Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

It's the main theme of the romance / friendship. Early in act 1 you can ask him something like "do you think being powerful means you don't have to fear anything"? He looks at Tav like he just sprouted tentacles and replies . . . "well . . . yes"

I think so many people forget it because the subsequent line is so great. "I'll remind you that power corrupts" SA: "Oh, I hope so a little corruption sounds fun"

When you in that room and he is desperate to complete the ritual he is acting out of fear. So yes you are leaning into his weakness, saying you are right be afraid but the power of this ritual will take away that fear and you won't need to fear anything anymore" So yes you said you are weak but this vile act will make strong.

So an important way you are asking him to be weak and dooming him to slavery. Before he was a slave to sanguine desire and a slave to Cazador. Now he's a slave to his desire to control.


Nicely said. You are absolutely right that fear leads him to complete the ritual. Both you and @Anska make a compelling case for fear being at the root of his behavior (even if the roots run deep) but then you have the problem of explaining the reunion behavior. Of course it could be wound but I tend to think the AA's cardinal trait is a desire to dominate. The whole hearing the whispers of creatures (including Tav) who want to be controlled . . .

So the narrow but important question is did fear lead him to a very dark place - and that new place is an obsession with domination - or is still controlled by fear. I tend to favor "entirely new creature with some aspects of the old". Kinda like The Emperor. TE has some of Balduran's traits but he's transformed, new typically mind flayerish traits now control him.

Anska, a reply to your excellent post is coming. Soon. TM.

A desire to dominate and being motivated by fear are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I would say they are complementary. As someone who struggles with an anxiety disorder, I can tell you from experience that one of my coping behaviours is to try to control everything in my environment. Deep seated paranoia and lack of trust could easily manifest as a compulsion to make everything ‘just so’.

Which is to say, you’re both right.

That would be my thoughts and my experience too, you feel much more at ease when you have control over your environment. When on the other hand you have to deal with a situation in which everything seem to be out of your control - the description of Astarion's feelings during the ritual when you read his mind is very apt, for me at least.

I think, I already wrote this in another thread, but that's basically why A!Astarion is triggering for me, he induces anxiety for me because he reminds me of my own anxiety and the terror of being in its clutches, while S!Astarion gives me hope and reminds me there is a better way of dealing with fear than to give in.

@KillerRabbit, take your time. I'm always happy to read your thoughts.

Isn't that the conversation at camp where the first round of options goes with (roughly), "you think having powers goes without consequences/obligations", or "what's the problem, you're free, enjoy it", and "we're not helpless, we have the tadpoles" ? Then there's another round where you can chose to go with "well, power corrupts", and such an answer. I sometimes chose the "I'd hate for heroes to have the wrong idea about you", where he rants about the fact heroes didn't free him, Illithids did. I think that's basically the one where he encourages us to use that power, like he intends to. I don't remember it to be about fear specifically.

The theme of the conversation is about power, not fear.
Astarion has sought power since he was a corrupt magistrate. Was he afraid then too? He's always been power hungry. Even before he was a vampire. His character sheet directly says this.

I think it's exactly that dialog. And as I recall, it occurs after he's drunk off bear and he wants to talk. Just your second given variant evokes the answer that (I don't remember verbatim, but the meaning) that power gives you the opportunity to do whatever you want, including the opportunity to be "kind".


This.

And another interesting point.
In the epilogue, Mintara says that not all rulers are monsters, and conquest is not necessarily to sow death and destruction.

Yes, in the release he was still a magistrate, a man of power.
That's what he chose for himself when he was mortal. Magistrates don't simply become Magistrates in Baldur's Gate. Not a merchant, not an artisan - someone who rules the law in the upper city and can sentence people to death.
Power is in the blood of Astarion.

To me his tone and demeanor makes it pretty clear that he's just saying these things to placate you, to appeal to your heroic impulses in order to convince you of his argument. When you save the tieflings, when you actually do something kind and heroic, he's unhappy about it. He shows that he's not actually initerested in being kind or using power for other people. We just demonstrated that we're powerful enough to help people and be heroic. His reaction isn't innocent concern or just plain caution. It's disgust. He's upset that we put ourselves at risk for people who can do nothing for us. Also don't forget that he consistently shows himself to be a sadist, he enjoys hurting people just because he can, he finds it fun. Astarion does not start out being a good person. I don't blame him for that. Everything he's been through is bound to twist all but the most pure and strong of will. But that doesn't change the fact that who he is when you find him is someone who's cruel, sadistic and selfish and desperate. Why would giving him the power to never have to worry about being held accountable change him for the better?

And regarding the Minthara quote, MAYBE conquest isn't always to sow death and destruction, but it's very rarely out of a selfless drive. At best it's an act done to benefit the people already under the ruler's aegis. It is at best a necessary evil. But as I like to say, necessary evil's are still evil, just like they're still necessary.

According to the D&D manual, both in the fifth edition and in previous ones, vampire spawns are of evil alignment. In the case of vampires and their spawns, they are evil by their undead nature. No matter how innocent or good you may have been in life, as an undead, you will tend towards evil, and your very existence darkens the world. Any character of a good alignment should want the destruction of an undead. This would include Astarion. That's why he tries to lure the group's leader to his side to protect himself, using the weapons he believes he has.

Depending on the alignment and motivations of the player character, carrying out the Ascension could be a good way to capitalize on the destruction of the 7007 undead. Both to strengthen the group for the battle against the Netherbrain and possibly a loving companion sees it as a cure for vampirism, being returned to life and therefore freed from his undead nature while retaining his gifts.

Obviously, this is not a simple decision, and I don't think there is a right or wrong way to go about it. It depends solely on how the player experiences it and how they act depending on the alignment and motivations of their character. Some may reject Ascension because they believe that everything that is being done is evil and bad for everyone. Some may reject Ascension to prevent the spawn from gaining power, seeing it as a future competitor to be eliminated if the player character has aspirations of solo domination and prefers their romantic partner to be a weak and easily governable being who is at their service. Some may support Ascension out of empathy and support for their romantic partner with whom they have a bond. Some may Ascend him because they later try to take advantage of the trust of the romantic bond to try to steal power later (Unfortunately, this evil option is not contemplated in the game).

There are as many motivations and responses to a single event as there are players. What makes role-playing great is that precisely all of these outcomes can be optimal and enjoyable for the player. Creating a route and then making it unpleasant, crushing any attempt to contribute to the story with very specific animations, denies the player's ability and muddies not only a route but the entire game. If a linear story is narrated, with a benign player character deceived by a malign and abusive non-player character where the player can do nothing, we are not talking about role-playing, a campaign scenario with multiple options, but about a novel with a linear story. Because what makes this game (and role-playing games in general) great is how you can make this your story, your character's story, where your solutions to the challenges and events of the game contribute and matter.

Returning to the Ascension, I believe that the act of sacrifice is not the most evil part of the ritual itself, but the terrible process of obtaining all those souls. However, at the moment they were raised as undead, they were already lost

I'm not saying Astarion is a hero. Especially not in the first act. He's an jerk all the way through. But he's got good judgment. He's logical. Why do you think he's only saying these things for the GG? He's talking about strength, about how the strong can do anything, you don't have to be an exceptional villain. And I understand why he feels that way, and l believe his.

Again, the beauty of interpretation. You see one story, I see another.

Let's look at it from a different angle, did our hero slaughter a lot of NPS along the route, or could have been an outright jerk, but chose not to subjugate an Highest brain and that's it, hero?

Heroes in white capes did not assert their power and a place in the world with flowers and unicorns. It's not always just the villains who sit in power, and the heroes aren't always the real heroes. I like this idea that things aren't as one-sided as black and white.

This is basically how I feel. Astarion is multi-faceted and the beauty of him as a companion is that you could weave various narratives around him that all felt true to his character. There’s enough ambiguity that it leaves space for the player to tell their own story.

I see him in terms of shades of grey, with no definite ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ perspective on him. I’d like the game to preserve that, and the scared facial expressions on Tav detract from that player freedom in a way that makes the game play experience less interesting to me.

Of course, the dialog has been slightly changed since Early Access, but its essence remains the same. The one with the power can be anyone. Both evil and kind. Thus, AA doesn't have to be a stereotypical villain who wants to destroy worlds. And if he has always been a villain, then the spawn branch seems to be something alien, something that contradicts his desires and aspirations. And Astarion does not talk about fear anywhere, he is not afraid of his power, power is for him a tool for realizing his ambitions and desires, gaining freedom in all senses. The freedom to dispose of himself, first of all, the way he wants it, without anyone's moralizing, the freedom to be himself. AA finds his feelings and experiences, those feelings and emotions that he already had when he was mortal, he just remembered them. At the same time, the spawn remains under control, and the player himself limits and controls it, directs it along the "right" path. Yes, S!Astarion says you saved me from myself. But from what self? From his real self, from who he had been all his mortal life. Is this a "salvation" given that Astarion no longer has a choice and the opportunity to survive alone and fully realize and protect himself? I personally doubt it.

The theme of the game is pretty explicitly the choice between power and fellowship.
Astarion is motivated by fear, he was probably a coward before being enslaved, but that experience didn’t help his state of mind.
As far as him being evil on the ascension route we get some talk about plunging the world into perpetual darkness and turning the world into a bloody baccanal, so I’m going to day he’s evil.
I also think is assurances the PC will always be first in his heart is not meant to be taken seriously, by the player or tav. This is what comes to my mind when Tav looks fearful, maybe this is the time…how terrifying.
I think the only missing piece to this power dynamic is more acknowledgment on the pc’s part about ceding their self to Astarion.

I don’t know why this thread is blowing up, or why the forum finally decided to let me back on, but here I am.

You know I replayed the entire final boss because I saw somewhere there was AAstarion ending. Its strange for the player , who is technically a thrall to be taking the lead there

What he describes is a tyrant, once others are bend to his will, he might give them the room with the nice bath tub or he might not. There is a lot of resentment in those lines, in a world where the powerful can do what the want, he'd rather be powerful. These early statements are very much formed by his life under Cazador.

His view becomes more nuanced during the course of the game, he can develop a bad conscience over his behaviour in regards to the player character and later to the spawn in the dungeons. For act 1 and A!Astarion power means being free from consequence, because nobody is equal to you, for S!Astarion freedom means choosing your actions but also being responsible for them and respecting the needs of others.

The Spawn Underdark ending is a nice example of this. It's a voluntary community that the other spawn flock to and he tries to create a good unlife with them, it is also something he wants to do. - Though there is the implication that while all goes well at the moment, he might have to put a bloody foot down should things go ever out of hand, it's a far cry from bending others to his will though. I wish the gave the UD ending in the romance more nuance, but especially in Astarion's Origin remaining a spawn and going to the UD is my preferred ending.

He doesn't care about being kind. I hate to mention semantic arguments, but he talks about being nice, which is far more shallow. What happens when being nice won't get him what he wants? Why would he not take what he wants through cruelty and violence? Yes he's not a stereotypical villain who wants to destroy the world, but that dialogue demonstrates that to him the problem with what Cazador made him to be is that he's not powerful enough to make people do what he wants. I remind you again of the fact that he is openly sadistic and approves of abusing power and hurting people when he can get away with it, pretty much just because he can. Why would that change when he's so powerful he has no fear of consequences? Ascending isn't turning him into the person he was before. Even if we completely ignore the possibility that being involved in an infernal ritual would corrupt him in some way, ascending won't wipe away the centuries of trauma. It's not going to make him forget about the victimization and the mental and emotional scars. His problems are far more than just being under Cazador's control. It's the instincts and beliefs instilled within him by that abuse. Ascending doesn't actually deal with that. It's just enforcing unhealthy coping mechanisms and putting him in a position where he never has to listen to anyone who disagrees with him.

Something I actually believe is that when we meet him, Astarion isn't actually evil in a moral sense. He wasn't physically capable of acting against Cazador's instructions, so he wasn't truly morally culpable. He couldn't make choices. This is the first time in centuries he's free to choose and I do think that even his cruel instincts are forgivable in that sense because he was in a horribly abusive situation until... pretty much a day before we find him, effectively. Trauma isn't an excuse to hurt people, but I for one think that a bit of grace after such an ordeal is warranted. But that means everything we're seeing is essentially still a trauma response. He's not acting logically. He's acting based on instinct and self-preservation. What he needs is time to process and unpack his trauma and what he's become as a result of it. what asencion does is tell him that his trauma response is correct, that those instincts are what he should apply to every day of his life going forward. The acquisition of power, the subjugation of others, the disregard for everything but his own desires.

Does it? That was one of the main reasons I disliked the spawn route. Even after the work of persuading him to forgo the ritual, his moral alignment seemed to stay the same. His wicked approval system stayed the same. His blood thirst, and his belittlement of the feeble as well. So it seemed kind of moot to skip the ritual if he was still going to be evil regardless.

Not debating your claim. I'm genuinely curious what I've missed with him developing a conscience. It might entice me to try again.

I'm wondering why Astarion's "fear and "psychological traumas" are so often invoked, and that he's only driven by fear and the experience of being a spawn in those couple hundred years? Why isn't his mortal personality considered? On the one hand he became a spawn because he was afraid to die, from that point of view he can certainly be called a coward. He was a judge, which is again a power he aspired to as a mortal. And we know that he was a very corrupt judge, which speaks to his moral character. Or rather his immoral qualities. AA gets the coveted power, but why did they change his behavior so much in the new patch? Why? He's not Sarevok who dreamed of a sacrificial war, believing he could prove his worth and become the new Lord of Murder. He's just an elf who dreamed of luxury, power, and the ability to do whatever he wanted. Actually in the epilogue AA does exactly that - drinks wine and says how happy he is and that together with Tav he doesn't need anything else. He directly says: we have the palace, we have power and we have each other, what else do we need? AA doesn't need anything else, all the words about taking over the world is such a fairy tale with no truth underneath. And why is that? Because the epilogue is exactly what was "cut" from the release version and in it AA still works according to its "old" settings. He is in it as the creator intended him to be, not as the new authors want to show him now. So it seems to me that it's not the players who "misunderstood" AA, but the new authors want to impose their personal "correct" vision of AA.

As for the spawn. BG3 is first of all DnD, according to DnD rules spawns have no real emotions, they can't be tormented by conscience or remorse, in Bestiary it is written - vampires and spawns have all emotions distorted and their souls are cursed, so any emotion becomes distorted and twisted under the influence of vampire curse. Throughout the game Astarion tells us what he wants, he tells us how hard it is for him and how he wants to gain control of himself. But Spawn can't gain control, he loses it and the protagonist gains control. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. This is what happens when the protaganist forces Astarion to remain a spawn, condemning him to wander forever in the shadows, to give up the possibility of becoming alive again. We often meet those whose motives and desires do not coincide with ours, but out of respect for Astarion, I personally believe that he has the right to his mistakes and he deserves to have a life with real feelings and emotions that he dreamed of. If he wants power, let him have it. It's his decision and his choice. I respect his choice. And then, you are walking on very thin ice, mentioning his "psychological traumas", how correct is it to force someone who has been forced for 200 years to submit to someone else's will, to force him to submit to someone else's will, forcing him to give up his own desires at the very moment when he may have decided to take his own step for the first time in 200 years?

Speaking for myself, I talk about his trauma more than who he was as a mortal for two reasons; one is that I don't have much concrete info about who he was as a mortal. I don't even know if he was actually a corrupt barrister in canon or if that's just stuff datamined from EA that has no official weight anymore. Two is that literal centuries of trauma are going to distort and in some cases override whoever one was as a mortal. This is one of those cases where the fantasy allows for things that don't refleft real life. He was a spawn longer than he was a mortal, if I have my math right. Also I'd hesitate to call him a coward for being afraid to die bloody and beaten in a street. I think most people in that situation would make an unwise choice, I won't hold that against him. As for what he wants, there's plenty to unpack there as well. He says that he has power. Well based on what he's said before we know what power means to him, the power to subjugate others to his will, the power to do what he wants without facing consequences. The kind of people who want to do what they want without facing consequences and are willing to go to the lengths required to get it are horrible people. Just because he doesn't want to destroy or even rule the world doesn't mean he's not a villain at that point.

You say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. That applies to you too, giving someone who very clearly wants to abuse power a huge amount of it. Frankly, that can barely even be called a good intention. He also repeatedly says that he wants to be able to abuse power. You can't talk about respecting his choice when that choice is to deny the choice of thousands of others in the same boat as him. Essentially because you like Astarion and the sacrifices are a faceless mass. And beyond them, there's the people who will inevitably be hurt by Astarion when he's ascended. This isn't simply a difference of opinion between you and he. It's giving a crown to a wannabe tyrant. He's a complex, nuanced tyrant, but that's not going to mean much to the people who suffer because they have something he wants.

You make a good point about the rightness of pushing him to do what you want rather than what he wants. But the situation is complicated. You talk a lot about shades of gray yet you seem to insist that letting Astarion complete the ritual is just plain right. But there are nuances to the situation beyond just what Astarion wants. There's the scope of potential harm at play if you want to trust the man who's repeatedly talked about how much he wants to have power to abuse, there's the fact that sometimes we want things that are bad for us in the long term, there's the dubiousness of making decisions for someone else, just like you say. If the choice you make is an easy one, you're doing it wrong.

@Natasy
What is fair or just is often the argument of Astarion's reasoning, though in the beginning he only extends it to himself while he later on extends it to others too. In alignment with what @Gray Ghost wrote, in Cazador's dungeon Astarion says that he couldn't help bringing victims to Cazador, but he now has a choice. In regards to matters that involve him personally, he is at war with what he knows to be right and what would be the easy, comfortable way out. In regards to others he often has a harsh sense of justice and doesn't believe in forgiveness - which might also extend to himself, considering how uncomfortable he is with having brought victims to Cazador and when seeing the locked up spawn.

You can see his reactions to the "Punish the Wicked" quest in Act 2 as sadism, but it does make sense as poetic justice. He likes to see both Madeline (who condemned her friends to save her own neck) and the sadistic shadar-kai (who takes pleasure in her pain) punished for their crimes. Same with the goblin who tries to lure the hyena into the shadow curse.

If after stopping the ritual you talk to him about if it was the right thing to let the other spawn go, you find out that he really doesn't want to take care of them (or that he doesn't feel up to the task) but he concedes that maybe he should. And I really liked the nuance, that even in the ending choice of his Origin, the Underdark is framed as a moral obligation. That was a nice touch in the writing.

I don't think his approval system is somehow influenced by the ritual and he always retains his wicked snark, but in his dialogue he becomes (or can become) more comfortable with doing the "right thing" - his opinion on what the group should do isn't purely based on what's clever any longer.

Everyone keeps talking about Astarion's personality as magistrate while conveniently forgetting that he mentions several times that he's almost completely forgotten the person that he was, beyond some vague details. He doesn't remember his eye color or really any details beyond the fact that he was a magistrate. In the spawn graveyard scene he says something along the lines "I've stalked these streets as a ghost while the person I was lay dead and buried". Two hundred years of severe trauma has shaped the Astarion that you meet in game far more than the handful of years that he spent as a mortal. Trauma like that has a profound affect on who you are as a person.

Also, regarding the talk about alignments being set in dnd lore and such, dungeon masters very often change the official rules to suit their games. Larian is the dm for this game; if they say that alignments are changeable, they are.