Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity - Original Sin - General I don't suppose

Either of the heros in original sin will be dragon knights eh?

I'm a big time dragon nut so that was one of the things i loved most about Ego draconis [and by extension the dragon knight saga]

I dont think so, im not too sure about that but i really doubt it.

but Dragon commander will have dragon knights

D:OS will have a non-rotatable isometric camera angle, which would not have been the best choice for characters who could fly. I can't see Larian dropping the dragon knight concept, though (or relegating it just to RTS games), so hopefully there should eventually be another RPG with a dragon knight main character.

Well, Divine Divinity had dragon knights in it without any issues.

But yeah, DOS most likely won't feature anu due to, uh, story aspects?

Divine Divinity had dragon riders, and even then 'dragon' was a rather generous term for horse sized flying lizards who could barely get off the ground.

bwaha +1

Well we already have two games about a Dragon Knight (The Dragon Knight Saga and Dragon Commander). Original Sin will be the first game to feature two human characters and I'd rather not have a Dragon Knight character as the main character for Divinity 3 especially if there's going to be limits again.

Either allow us to fly anywhere we want or just forget about the concept. Besides a complete open world Divinity (bigger and more open than Divinity 2) where you can ride horses and have companions would be a better idea IMO.

I guess it all depends on who Larian are bringing back for Divinity 3. The Divine One, The Dragon Knight or a new character altogether? Likely it will be a new character with new powers. The Divine One has his divine powers, The Dragon Knight has his dragon powers so the third hero will likely have unique powers to and some sort of destiny and fate.

Not being able to go anywhere you like and the ability to attack ground enemies was a flaw with the Dragon combat but this was due to limitations with the Gamebryo game engine. If Larian are making a new engine themselves & if Divinity 3 has a playable dragon knight character these limitations should be overcome.



Exactly. Guess we won`t know for sure until well after DC and D:OS have been released. I'd like to see another dragon knight as a playable character but others prefer the Divine. Hopefully Larian will find a way to please both DK and divine fans.

Drakan was one of my favorite games. The PS2 sequel was a sort of action RPG - if Larian could make a future game similar to that (maybe after Divinity 3) then it would be great. No other developers seem to have copied this concept and made a good game out of it.

Well, the thing is, larian can get away with Original sin, Beyond divinty and divine divnity being a human because they are isometric viewpoints, a genre of RPGs that aren't really favoured, where as a 3rd person game they can't, as someone could argue they could go play Dragon age or something (That has a party system), Being able to be a dragon is one of the main selling points of the game, it would be unwise if Larian were to drop the idea.

i was recommending divinity 2 DKS to a friend the other day, he was not interested until i told him you can be a dragon.

Like it or not, they still were early concept of the dragon knights and whole dragon thing played in further game(s).
I failed to see critical issue with isometric view,though, especially if dragons and their descendants will play second-plane role. I still don't see how they fit the story, though.


Eh, forgot DD/BD.

The terms are still not interchangeable, even if the existence of dragon riders may have influenced the design of dragon knights (Lar posted an early story concept with the character being a phoenix, so it wasn't a direct evolution if there is a connection).

In any case, my comment about dragon riders was less about the name than the fact that the 'dragons' were not free flying creatures, but merely moved just above the ground (unsurprisingly for a 2D game released in 2002).

If the player character is able to fly freely, a third person view with an adjustable camera would be much more suitable than a fixed direction isometric camera. Overhead cameras have been used with some flying games (arcade shooters, RTS games, etc) with size, shadows or perspective to indicate height, but I don't think that would be generally acceptable for a modern RPG.

yes, the 2D graphics didn't succeed much in creating the illusion of a free-roaming creature flying high in the sky. Any fool can see that. Plus, they were forced to carry their riders, too.

If Isometric RPG's aren't favored then why are the Ultima series, Baldur's Gate series, Planescape and Fallout 1&2 considered some of the best RPG's? Why is Baldur's Gate being re-released with extra content and an enhancement after 12 years? Why has Obsidian Entertainment started a kickstarter game which is to be a traditional isometric party based RPG? Why has Larian gone back to the isometric RPG genre? Why do most who have played Divine Divinity and DKS prefer the first over the later?

Now I'm not fan of Obsidian Entertainment games due to their bugs but they are a big developer and their re-entrance into the isometric RPG territory speaks volumes considering how much money people have pledged towards their project.

So drop the "isometric games aren't favored" argument because that's supported by no evidence. Yes other genres are just as popular but isometric RPG's are still favored and the fact that developers are going back to them says much. No one would still be playing Baldur's Gate, Planescape, Icewind Dale, Ultima, Fallout 1&2 years/decades after their releases if that were the case and these games are still be published which speaks for itself.

Dragon Age may have a party system but it isn't open world like any Divinity game. The only recently released open-world party-based game I've played that's actually been a big release was Dragon's Dogma and it proved popular due to its combat, open world and the fact that you explored it with companions.

Now imagine Divinity 3 in the vein of Divinity 2 with the multiple quest solutions, amazing dialogue, role-playing choices and consequences and class system combined with companions each with their own unique personalities and witty dialogue and you get to explore an open world with them using a variety of mounts. Hell a wyrm mount could even be included so later on you get to fly to places but still I don't think Divinity 3 should be about another Dragon Knight because we've already covered that ground just like Divinity 1 covered the Divine ground.

Admittedly as much as I'd love to play as The Divine One again, it's probably not likely due to The Divine One being set in canon as a male warrior named Lucien so unless Divinity 3 is going to forsake much customization or allow us to overwrite Larian's canon I doubt we will be playing as The Divine One again. To me it seems as though each "main" Divinity series actually introduces a unique protagonist who is special. Divinity 1 had us playing The Divine One, Divinity 2 had us playing the last Dragon Knight. Surely Divinity 3 will give us something new too.

That being said, I'm not averse to the idea (especially if this time the world is truly open and we get to fly anywhere) but I still think it's old ground now (especially with Dragon Commander which will pretty much cover everything about Dragon Knights) and Larian should do something new with each Divinity game (while still retaining the traditional RPG elements).

out of all the games you listed, i do not recognize any of those games apart from fallout, and if fallout 3 or new vegas didn't come out as a 3rd/1st person RPG then i would not know what fallout is, it seems the older generation gamers seem to like isometric, where as the majority of the gaming community will want a 3rd/1st person RPG

Isometric games are best for games like orignal sin, because it's co-op and the type of game you would jump on with a friend and have a good time, an Action RPG, however divinty 2 was not a Action RPG, it was an RPG that got you immersed into the game with a good story and good combat mechanics,open world and a decent leveling system, divine divinty has thus far not grabbed me as well as divinty 2 did.

RPGs should be immersive, not something you just play for fun and spend a few hours a day on it, but something to spend your whole week locked up in your room completing.

For some reason I really have issues with first-person RPGs.

well then i guess it's a good thing not many people make them, the one developer i can name that makes 1st person RPGs is bethesda.

Not because of the perspective, imho. Rather because of their story, imho.



Because

- no-one does isometric view nowadays
- isometric view is considered (as a tendency) rather as "old, school"
- and the target group is the mature gamer, the one in the 30+ and 40+ years, not the younger audiences
- because this special target group has been thrown away by the mjor risc-averse huge gaming companies, which still far prefer teenagers and 20+ people as their target groups (you could have clearly seen it if you had had a look at the apparent ages of people on the Games Com).

This is my opinion.

Edit : Isometric view is imho the *best* choice for a really tactical RPG game.

And tactical RPGs are something the mass of shooter-playing gamers just doesn't want. They want non-tactical RPGs, things like Gothic, for example, wherin the only "tactic" consists of real body movemrnt "swinging".

Tactic-RPGs vs. Action-RPGs (with a lot of Action-RPGs favouring the isometric view as well, because it gives the player a better overlook onto those masses of hordes of enemies which need to be slaughtered).

I have never seen any REALLY tactical RPG with a 3D view apart from Incubation, and that was a turn-based shooter. (Real-Time With Pause doesn't count, because it is Real Time in its essence, as its name suggests.)

Even so-called "tactical shooters" clearly prefer the 3D vision.

Exactly my point, took those words right out of my mouth there.

Well considering I'm not of the "older generation" your statement is rather wrong. The official Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition's forum is rather active with many new topics being created every day and I'd wager alot of those users are of the "new generation" so to speak. Dragon Age: Origins sold so well not just because it was an untainted Bioware behind it but because it was passed off as the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate and the PC version had a top down camera. Likewise the Neverwinter Nights series were modeled in the same vein as both had top down cameras (although this camera view isn't isometric, it's still similar in some ways).

Original Sin isn't a co-op game. Yeah it has co-op but it's nothing like what I think you're expecting it to turn out to be. It's not Diablo and features much dialogue, choices and consequences and ability to interact with the world akin to Divine Divinity. Like with the Ultima series, you can pick up components and combine them to create items. So if you have water, dough and an oven, you can create bread. Combat is based on statistics and is turn-based so it's not an action-RPG. Original Sin will be in the vein of Divine Divinity. Even the combat will require more thought just like combat required some thought in Divine Divinity.

Divinity 2 WAS an action-RPG because you yourself had to press buttons to attack and some things relied on player skill.



And that perspective contributed to some of the great elements of those games. The way the world was designed, combat mechanics, atmosphere, artstyle, all of that was due to the games being isometric.



And what do you base your opinion off of? Because the fact that isometric RPG's are re-emerging (or their evolved top-down counterparts) speaks volumes against your statement.



No. Shooter player gamers want dumbed down third person RPG's such as Skyrim, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect 3 and Fable 3. The later games all performed worst in sales than their predecessors. Skyrim only performed well because of the hype and fact that TES games don't come out often but ratings wise, it performed worst than previous TES games.

Action-loot-RPG's (such as Diablo) are the top-down games you're referring too but I'm not.

No there's not many isometric games coming out today but that's not because there's no market for them (there is), it's because many developers favor using top down cameras instead which can rotate but functionality is still similar as some of these cameras allow the user to pan across the screen.

...setting and gameplay. Dialogues. Chaercter deveopment. Game mechanics.

Yea those are important to



well any game you have to push buttons otherwise it would be a movie.

and you do know what an action RPG is, right?
Action RPGs are games like Darkspore, Diablo, Orcs must die (in a way) Deus Ex HR, Rage, the hack and slash games and the games based around how FUN it is, not the RPGs that seek to immerse you into the game, the ones that are slightly less fun but a hell of a lot more addictive, Like divinty 2 was a very good game, i spent 50+ hours on it so far and im not bored of it, and im in my 2nd playthrough and my first time playing it i got really immersed into the game world, it kinda felt like i was the dragon knight, i wasn't playing a game, however that does not mean its the most fun game i have played, i have a lot more fun playing a game like Darkspore, Diablo or FTL but it's just fun, not immersive, and single player RPGs are supposed to be immersive, if you want to play an RPG for maxing out your character any way possible and not get immersed into the game, play an MMO.

Well if I get immersed in Call of Duty, does that suddenly mean it's a traditional role playing game? Of course not! When I was referring to "bashing buttons" I meant for combat. Divinity 2 requires you to constantly bash the attack button to attack. In Divinity Divinity all you had to do was click on an enemy and your character attacked, combat was based on statistics and your abilities. While Divinity 2 still retains an importance for statistics and abilities, there are some encounters where you can win by skill alone and your rolling and jumping capabilities become important during these fights (especially if you're playing on Nightmare).

immersed into call of duty? BAHAHAHAHA! "Im honored to finally meet the court jester"

im sorry but after reading that i can't take you seriously anymore

Well I was kinda exposing your faulty logic there.

"Divinity II immerses me, therefore it's *not* an action-RPG despite having the mechanics of one. Rather it's a traditional-old-school-RPG in the vein of RPG's like Baldur's Gate."

"CoD immerses me, therefore it's *not* an FPS despite having the mechanics of one. Rather it's a traditional-old-school-RPG in the vein of RPG's like Baldur's Gate."

No, CoD has never immersed me, I don't even like it. Castlevania Lords of Shadow immersed me though and I truly sympathized with Gabriel but do I consider it a traditional-RPG for that reason? No. It's just proof that an action-adventure game can immerse you too. Action-RPG's are meant to immerse the player due to the importance of story (why do you think Mass Effect and The Witcher 2 are so popular?) so if Divinity II didn't immerse anyone, then it wasn't doing its job.

Diablo, Darkspore and Torchlight are all action-loot-RPG's (there's a fundamental difference) and are based upon killing, looting and leveling up. There's no role playing in terms of choices to make and the story is lite.

Action-RPG's have many things in similar with a traditional RPG but combat contains action elements and some aspects are down to player skill.

BUT YOU LOOT THEREFORE YOU ROLEPLAY! You can show all your friends what cool things you earned during your non-stop 24/7 loot/leveling marathon (because you have no job and too much free time)! Isn't this a roleplay - when you play a role of a loot bot? And you play it well!

I take it you don't like loot games. Neither do I.

@demonic and @kein

yes nondedoeme yes!

O_o I don't get the dislike for loot games... for me I play them more like in 40 minute chunks during weekdays when I don't have time to play a real RPG (read non-loot), cause if I start one, I will probably miss my job the next day and that will be bad.

Lootgames are lootgames - not role-playing games.

It's as if I'd call a Formula 1 fast-racing car race a sightseeing tourist tour.

Loot games are boring most of the time and just involving killing hordes of enemies and then collecting new loot. I need engaging combat and a good plot to keep me progressing. Loot games can't hold my attention for too long.

War in The North is the only action RPG "loot" game that has done that and that's because it isn't like other loot games which simply feature one button for your normal attacks and one for abilities. WiTN actually featured action combat, a plot and dialogue so there was plenty of reason to keep progressing through the game and I found the combat engaging, fluid and more importantly, fun. If anything WiTN was more-or-less an action-RPG with looting elements.

You don't know about the best games in the rpg genre? ffs...

I would add Arcanum and Divine Divinity to this list. My rpg experience would not be the same without all those games.