not being your native language, which was in no way an insult, and not used as a way to dismiss your comments.
I thought I had explain things more clearly (an example earlier may have helped) but you still called me a liar/hypocrite, so either there was a misunderstanding (possibly due to language) or something else was going on.

I think that in some of the Black Ring writings or dialogue, a reference is made to the Black Ring occupying Yuthul Gor, the homeland of the orcs, and using them as slave labour.

Since the elves who lived in the Dark Forest are mostly or completely gone, it might also explain why there aren't any dwarves around either - they sealed themselves up underground when the forces of the Black Ring marched on the Dark Forest.

Still, more references would be welcome, especially if it meant seeing those races again (as more than 100% hostile monsters).

But I see *shrugs*
If you want to change the universe you've created do it in reasonable, logical way, We aren't some "angry german kid" who destroying it's own "sand castle" just because hit a finger about a stone. That's the difference between a serious plot and some infantile (childish) work of a kid. And that's why Dragon Age's plot is much better then D2's one and even you agree with that.
Now you're arguing with himself? :P



"One cannot assume the truth of what one declares without presuming the falsity of all incongruous declarations. Since all men assume the truth of their declarations, this presumption becomes at best ironic and at worst outrageous. Given the infinity of possible claims, who could be so vain as to think their dismal claims true? The tragedy, of course, is that we cannot but make declarations."

You live in Canada I take it, right? Do you know about France? I bet you do. I bet you know about French language a bit, about ppl who lives in France. Hell, you even know about Australia or Africa. Why is that so? Right, may reason: mass-media, education, books... Books! There is a plenty of books in Divinity Universe. Hell, DD had much more books then TES3+TES4 along. And, if you remember, there were many information about dwarfes, elves, orcs, even dragons (important note: at that moment of events dragons were myths in Rivellon, they disappear; will use it later).
Now, let's follow my logical thread carefully: as we know from D2 geographical info - Broken Valley/Orobas Fjords not so far from Aleroth and Rivertown places. There are zeppelins flying in-between those lands. And yet, with all this possibilities of information/knowledge spreading (as books, as oral speech) one part of the Rivellon nevar heard about many wide and well known things, like, language of orcs/dwarfes, about things they make (dwarfes weapons/beer, elven jewerly, etc), not even and image or description of those races. Srsly, no matter how authentic Divinity Universe is, it always a copy, an allegory/parody of our world. Even in 12 century ppl from the North part of Earth (Great Britain for example) had some knowledge about black ppl of Africa (it was exotic), and it not just 50kms between, it is thousand miles.

Srsly, can you even hear your own words? "If Larian set a game at the southern border of Belgium, and had a few French areas and NPCs, it wouldn't be a different universe if they made another game 50km up the road and didn't mention France at all." - I BEG you to listen the sane voice of your mind. What you just said it is not even your usual suggestions, it is... sorry, but that's utterly stupid. Really.

P.S. Oh, and no, it is not an insult. Just FIY. Tbh, now I don't know which my words are insults for you and which aren't.


...
Well, I see a perfect trap here btw, it is shame to do not use it. Let's start then. To make an example is much more perfect we must take similar country as that part of Rivellon where D2 takes place in. Hmm, lesse, it has airships (zeppelins), it own history (dragon knights times, yeah, history lol, within 50 years), trade guilds (we saw many traders), uses earths' minerals - well, pretty developed "part", isn't? So, I must pick-up similar small country... lesse... "Republika ng Pilipinas" aka Philippines? So, are you trying to tell they know nothing about France or Canada, no mentions about other part of the world, about other races or their work (art, music)?

Srsly, your analogy looks silly now, isn't?
We can change times if you want, to match the age of D2 (it is setting who dictates us an aprox. age) but in the end it changes nothing. You got caught in your own trap and I can't help you here, sorry.


Exactly, they NEED preconditions, otherwise it is so-called Deus Ex machina element. A plot with such elements always was considered as low, cheap - exactly my point in this convo.
But they didn't. That's fact. Fact (one of many) that proves my point.


*le sigh*
I told you already, I haven't used any personal insults against you. It is how you WANT it to be, it is how you see it. My english isn't perfect but that does not mean I planned to insult you.
Well... whatever suits you. It is fun, actually, that you accept the bad state of my english but not not accept the after-effects/consequences of that. Are we again return back to hipocristy?

"I tell you, guilt dwells nowhere but in the eyes of the accuser."


Actually, come to think of it... Hm, interesting, I pointed on this discrepancy in your words within few posts of mine on previous page but you did give a suitable explanation only in your previos post, until that you were trying to avoid my point.
Why is that so? May be I was right?

You live in Canada I take it, right? Do you know about France? I bet you do.

I do in fact know about France. If I walked into a few dozen houses around me and picked one book out of every bookcase, though, I may not find anything related to France. If BC, Alberta and Saskatchewan were under attack from the Northwest Territories and on the verge of going to war with each other, I don't know how often France would come up in conversation.

Even if a sequel is planned out in great detail, the first game can never foreshadow everything that is included 8 years later. Plenty of game series have added additional lands with lots of history that was never mentioned in the earlier games.


as we know from D2 geographical info - Broken Valley/Orobas Fjords not so far from Aleroth and Rivertown places. There are zeppelins flying in-between those lands.

Well, there are at least zeppelins flying back and forth 70+ years after DD took place. Before the war with Damian and the Black Ring, Rivertown was not necessarily as significant; Aleroth definitely wasn't.
The war also reshaped the land physically, with magic flattening mountains, etc, and even during BD the farmlands in Ferol were being taken over by swamp. The trade routes (for goods and information) during D2:ED are not all going to be the same as they were in DD.


What you just said it is not even your usual suggestions, it is... sorry, but that's utterly stupid. Really.

There are plenty of books, movies, games, etc that are set in a specific location, and do not include information about the world outside of there, or discuss knowledge each character would reasonably have that was not related to the situation they were in.


So, I must pick-up similar small country... lesse... "Republika ng Pilipinas" aka Philippines? So, are you trying to tell they know nothing about France or Canada, no mentions about other part of the world, about other races or their work (art, music)?

Of course they know about other parts of the world, but it is not necessarily going to come up in day to day conversations, and many books, legends, etc there will focus on that particular region, their history and culture.

Your point, as I understand it, is that because D2:ED introduced significant history not mentioned in DD/BD, it is effectively in a different game world. My point is that there are many stories (both historical and fictional) about specific regions and events, which do not mention other regions (even if they are nearby) or other events (even if they are important).

Right now if I flew to the Philippines, I'm sure I could find information about Canada, and possibly other Canadian travelers. If I stayed away from tourist areas, though, and there was some significant local event going on, I'm also sure I could do a fair bit of exploring and talking without finding any references at all to Canada (assuming I blended in, so there wasn't an obvious reason for people there to bring it up).

If someone came to my house, I don't know if they could find any evidence of the existence of the Philippines. I have a world atlas (somewhere) as well as an old set of encyclopedias and a couple odd travel books, but casual browsing of books and drawings around here wouldn't necessarily turn up anything. I don't know the last time the Philippines came up in conversation, so even if a house guest stayed here for awhile, they may not learn anything about it.



I told you already, I haven't used any personal insults against you.

I didn't say you planned or intended to insult me. You did use words that are generally insults, though (liar and hypocrite) unless they are backed up by proof, and personal terms (fanboi, troll) that are often used to dismiss a person rather than deal with the details of their argument (so they can be used as insults).


It is fun, actually, that you accept the bad state of my english but not not accept the after-effects/consequences of that.

Actually, I think a significant part of the problem was that your English is good enough that at first I wasn't allowing as much as I should have for possible inaccuracies.


Are we again return back to hipocristy?

In order to return I would have had to been there in the first place.

This is not a big deal, but you have been using that work incorrectly. Hypocrisy means taking a public position on something, but acting differently in private. A double standard is not hypocrisy (though obviously hypocrites have double standards), and neither is a lie (hypocrites are inherently dishonest, but a liar is not necessarily a hypocrite).

A conservative politician who campaigns on family values and has an affair is a hypocrite and a liar. A politician who has an affair but has never promoted family values or condemned anyone who had an affair is a liar, but not a hypocrite.
A actress who is active in liberal causes (like universal daycare) but guilty of tax evasion is a hypocrite. Someone who is not promoting a government program (creation or expansion) or trying to increase the scope of government, requiring everyone else to pay their taxes in order to fund, can evade taxes and not be a hypocrite.



Actually, come to think of it... Hm, interesting, I pointed on this discrepancy in your words within few posts of mine on previous page but you did give a suitable explanation only in your previos post, until that you were trying to avoid my point.

There was no discrepancy.

I did not try to avoid your point, and asked you several time for clarification of what your point was. You didn't clarify what you meant, presumably because you thought you were being as clear as I thought I was being.

While you may have only found the last explanation 'suitable', I did restate that point several times trying to make myself clearer. It was only after I couldn't see how anyone (at least a native English speaker) could not understand the logic that I considered and brought up language as a possible problem, and then after you replied, gave an example and added dates to my restating of the 'during' and 'after game' quest analysis statements.


Why is that so? May be I was right?

Nope, still wrong.






...on that particular issue, anyway.

LOL actually for me it's just plot game but yeah sometimes I wonder about this too, but logically Sassan is more powerful than Ygerna since she only need a ring for everything will back just like before

I can take it and I didn't blame larian for this plot (once again just fun for it and it's just fantasy) sometimes it's funny but yeah it's just a game

but my question is Laiken have child with Carmina but not with Sassan LOL, was that Laiken don't like her or what? Or maybe Laiken already kill Sassan before try to have kids with her LOL? (this game really required lots of human, yeah whatever it's female or male, I noticed in some cave that have so many skeleton / too many sacrifice so if they don't breed more maybe human will perish in this game LOL)

What's exactly your point here? Did you play D2? Since the hero doesn't extinguish the candles "that not even a strong wind is able to", quite the opposite the hero calms the wind with a spell, to light the candles afterwards, because the strong wind prevented that. You make it sound like the Dragon Knight was some kind of superhero, who's stronger even than the nature's forces (the wind is of course magical, when you approach the grave, there's suddenly some strong wind, when seconds earlier, it was clear, but it still looks like a force of nature). And even if it was, like you made it sound, if a strong wind can't extinguish some candles (because of some strong magic kept them lit) and the hero can do that, well as a main character, a special gifted person, they should be able to do such a feature. Most prophecies work like that, a marked one, a hero from legends, an incarnate can do some really powerful stuff to prove, that they are the right person to save the world. Like Lucien, the Divine One for example. If they don't do that miraculous stuff, how are they different from a commoner? How could they later wield a powerful weapon/magic to stand against the evil, that they are destined to defeat (in most cases at least)?

Argh, please don't summon him! D:

Why not, I enjoyed reading through their conversation. XD This proves one of his points wrong, if he didn't understand a simple premise of a quest, the hero needs to find a spell to calm the wind, to be able to light up the candles and call Sasan's ghost, rather than "the hero being stronger than the strongest wind", the chances are, that he might be wrong with the other points as well. Isn't there a conversation with Sasan's ghost about the ring? Didn't she specified somehow the importance of it? I mean a spirit dwells in the physical world for some reason (we know that from the ghost near lady Morgana in Farglow), they could go to the Hall of Echoes at any given moment, but they refuse to do that, before their work is done (the spirit near Morgana has no unfinished business, he simply doesn't want to leave, he loves alchemy and wants to study it more). So it might not be the ring itself, that brought back Sasan to life, it might be the strong connection, that Sasan (well now Sasan's ghost, a powerful being that she is) builds to it. A spirit could do lot's of things, but they are like automats, they require an input (a specific business being finished, an item with a very strong connection, etc) to trigger the correct response.

I agree it was a good read. I am also amazed that it was allowed to continue. Kudos for that to Larian and Raze - private sites aren't all that popular now but many were there precisely because of the ease of getting kicked off company sites if the approved line wasn't followed.

The approved line here is pretty much "say what you think"! As long as it's not actually illegal, disruptive or bullying, pretty much anything goes.