Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

I think you are severely underestimating the *sheer amount* of spawn fans that come to our spaces to lecture AA fans on the morality of ascension lol (/gen).

It's constant. I think it's okay for someone to address that angle. Given we're all quite literally beat over the head with it ad nauseum.

That's fine if you don't see it that way! I don't think morality is the only reason not to ascend either. But, wow, do most of the people who come after us aggressively do. It's even on this very thread lol. And it's okay for us to mention that and discuss it. To me it's less of an assumption. And more of an addressing of what someone had been told constantly over and over again by a large group of people. And even one of the crunch writers. Imho it's okay to talk about that.


BUT back to the topic.

Larian, if you're goal is to teach *adult audiences* lessons on love as if they were teenagers who have not already experienced hard lives and hurts... I think you're really misinterpreting what your *adult audiences* want.

This is not the move.

I truly do not care about a writers irl morality in games. I care about compelling stories. Lecturing us like we're children with our favorite characters is NOT compelling in the slightest.

Poor quality control here, Larian.

Hopefully they will learn from this mistake.

My opinion is they really dumbed down this romance by adding those kisses (I mean the way they're presented). Before, the romance was exciting, and even tongue-in-cheek funny at times. To me, it was delightful how such a supposedly "evil" character really only wants to spoil his beloved and be forever in her arms. Even if he must 'force' her to live the best life possible, in his eyes. Of course I never felt like I would have to be forced, though.

Now by adding those kisses, to me it's like they said, "Look! Look how evil and abusive he is. You would be stupid to stay. Look how much you're suffering. Ready to break up with him now or reload? Good."

And ironic, that such a dumb change on its own can ruin such a dynamic, loveable, and nuanced character. And this dumb little change can cause so much depression and anguish for players, to the point that many cannot even play it anymore.

Why it bothers me that they're taking so long to remove it or change it: The longer it stays, the more damage it does. And the more people see it and get hurt. I lose more faith as time goes on.


I love to see a happy fandom! Why can't we all just cheer each other on like this? 100% You made great points about the dark romances and why we love them.


It really should be seen as a bug, and reported, because it's literally wrong and inconsistent. Great descriptions.


It really breaks my heart that they did this and allowed players to be hurt like this. And they have let it stay this way for so long. After 7 months of the game already being out, the narrative should not have been changed.

Again to reiterate and staying on topic: Those kisses (esp. MC facial expressions) re-wrote history; they changed an already established concept which was the original vision for the romance; they're doing real damage the longer they remain. They're inconsistent to the story and character. They remove player agency in this romance. They should be changed or removed ASAP in a way that addresses those issues.

Totally agree. A compelling story is a living, realistic story that you want to believe in. When a story is used as a means to convey some “moral”, and even more so, to “teach a lesson” to an adult audience, the art ends there, the story becomes unconvincing, begins to wither and may even, in the end, die... Which is what happened to our story in patch 6.


Yes, that's for sure. Astarion is a wonderfully dynamic, loveable and nuanced character. And this fake insertion is something alien, in no way corresponding to our relationship with Astarion, destroys the whole story and the whole romance of the game. It is impossible to play the game with the presence of these kisses, the game damages the psyche of the player. And the longer they remain, the more people will face this in their game, suffer and experience triggers.

Alright, it is time to get this back on track. Please stick to the topic. RE: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency With Astarion.

Dear Larian,

1. We do not have an issue with Astarion himself. We take issue that the kisses disrupt the role play of our Tav within the romance of AA. Please bring them back to a sensual type of romance with him. The problem as of right now, is with Tav's facial expressions. You poorly tried for the BDSM effect but tried to add pain/fear/sad emotions into the kiss and that is a disservice to not only BDSM but us as players and customers of yours. Please fix this. Personally, I would have gone more to the Gomez and Morticia route instead of failing a community that I do not believe you were trying to show in a bad light. No one has done this community justice and so, please do not try. It has failed in movies, in other games, and so many other instances in art. I know some find them "sexy" but for others, you just ended up hurting people in real life (such as customers who have been in SA/DV situations), causing them to quit playing and/or stop playing since Feb 16th (including myself). Please fix this.

2. We would like to return to enjoying the romance of it all with AA, as we were mostly happy prior to your patch 6 drop of the kisses. Also, adding a hug would go a LONG way. Even an Evil Vampire Ascendant Elf can love his consort just as much as anyone else. He wants trust from one person in the world of Toril. Supposedly my Tav and it would be nothing without her or him. So let's think along those lines.

3. Please, as we have been asking for a LONG time, please give us a positive option for Tav to state after the Ascension. Please see that thread for a lot of different suggestions, but this is also crucial in fixing the romance. Example: I wanted to help you claim all you desired as well as your revenge. I love you Astarion. Or something along those lines which could then lead to his lines of turning Tav into his consort.

4. It would also go a long way to state that you are hearing us, those of us who ACTUALLY play this romance route instead of listening to those who do not. It would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you for your time and hopefully incoming fixes. We believe in you, Larian. We voted for the game of the year. We are asking for these fixes in order to return to the game we love. The D&D role playing game that we were enjoying and LOVED up until Patch 6. Please fix these things, so we may come back to the game and continue playing it. We do not want harassment or hate from others, do not want judgment from others for choosing a path in a video game, as what has happened across the internet, unfortunately. Even the modders who have tried to fix some of the issues have been harassed. I know you probably don't like to hear that, but it is true. Please fix this as soon as you can. We believe that you can. I also know that you have received a lot of feedback via email from people who play this route and hope that you are reading those emails to see that we truly want to return to the game and be able to enjoy the game.

All very well said.
I agree on every point. The harassment by players who don't like AA is out of hand. The decision to add non-con to teach us a lesson has *hurt* real players. Both by triggering us with your product, and by drawing backlash onto AA players by spawn fans, who seem to be enjoying us "getting what we deserve" and are already asking Larian on other forums for more violence against the players to prove a point.

Why is Larian stoking the flames like this? Larian writers don't have to like what everyone likes. But to punish only one specific portion of your fan base has encouraged some really intense harassment. And Larian is neither acknowledging it, nor trying to fix the problem.

Why did you rush to fix Karlach and Minthara? Then have crickets with this? Are women/queer players really so invaluable to the company?

Do *something* Larian. Say something. Take accountability. Being back RP for AA players.

Just wanted to say that the Happy facial expression for Ascended Astarion kisses has over 2700 unique downloads now, and counting. I don't imagine PS5 players jumping in on it so we can expect even more than that are unhappy with the bad face expressions.
I have been playing with the mods for a couple of days now and the new expressions makes such a huge difference, it feels more like the Patch 5 romance. Although happy expressions for the bite kiss is still not available. I really hope Larian sees this and include a fix in Patch 7 if they haven't already. People want this romance, I want this romance. I would be really happy to see an official fix to the kisses. For the sake of all AA romance fans.

Totally agree. If there is romance in the game, then all players who choose certain romantic paths should be on the same terms. All the other companions have great kisses - we have traumatizing content. Minthara is also an evil character, and she has great kisses. Why can't the same be done for Astarion? If you can hug one of your companions - then it means it should be possible to hug everyone. First of all - the one with whom we are in a romantic relationship.When in the epilogue you can hug those who traveled with you (Shadowheart can be hugged an unlimited number of times, there are even different lines for hugs), and the most important person for you - your beloved person - you can neither hug, nor kiss, nor even confess your love to him - it's unfair. There shouldn't be such inequality between players. You can't try to force a player to choose the “right” path for their favorite companion from the point of view of game morality by “blocking” the passage of another path, the one we ourselves (together with Astarion) choose, you can't take our characters under the “master control” of the author of scenes and make them portray “fear, resentment and pain”. This teaches nothing but distrust for the games the company produces. Please fix this!


Of course, players want to see happiness on their character's face during romantic moments. Recently another awesome mod was released that completely changes kissing (as many as 8 kisses, including the return of the patch 5 kiss, many kisses are very touching and passionate + added the possibility of hugging as a romantic interaction).

But unfortunately, mods can't solve the problem completely because, firstly, mods are not yet available on platforms other than PC and many players still can't play the game because of this. Secondly, what is in the original game now is traumatizing trigger content and new players unfamiliar with the situation will fall into these scenes. The longer this content is kept in the game, the more people will be hurt as a result. Third, it is not a good idea to leave the game in a state where content can only be used after installing the necessary mod. “Romance with Astarion requires pre-installation of the kissing mod” - you can, of course, put such a warning next to the warning about the presence of traumatizing content in the original game, in general, after that there will be no claims to the developers (if the mods will be available on all platforms) - the warning is there, everything is clear, further requires preliminary preparation for gameplay in the form of installation of the required mod. But... This is not the best option for a AAA-class game.

People I know either haven't updated at all. Or downloaded pirated versions of any pc patch. Anything from 1 to 5, with any hotfix for 7 months with a happy kiss for AA.
One person bought the game in patch 5 and regrets about it quite. From a consenting character-Consort who is happy to kiss their Lord, turned into a victim with three lines for the play including let's break up.

I've tested this mod, it worked well (more or less). 8 kisses for body type 1 (female), 4 kisses for body type 2 (male) and 1 hug from Gale for both. The AA kisses remain. There exists also a version of this new mod, which includes the "happy facial expressions"-mod for AA kisses: here

Here is the difference between patch 6 and the mod. If someone tells me, it's not day and night, I assume, that someone is not capable of reading emotions.







I don't know who thought, this sad and painful facial expression is appropiate in a kiss for a patch?
In the meanwhile, I've talked with someone, who was sexual assaulted 11 years ago, who was thrown into something, god, it's impossible to describe, after seeing their own character like this in the "valentine's kiss": sad, disgusted, painful.
She left the game, and she will not come back. Picture 2, when Tav Astarion goes down on his knees (and kneeling wasn't her problem), I can understand what she told me, what was written for her in this face: sadness, rejection, feeling guilty, feeling blamed. "I am a piece of shit, I feel disgusted of myself." That's what she thought by seeing Tav's faces. Being sexual assaulted was *her* fault. (she felt dirty and disgusted for a long time in her past). The game was victim-blaming her. *Thank you*, Larian. These faces in a kiss make players and victims into victims, in and outside the game, instead of enjoyment - fair game for victim blaming. And as others mentioned before, even modders are attacked and insulted now for making a happy facial expression mod etc. And yes, it would have been Larian's job:

You cannot heal those wounds anymore, those of, who got harmed by you, fell back into their trauma and left the game. But still thousands of people are waiting and hoping, that you change Tav's facial expressions. Just, give the player the agency back, let the player's character, who asks for a kiss, consent. Consenting faces, that's not much to ask, and prevents further harm to people. It should be well coordinated so that it fits, but you've already changed other facial expressions in hotfixes before, and it's already several months since the patch dropped.



To add: Your cinematic cutscenes are stunning, breath-taking, realistic! But you have to be even more careful about the facial expressions you put on the character.


+1

+1

On Astarion, it looks particularly excruciating.


«But if you in your games present a character with a good enough romance arc, perhaps it will impact someone's most personal heart».

Impacted. So impacted that there are no words. Or there are, but the kind that would make someone who likes it “offended” and run to complain.

«Players are FORCED to actively PUT THEMSELVES in the shoes of someone in a new relationship. That can make them recontextualize their own life. I mean, that's what art is meant to do anyway. Art is meant to make you rethink your position in life, and that's the mirror to nature principle. But because of the self-insert nature of video games being so strong, players can feel this on a fundamental, instinctive, and interior level that you wouldn't necessarily if you are watching a story playing out externally».

Victims of violence are forced to “rethink their position in life”. Does this mean that the life position was wrong? Or is it for fans, like, you are good, this will never happen to you, you will be told how to love, how to live, how to breathe, look what happens to those who do not listen, they are “their own fault”. Larian, you really should say something about this. I don't believe that all the developers in the studio agree that people should “feel it on a fundamental, instinctive and interior level”.

«So, part two, in games, people are FORCIBLY confronted with questions about what they want out of a relationship more when they're playing an interactive relationship than if they were passively watching a scripted romance film or scripted romance.»

Isn't there too much “forcing” in this “romantic concept”? And our Astarion is also someone who has to be “forced”, “fixed”, can't be loved, can't be Ascended, can't be given what he wants. Or else he will “ behave badly”, according to someone's extremely limited opinion. Opinion ignored or challenged, like much of any other nonsense on the internet. Patch 6's kisses should have put a point in the “novel” so that it's no longer ignored. Because the author sees it that way. And people are supposed to be victims. Illustrative victims for the prosecution.

Astarion in the game is also a victim who, according to the game “concept”, is bound to become an “abuser” if not left “Just an expandable frail spawn who will burn to a crisp soon enough”. I know that many people who were victims of violence saw themselves in Astarion and wanted to truly heal him, to give him everything, to give him strength, confidence, power. So that he would no longer be vulnerable. And became their protector. And became victims themselves in the game and beyond.


Many thanks to the modders who do such important work in opposing violence against people in the game. And what does a major game company think about the rights of women and homosexual men in their game? Or are only players who are in the “fanfiction demographic” important, and only the one that shares the “ideas and concept”? You could have prevented further harm to people by at least temporarily bringing back the kiss 5 patch, instead of “keeping a good face when playing badly” (that expression sounds a bit ambiguous in this case, I realize). Honestly admitting mistakes and correcting them is the behavior of a decent human being. Facial expressions are separate from motion capture, the modder handled it, and a major game company that has released more than one hotfix since people started getting hurt in their game can't or won't? Why? The seemingly simple and inexpensive solution is to bring back the patch 5 kiss as the “gentle” line and make consenting faces for the “let it hurt” line (better yet, give the player a choice before each kiss). Mocap scenes - yes, it's not a quick process, but removing traumatizing content from the game can be done this way without additional filming.

Great points.

+1

Larian you advertised yourself as making content for the 1%. I bought your game to explore what that meant. Hoping it would include content inclusive toward women. I wouldn't have bought the game if I knew it would be moral lecturing toward women instead.

Please address the issue.

You know it is an issue.

Please, do something.

The modders are working together to give us even more options for the kisses! There is now a new version of the kneeling kiss with smug expressions. I have just tried it and I think I like the happy one more, Tav looks almost too defiant in the smug kiss. I realize now how difficult it is to hit the perfect expression for this. Seeing how difficult it is I think Larian did not intend for this to look like abuse. I hope the silence is that they are working on it and making sure it's good for the Patch 7 release.
For it to be good Astarion needs to have dominance and Tav needs to show consent without looking like they are challenging him during the kisses.

Well, everyone has their own taste. In my opinion and taste, laughing and smug versions both don't work well at this point, because grabbing the throat is an intense and (for the audience) thrilling moment, I don't like to see Tav smiling at this very moment (until the kiss starts), I'd prefer a more neutral and concerned facial expression with a little fear (without sadness), not knowing what will happen, more like in the romance scene, when Tav is kneeling and Astarion is saying "own your body", or after Astarion pushed Tav down and Tav is looking up to him or when Astarion is grabbing him at the throat after "let it hurt". Also here, Tav is not smiling at Astarion, it wouldn't make sense, because grabbing the throat is - honestly - nothing where someone would smile (in my opinion), it's a power play, there can be passion, arousal, expectation, danger, Tav being on the mercy of their partner in that play. So it doesn't make sense for me, if Tav would smile at the throat grabbing moment. But screaming or looking terrified like in the original version is definitely too much, over the top, it should be less than that. At least, they are knowing each other and this scream or looking terrified looks odd for replay.
Personally, this moment (the screaming or let's say, being in fear) wouldn't be that of a problem, it just shows fear at the grabbing moment, but not if Tav would consent or like to kiss. The kiss itself is consenting (Tav is enjoying here, in the Karlach or bite kiss he is not btw.), but before and after Tav shows sadness, contempt smiles, feeling guilty. While Tav is going on their knees, they even look like little children or teenagers, who got preached by their parents ("Boy, what have you done?"). That some facial expressions can be difficult (when Astarions is grabbing the throat) to choose I could understand, but whatever their intention was with - well - sadness and contempt/fake smiles, also in the other kisses. Maybe sadness, contempt and disgust are feelings of someone else, but surely not of the characters or the players.

Beside of that, it's great, that modders are making and trying different versions. They are doing a good job. I can imagine, how difficult it is.

I do agree with you. For me the throat grab was never a problem (although I still have the opinion that it could be modified a little bit to be less triggering). I think the facial expressions you mention from the turning scene would absolutely be better. But between the two (laughing or smug), I do not want Tav to be too agressive in the kneeling scene, because of the points you made.
But it would be another matter if we could have Tav dominating Astarion a little bit in another kiss. I would have loved to see that personally, but I know I'm probably not in the majority of that.

Edit: Thinking about it there is something that is called a nervous smile. So I think it is not completely unbelievable to have Tav smile during the grab.


That is very true. Playing with the mods made me forget honestly.

For me personally, I'd also prefer more neutral/apprehension during the first part of the kisses (during the grabbing, kneeling, etc), and then a shift to happiness later. It's pretty crazy that Tav doesn't look happy AT ALL in any of the three.

But I think the debate on which expressions are the best and win speak to a larger issue with the kisses. It's hard for me to put it into words, but I honestly feel like they're just too...specific maybe? There's just a lot going on in them, more than what I've seen from other companions. I think they backed themselves into a corner rather than taking the time to really think about, if someone is with ascended Astarion, and they want to kiss him repeatedly, what would that look like? I think it would have been entirely possible to come up with a better kiss overall that shows dominance on Astarion's part without doing something that could freak Tav out. It could even be just about his posture and expression. Instead it seemed like they were more focused on putting something together that could be slapped onto Twitter for views. But I doubt we'll get entirely new kiss animations, so this is really just a rant on my part.

Well, it's wild in part - Larian wanted to make a scared character on February 14, in a fanservice patch, in a kiss that the player clicks on, to show how bad you did by doing the ascension, and to click on probably "break up", a 3 line game.
12 lines, that the majority, for the consonant dynamics of the romance: exist.
Waiting for patch 9, I think they'll equalize them, or delete them like they did with the happy kiss AA.
If Larian wanted angst with AA so much why not do it was in patch 4. There was a new kiss with Astarion then too. And Tav\Du wasn't trembling in fear\sad of AA.

Either way, Larian was doing okay with his facial expressions on the night of turning.
The one kisses AA is original Astarion kisses pre-ritual, everything is the same. Karlach also had a normal face.
So changing faces even there...
The demographics of fanfic are deciding.
I have reason to believe so, but I hope most of the options for the game will return.

To put it even further.
I agree that "on your knees" kisses the face should be made calm and tense with desire. A slight smile. When there's a gasp to intensify that tension of desire, maybe Tav\DU should close their eyes and move their head a little from the rush of pleasure.
Also to make this scene more sensual, Astarion could have helped them stand up by extending his hand.

So is his body language, and the words after kiss from Astarion are completely out of place.
He's all playful, "Gods you're beautiful."
It could work if there was some sort of connection, like, yes, help stand up and pull them sharply to him, kissing them even more passionately. Then kind of playfully step back like an artist and look at Tav\DU who's burning with desire.

Now it's some kind of knee-pantomime, a parody of what happened last night, which is clearly done incredibly tenderly, with music from an elven song. (By another team)

But...
Man, it can't work at all because Tav\Du are spawn already, they don't need air.
And the kneeling kiss works even up to the scene where it's played out. Astarion ascend and that's it.
Plot holes even in kissing.

I never understood why the main character would look so hysterical scared in the kisses now... because they were not even looking that extreme during the conversion night, when he pushed them down and grabbed their throat if they asked him to. The Main character looked pretty neutral, even expectant, or curious, while lying underneath him as he said "You have given me everything. Thank you."


Something strange happened here. I don't know what exactly... but it's like someone else came in. Like a different director replaced the original one in a movie. The energy is all different.


I agree with your points and love your suggestions on how to improve the kiss scenes! Definitely I'd like him to help Tav stand up after the kneeling kiss and I want it to feel more like passionate expectation from Tav's side.

I agree with those who said that it looks like Larian put a lot of effort into those scenes and feel like they backed themselves into a corner somewhat. They used the kneeling kiss scene for some promotional purposes already... and my guess is that they don't want to remove it. They should still make some tweaks to it so that it looks more like passion and desire from both the Tav and Astarion, both. I think the actual kissing itself was too short sometimes too. They put too much focus on other things, like Astarion shaking his head and laughing at Tav, or Tav looking upset.

I think it might be the specific expressions you are thinking of. Now that we can see the other kisses through the Nightingale mod and compare, AA kisses is very different and it's only in them that Tav roleplay gets so hijacked. Like Zayir reminded me: the contemnt, sadness, etc. at the end of the animations, it's not something you see in any of the other ones. It's very specific. And wierd.

I agree with the repeatablility issue, but I just want something that looks like a romance. I'm very open to almost anything else than what we got.

Yes, I agree. And also very obvious at the beginning, in every kiss of AA. Just look at the other kisses (gale, Wyll), before the kiss starts, in every other kiss Tav is looking very happy, and in happily expectation to kiss their partner. You can see and feel it (at least, if we can read emotions), that Tav wants and likes to kiss.
And after seeing the kisses of the other companions, take a look back at the original AA kisses: Tav's facial expression shows a contempt/fake smile or rather a concerned, sad face, looking like, he doesn't like to kiss, he is not happy, rather concerned and expecting something bad happening soon: "What is happening to me, I don't like it", in all 3 kisses. Even the happy facial expression mod has not changed this "concerned, contempt" face at the beginning - only right after this the mod changes the face into happiness. (I don't know why, I hope the modders recognize this issue (concern, sad and contempt look) and change them, too). It is more than clear, that Tav does not want to kiss Astarion, that Tav is concerned, sad and expecting something bad happening (in all kisses, but especially in the bite kiss). Meh, Larian, meh! Body language / microexpressions don't lie. I'm sorry, as much as I hope it was just an accident, but it's all intentional, for whatever reason. Almost all facial expressions of Tav are sad, contempt or painful. There is no happiness, nothing. The only one, for me, is when he kisses Astarion in the kneeling kiss, that's fine. And of course, he smiles, when he wants to kiss Astarion right before the shove. Oh yeah, Larian. Tav hates to kiss Astarion in all kisses. But Tav wants to kiss him before the shove, just for showing, "haha no. You are not allowed to show consenting, Tav/player!" Pretty disgusting

I have expressed this somewhere before, but I do think Larian missed an opportunity when they designed these kisses. One thing AA tells Tav is that he can’t wait to taste his blood on their lips. Which is why, to me, the bite kiss feels backward. It should be Tav biting him, and AA going wild over it.