Larian Studios Forums Divinity II The Dragon Knight Saga / Flames of Vengeance (English) Divinity II - The Dragon Knight Saga No Elves? Dwarves? And other questions.

What? That makes no sense!

They were summoning their bloody MASTER. Chaos and the fate of everything they were doing depended on this bloody summon... And you're telling me they didn't send everyone to protect their only chance of victory? Their only chance of success?

Well, Black Ring is an organisation of idiots then! Idiots? Nah! Retarded foolish idiots with no brains! Seriously! They probably come from the city which can't recognize Superman!




As I've proven before, Black Ring is too stupid to be able to do such a thing.




Yeah. Instead of bothering to make an explanation that makes sense, Larian just went "Whatever, we don't give a crap. Too much work to make Elves and Dwarves, so we'll put a stupid unconvincing story instead."



And my D2 DKS still didn't come I think it'll be here before Wednesday though.

I hope they will fix this mess in div 3.

Seriously, if somebody from larian is reading this, call up a Meeting and decide what really happened to other races, okey?

And let it be logical explanation (by logical i mean believable)

I doubt they will come with something interesting, unless they can explain why, how and other questions in my post. Because, currently it makes ab-SO-lutely no sense and contradicts everything we learnt in DD1.

I will be very surprised if they make an interesting, convincing explanation. Probably they will ignore it and in DD3 there will be Dwarves and Elves again, appearing in the same way they dissapeared : without sense or convincing explanation.

"I thought you were extinct Elves?"
"We got better."

Official quote from Divinty 3: Ego Elfonis

I believe that they can come up with something convincing if they really try. They are intelligent group.

Kein
Yea lol. They wiped out few races, forced Dragons to hide, killed the Divine One, bring the world to chaos, but!

I'd think dragons leaving (Patriarch wasn't hiding) had more to do with humans turning on them than anything the Black Ring did.

One Dragon Knight pnwd them all!
COMMON SENSE. There is a lot of it.

You mean like pretty much every other plotline of RPG games, fantasy books, many movies, etc, etc?



GabeN;
They were summoning their bloody MASTER. Chaos and the fate of everything they were doing depended on this bloody summon... And you're telling me they didn't send everyone to protect their only chance of victory? Their only chance of success?

The Divine One took out the protection for the summoning at the end of Divine Divinity, but not in time to stop the summoning. After that the Black Ring was content to leave the child in his care, and sent a witch, Ygerna, to start awakening his powers when he was old enough.

After Damian walked in at the end of Ygerna's execution (having helped with her Black Ring necromancer father's experiments on children) he ran away, found the Black Ring and came back at the head of an army. Damian ordered everyone to leave the Divine One to him, and followed the Divine a short distance away from the main battle to the rift temple.


As I've proven before, Black Ring is too stupid to be able to do such a thing.

Evil organizations do all kinds of smart things between games (and movies, etc). It is only during the game that they wait for you to reach a certain point before attacking, send out weak minions to deal with you and then gradually send out increasingly stronger opponents, etc.


I doubt they will come with something interesting, unless they can explain why, how and other questions in my post.

As Pall said, that wouldn't be hard to do, if they have not done so already.

You think too much and miss the point - there is no facts we can rely on.
You can play with your imagination as much as you can.


Ookay.
Dragon Age. To kill hordes of darkspawn we gather the army. The Army even.
And when I see an epic battle where not just one Warden, but tons of his allies fighting darkspawn - I f*cking believe in that epicness.
Not laughing.

You don't get the point. I don't care about witches. I understand why they haven't "helped" Damian AFTER Divine One hasn't killed him, but I don't care about this. This ISN'T the thing that makes no sense.

EVERYTHING depended on the summon - WHY hasn't Black Ring sent EVERYONE to protect summoning? Not only Josephina, Iona, etc., but everyone? They had more members, yes?

So, why the whole Black Ring wasn't there? Why weren't they protecting their only chance of victory, change they fought for for years? What's better than meeting their master after so many years? They could lose status, power and potential reward by NOT being there when he's back. Even worse, Divine One could just kill the baby! Possibilities are endless.

Besides, they even KNEW Divine One will come. Why wouldn't they send everyone they had to protect their only chance of victory?

Answer nr.1 - because they are imbeciles.
Answer nr.2 - because Larian though it was shmart for great dark wizards to not protect their only chance of victory
Answer nr.3 - both

Your talk about Ygerna and Damian just... doesn't matter. It has no point. It doesn't connect with my questions.



How does this talk connect to Dwarves gloating that nothing can reach them in their city, and Elves having multiple cities and them both being "beaten" by the Black Ring?

The problem is that they do smart things between games, and nothing smart in games.

Please, please, ewerybody calm down.

There are many plotholes in game, yes, but larian will learn on their mistakes and surely come up with something.

If ,after war, there are still great, unexplored forests, Elvenkind probably is hidding there. blaming humans for all evil.

Dvarves could hidden entrance to their halls with illusion magic or using some sort of trick like dwarwes in Arcanum.

Since lizardsmen are giant lizards, humanity hatren of dragonkind could fall on them to, and if in rivellor are still great, hard to explore(for humans) swamps ,then lizards can simply live there ,hiden, waiting for better times.

And many, many more simple explanations.

I really doubt that black ring would manage to exterminate others, elder than humanity, and more powerful races like that(snapping fingers).

Kein;
You think too much and miss the point - there is no facts we can rely on.
You can play with your imagination as much as you can.

Your premise, in part, was that it didn't make sense that the Black Ring could be strong enough to force the dragons into hiding and yet weak enough a dragon knight could do so much damage. I proposed a much more logical assumption than yours.

Assuming the dragons left because of the Black Ring is just as much playing with your imagination as thinking it was a reaction to the formation of the slayers.


Dragon Age. To kill hordes of darkspawn we gather the army. The Army even.

So your character/party isn't instrumental is saving the world? You don't start off weak, get strong and win the day?
If your party dies the game keeps going, the army gets formed anyway and the darkspawn army is defeated? If you sit around doing nothing, someone else solves the quests and gets everyone ready?

Being part of an army is certainly a more plausible scenario, but if your choices and actions are not instrumental in the outcome of the game, you might as well be watching a movie. If your actions are what determine the outcome of the game, there isn't really a huge difference between it being you alone or you with an army.



GabeN;
EVERYTHING depended on the summon - WHY hasn't Black Ring sent EVERYONE to protect summoning? Not only Josephina, Iona, etc., but everyone? They had more members, yes?

Maybe they thought the defenses they had in place were more than enough. Maybe they were fighting on multiple fronts, and did not want to abandon other areas or projects. Maybe they didn't care if a bunch of imps and a few Black Ring members got wiped out as long as they delayed long enough for the ritual to be completed. Maybe they thought the Divine One was a diversion, and if they sent in reinforcements they would leave themselves vulnerable to the real attack.


Even worse, Divine One could just kill the baby! Possibilities are endless.

There are endless possibilities Larian could have implemented to make sure the game was impossible to win. The Black Ring attacked you once in the starting cutscene, why not send the whole army to wipe out Aleroth when you are still on level 1?

Larian ended D2:ED with your character encountering a minor setback. Apparently some people don't like games like that, and before FoV was announced many people complained loudly about the ending; imagine the reaction if your character always fails, gets killed and the bad guys win.


Why wouldn't they send everyone they had to protect their only chance of victory?

Because it is a game.

Also, a minor point, but it wasn't their only chance; they summoned an aspect of their master before and were defeated (DD background story), so they would try again if they failed that time.


How does this talk connect to Dwarves gloating that nothing can reach them in their city, and Elves having multiple cities and them both being "beaten" by the Black Ring?

Are you saying that the dwarves believing their city to be invulnerable makes it so? Historically such beliefs have generally proven to be incorrect.
The Black Ring couldn't possibly drop poison gas over a forest or elven city like they did to Broken Valley?

You may not like the fact that there are no dwarves or elves in the game, but it is hardly a stretch to think it possible the Black Ring could have wiped them out, at least in the regions we can visit in the game. If the war threatened their homelands, or there were serious conflicts with the humans, many of the elves and dwarves could have simply withdrew from human areas, and the books in the game are referring to the ones who decided to stay behind or who couldn't get out in time.



Pall;
Please, please, ewerybody calm down.

Everyone is calm, AFAIK. The discussion couldn't even be classified as an argument.


There are many plotholes in game, yes,

The issue is with design choices people don't like. It is hardly a plot hole that an organization can start a war and be quite effective, and yet 50 years later be vulnerable to an attack in a specific area out of their control. Also of great importance is the fact that Damian cares more about something else than he does about a few Black Ring members in Broken Valley and the fjords. For all we know he filled the place up with incompetent people he wanted to get rid of when he heard the main character was coming.

Lol people, have you ever heard of the saying "too many chiefs, not enough injuns"? That's what this Forum is turning into. Everybody is an expert story teller and a game designer, but nobody knows how to play!

If they'd hurry up and release the Xbox version of DKS in North America I'd happily suspend my part in all hypothetical game design discussion.

Raze:

I was not talking only about war and black ring, but newer mind that.



Oh, but it will be, it will be...

If all goes well.






If not, we just have to avoid the 'Being Hit On The Head' lessons room...

Do you have a proof that I'm wrong or not? That's EXACTLY the point. Where is the proof we an rely on.
"Tits^W Post it or GTFO".


You do. That's how RPG is done mostly...


Oh c'mon.
This is way too silly and way fat and even you must understand. I believe.

The game is made for player. He must be the center of everything, the action/reaction of env. must depend on his actions (but that does not mean the RPG must be all about gameplay). This is like.. obvious? Why do you question it? To change the direction of the convo and avoid the point I stated?
C'mon, stop doing it, your tactics pretty primitive to use on me and it never gonna work. I have a troll experiecne as well :P

So, back to the point. In D2 we alone kill the whole army and nothing can stop you. In DAO, we (TEAM!) gather the and no on can stop you.
Rsolution: I believe in DAO because it more realistic. Games don't need top reflect real life, but being more realistic and plot-orientired is always good (as far as it in balance with gameplay). That's why D2 plot and realism is sooo cheap.


That's "stupid evil Sauron" syndrome. The bad guy SITS THE WHOLE STORY IN HIS TOWER DOING NOTHING and start to act only @ the end. And always loses coz IT'S TOO LATE :P

Hmmm ... intresting topic
Who have the greatest wish to be "the-one-who-is-right" ?

Okay, Divinity II has no Elves or Dwarves ... and we can make "suggestions" (in the equivalent forum/thread) for Larian ...

Suggestions?
Or just have fun doing an endless conversation here?
LOL

Most story-lines that pass around here feature a list of plot-holes and things we know we should explain. I believe plot holes are present in all games, books and movies and that it's quite easy to fire away at a plot and expose these holes just by keeping on asking why. We try to come up with answers for all of the ones we think of ourselves, but sometimes we miss out on some obvious things. Or, and that's often the case, we had an explanation for something, but then during production it gets cut away so we can still make our deadlines. For instance, in the original story-line of ED the elves and dwarves were very much present, that is, before the entire area where they were living was cut. But then of course you get the problem that there still might be references to it, and that causes a new problem, which isn't always addressed.

What I'm trying to say is - yes, we are aware of certain problems in the storyline, and yes, we think of how we can fix those.

Yeah, Divine One was a diversion... The one sent by gods themselves, the one they saw getting "killed" at the end of the ritual.

Real attack? And who could do it? Everything they did was in secret, except the Council of Seven (which died) nobody knew about it.

Shrugging off Divine One in such circumstances hardly is intelligent.




Eh? You're mistaken. Black Ring attacked that ghost-female thingy, which then marked The Marked One (and two other guys).

They don't have radars, they couldn't know that one of "heroes" was in Aleroth. That guy on a Dragon also didn't knew it, it was a coincidence he met the Marked One.



Stop spoilering! It's a thread, where I said that I didn't even play D2 yet.



Yeah, great thinking bad guys, wasting half of your forces to fail at summoning their master (sword was the only remaining part of Chaos Lord AFAIK), instead of sending everyone and either winning or losing.




STOP SPOILING!

But you may have a point with the Dwarves. Though, Elves had multiple cities, I believe.





No, please, don't try to make Larian use "team" in their game again... Or we will have another thing like Beyond Divinity.




Just as I thought! Deadline, the enemy of all gamers... I still remember that unreachable area in Divine Divinity, east from that lake in elven forest... With pyramids, you could still get there though.

But, you cut off these areas... Why didn't you re-add them in Dragon Knight Saga, maybe at cost of some areas added in flames of vengeance? I guess finishing Dwarves and Elves was harder, though.

Can we expect other races to be added in Divinity 3, or second expansion if you'll make one?

Second expansion could be useful in tying up loose ends, but i guess we need to wait for div 3 to see with what larian come up. (I trust you larian, don't disappoint me).

I trust them too, but I have to complain about lack of these races to have better odds of getting them back in D3. Besides, I wouldn't be complaining if the goddamn D2 DKS already was in my house, but no, the courier is a slowpoke.

And if the second expansion for D2 will be again like DKS (I mean, you can't get the addon alone - you have to buy it with the first part. Well, for me it's good, I haven't bought Ego Draconis and I gain from not having to buy Ego Draconis to have everything)

How about some kind of Elven Dragon Knight for D3? :3 And, of course, a possibility to rape Elves.

Elveees.

Kein
Do you have a proof that I'm wrong or not? That's EXACTLY the point.

Do you have proof you are right?
I claimed my speculation made more sense to me than your speculation. That was it.


The game is made for player. He must be the center of everything, the action/reaction of env. must depend on his actions (but that does not mean the RPG must be all about gameplay). This is like.. obvious?

That was my point. The player is always going to win out against the opponent (if they finish the game) regardless of whether there is a single character or an army, or the enemy is an evil cult or invading aliens, etc.


Why do you question it? To change the direction of the convo and avoid the point I stated?

You said it didn't make sense that a single dragon knight could defeat a section of the Black Ring, when they were powerful enough to do a great deal of damage in a war 50 years earlier.
I was trying to point out that that is a common element in pretty much all RPG games, many movies, etc.

The plot line can be more or less plausible, but there is always going to be vulnerabilities the hero(s) can exploit and there are always going to be obvious things the bad guys could have done to improve their security.


So, back to the point. In D2 we alone kill the whole army and nothing can stop you. In DAO, we (TEAM!) gather the and no on can stop you.
Rsolution: I believe in DAO because it more realistic.

DAO is more realistic in that regard. My point was that in principle it is still pretty much the same thing.



GabeN
Real attack? And who could do it?

Zandalor could have gotten off his but and helped you out more than once...


Shrugging off Divine One in such circumstances hardly is intelligent.

If they didn't, you would not have been able to win the game.


Eh? You're mistaken. Black Ring attacked that ghost-female thingy, which then marked The Marked One (and two other guys).

Oops, that was orcs, or something, not the Black Ring attacking the character at the start (it has been awhile since I played DD).


That guy on a Dragon also didn't knew it, it was a coincidence he met the Marked One.

No, he was searching for you. The Black Ring assigned him some search area, and yet there was no followup when he simply disappeared.
BTW, as dumb as the Black Ring may have acted, the other two Marked Ones were worse.


Stop spoilering!

I'm sorry. I didn't think you'd consider it a spoiler just saying everything doesn't go perfectly the entire game. I was writing the post in between doing other stuff, and I just wasn't thinking later when I mentioned the poison.