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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2013
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I think part of the reason why it’s becoming more of a big deal is because of stuff like this: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-gamesJust proposing this project kicked off a huge firestorm of misogyny for inexplicable, stupid reasons. “It’s always been done like that before.” Is a really weak argument. Well, if the straight guy thinks the treatment of women is okay, then I guess there’s no problem! (Spoiler: I am also a straight guy.) Gaming has really treated women as afterthoughts, only good for sexy cover art and such for a long time. The demographics of game players have changed from “almost entirely men”. The percentage of gamers who are women are close to 50% by now, but the marketing hasn’t caught up. Larian has been okay in terms of gender roles before. In Divine Divinity, General Alix was head of the Ducal army, 3/5 of the Black Ring bosses were women. In Divinity 2 Rhode was the most powerful Dragon Slayer, some of the Black Ring generals were women, the final boss was a woman. But there are also questionable things too. Look at this interview about Dragon Commander. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UBGtRTjIT6Y#t=807sCatherine is a general, who used to be a former queen. She is described as a feminist, a champion for equal gender rights... and her concept art, she’s wearing skintight leather with a goddamn cleavage window. Come on, now. Me, personally, I don’t mind the Original Sin box art. Maybe I’m part of the problem too. But do you know what? I would buy that game even if the box art had her in unflattering plate mail. There have been several comments along the lines, “I know someone who REFUSES to buy the game because of the girl’s ridiculous outfit.” I have no problem if Larian changes the box art to make her outfit look more combat-practical, especially if that means it will get more people to buy the game (and support the Kickstarter). Do YOU have any GOOD reasons why not to change the art? It's cover art, I mean, men in games also always look like bloody Adonises able to lift a truck with one hand as well (but I'm sure the female audience doesn't mind), even Wizards who supposedly are fantasy's basement dwelling nerds. The difference being that all us skinny geeks just shrug and move on instead of getting all riled up. As long as the actual in game armours are functional (as they were in D2 at least) and the actual character dialogues are good (which they were in D2) I really am not that bothered about the cover art, though yes, the thought had crossed my mind when I first saw it (but then the dysfunctionally "exposed" armors for women have always bothered me). I am also probably odd in the sense that I'd probably find her more attractive if she were wearing "real" armor (in that sense the cover probably doesn't have the desired effect on me  ).
* as usual this is imho (unless stated otherwise); feel free to disagree, ignore or try to change my mind. Agreeing with me is ofc also allowed, but makes for much worse flamewarsarguments.
It is a full moon night and ... bèèè! ... the Weresheep are out...
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Aug 2009
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Doesn't anyone remember the cover-art of the first game? ![[Linked Image]](http://bestgamewallpapers.com/files/divine-divinity/div-cover.jpg) Wasn't a problem back then. Jesus Christ, dude, don't you see? Are you blind? That picture is full of sexism and misogyny, how do you even dare to post that? Every picture with implaied and arguable sexualization for the sake of actual sexualization is a no-no now. Erotic and artistic nudity forbidden too. Because sexism and misogyny. You aren't sexist and mysoginist, are you? Huh, huh?!
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Aug 2010
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“It’s always been done like that before.” Is a really weak argument. Well, if the straight guy thinks the treatment of women is okay, then I guess there’s no problem! (Spoiler: I am also a straight guy.) Larian has been okay in terms of gender roles before. In Divine Divinity, General Alix was head of the Ducal army, 3/5 of the Black Ring bosses were women. In Divinity 2 Rhode was the most powerful Dragon Slayer, some of the Black Ring generals were women, the final boss was a woman. But there are also questionable things too. Look at this interview about Dragon Commander. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UBGtRTjIT6Y#t=807sCatherine is a general, who used to be a former queen. She is described as a feminist, a champion for equal gender rights... and her concept art, she’s wearing skintight leather with a goddamn cleavage window. Come on, now. Do YOU have any GOOD reasons why not to change the art? 1. No it's not. I'm not here to argue the moral rights and wrongs but sales for games with a woman showing her cleavage on the front cover have always been dependent on the advertising and whether one likes what they see of the gameplay just like with all games. It's irrelevant IMO. Several people might boycott the game but everyone else will buy it anyway. 2. Part of Larian's humor if you ask me. Meanwhile if you look at the concept art for men there are several (in both DC and Original Sin) who have their bare chests showing. If the women showing cleavage are for men then the men showing their muscly hairy torsos are for women. 3. It looks good and aesthetic design shouldn't be sacrificed because some people can't handle a bit of skin. That is the woman's default armor in the game and I don't see anything sexual with it asides from the cleavage showing. If you have ever read a woman's fashion magazine or at least opened one then you'll see that revealing female attire isn't just in the mind of men. If it was a half-naked man on the front cover we wouldn't be hearing any outrage. Again I'm not arguing for the moral rights or wrongs of revealing clothing but I see nothing sexual about the cover-art. I see a man and a woman holding hands and the woman isn't striking a sexual pose. I guess the real problem is with the cleavage showing but to think that that would stop people from buying the game is wrong if you ask me. The majority will decide based on the merits of the gameplay itself.
Last edited by Demonic; 07/04/13 07:44 PM.
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member
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member
Joined: Apr 2013
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Real feminists in medieval fantasy times know that a girl in armor will be laughed at by the real men.. While a barely dressed woman will have a way easier time convincing her allies and confusing her foes... Woman arent stupid (well.... I have to agree alot of humanity has become horribly stupid in the last 15 years) and know how to use their strong sides for the best.. Just saying.. The chick with the tight armor will probably cut you in half while you are staring at her armor  and the one with the massive plate set will probably be pushed in a river as a joke and drown  From the guild wars series to world of warcraft, from divine divinity to d&d ... Every single game that exsists has this kinda stuff.. So welcome to the internet
Last edited by Timeraider; 07/04/13 08:37 PM.
 Butler at WoOS - Weresheeps unite!
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jan 2009
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Is it dumb of people to judge the game just based on the cover? Yes it is.
Dumb people exist. Their money is as good as anyone else's. If they really would buy the game if the cover was changed in that really small way, then change the cover and laugh to the bank with their money in your hand.
If Larian changes it, suddenly they'll seem more responsive and enlightened - that's good publicity.
2. I have no idea what "Part of Larian's humor if you ask me" is referring to or what it means. Do you mean the Dragon Commander feminist with the dominatrix catsuit (with boob window!)?
3. It looks good to you. To other people, it looks stupid because the guy is in sensible monster-fighting armor and the girl's guts are protected only by bare skin. It may not be overly sexual, but it's impractical for no purpose.
As for the asethetic, I do like that aesthetic, and I am fully confident that the artist who made that great cover can manage to add clothing without ruining the entire thing.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Aug 2010
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@TimeRaider She can "cut me in half" any day of the week.![[Linked Image]](http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sex014.gif) Is it dumb of people to judge the game just based on the cover? Yes it is.
Dumb people exist. Their money is as good as anyone else's. If they really would buy the game if the cover was changed in that really small way, then change the cover and laugh to the bank with their money in your hand.
If Larian changes it, suddenly they'll seem more responsive and enlightened - that's good publicity.
2. I have no idea what "Part of Larian's humor if you ask me" is referring to or what it means. Do you mean the Dragon Commander feminist with the dominatrix catsuit (with boob window!)?
3. It looks good to you. To other people, it looks stupid because the guy is in sensible monster-fighting armor and the girl's guts are protected only by bare skin. It may not be overly sexual, but it's impractical for no purpose.
As for the asethetic, I do like that aesthetic, and I am fully confident that the artist who made that great cover can manage to add clothing without ruining the entire thing. 1. Cater to them and Larian might as well cater to all the minorities raising minor complaints. 2. The fact that she's a feminist and highly sexualised. 3. By default she's not a warrior though and is always shown with a bow. By this point her "armor" does become practical as it allows for faster movement and mobility. I suppose you could argue "put in her leather armor then" which is valid. Since her default build is with the bow I don't think her armor is impractical although the cleavage show is unnecessary. The cover art is meant to show the default characters (like Mass Effect shows the default Shepard despite the fact you can create your own of either gender). She's not striking any sexual poses. I think the real problem is the cleavage display. But I don't care either way about what Larian do. I just think the complaint is an over-exaggeration. And to clear things up. I prefer practical armor on both male and female characters but I don't have a problem with the woman's current armor. It's not highly sexualised. It's the eastern fantasy female armor I have a problem with.
Last edited by Demonic; 07/04/13 09:32 PM.
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Support
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Support
Joined: Mar 2003
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That is the woman's default armor in the game and I don't see anything sexual with it asides from the cleavage showing. No, that is just the concept art; the armour in the game is realistic. I don't see the image as sexist, it's just silly. If arms, legs and stomach are going to be uncovered, then there isn't much point of the gauntlets and shoulder pad.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2011
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Just saying.. The chick with the tight armor will probably cut you in half while you are staring at her armor This is actually a great idea for an item. Cloak of seducing - +x to initiative, yx% chance for enemy to miss an atack.
Last edited by Sawovsky; 07/04/13 09:46 PM.
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member
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member
Joined: Feb 2012
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Just saying.. The chick with the tight armor will probably cut you in half while you are staring at her armor This is actually a great idea for an item. Cloak of seducing - +x to initiative, yx% chance for enemy to miss an atack. Hey... this is actually a pretty good idea
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2011
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+x initiative, because there is a bigger chance to strike first while enemy is seduced with your apperance, and yx% chance for enemy to miss because they are constantly obstructed with your sexy look
Last edited by Sawovsky; 07/04/13 10:19 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Apr 2010
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Lord, did someone just post a link to Anita Sarkeesian? Burn it with fire.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jan 2009
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1. Cater to them and Larian might as well cater to all the minorities raising minor complaints.
2. The fact that she's a feminist and highly sexualised.
3. By default she's not a warrior though and is always shown with a bow. By this point her "armor" does become practical as it allows for faster movement and mobility. I suppose you could argue "put in her leather armor then" which is valid.
Since her default build is with the bow I don't think her armor is impractical although the cleavage show is unnecessary. The cover art is meant to show the default characters (like Mass Effect shows the default Shepard despite the fact you can create your own of either gender).
She's not striking any sexual poses. I think the real problem is the cleavage display.
But I don't care either way about what Larian do. I just think the complaint is an over-exaggeration.
And to clear things up. I prefer practical armor on both male and female characters but I don't have a problem with the woman's current armor. It's not highly sexualised. It's the eastern fantasy female armor I have a problem with.
1. It's true that there are all kinds of unreasonable complaints that Larian shouldn't bother catering to. I don't think that putting both genders in costumes that have the same level of practicality is so incredibly unreasonable. 2. Yeah... I guess I can kinda see that. Producing a strange reaction by giving her arguments that feminists can wholeheartedly agree with, and an over-the-top outfit that sends a much different message. 3. That argument has no merit. As far as I can tell, they should both start out with identical stats and be built in any way you want. Yes, for the demos Larian is giving her the bow, but a player could easily make her the melee tank with a 2H-Battleaxe and tons more HP than the guy. Can we at least agree that the fact that her only protection is a shoulder pad and battle bra is ridiculous. Bad guys can shoot arrows too!
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Apr 2013
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You guys have problems, omg.... :P
WOOS
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jan 2008
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My Husband pretty much picks female characters 50% of the time given choice and I find that quite normal. I tend to pick female 90% of the time...used to pick male more often but I just feel comfortable and identify more as female physically. I think gender is just an identification with physical form which is a perceptual construct....remove your brain/consciousness from the body and put it into a body of the opposite gender for a period and you'd start to identify with that form given time. I think if you have only to control one character it should be roleplayable for you as you are very identified with the male physical form.
I think Divinity 2 was not sexist...no metal bikinis and the armors were lovely. I do find a lot of games ignore female players completely though or overlook them. Recently playing one there was an option for marriage. Lots of attractive female npc's were available and about 3 old men so it was become a lesbian or go for a father figure ;-)
Last edited by Catelee2u; 08/04/13 07:46 AM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2013
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I like the Divine Divinity coverart and dislike the Original Sin coverart. Make of that what you will...
"Love one another and you will be happy. It's as simple and as difficult as that" - Leunig
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Aug 2010
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1. Cater to them and Larian might as well cater to all the minorities raising minor complaints.
2. The fact that she's a feminist and highly sexualised.
3. By default she's not a warrior though and is always shown with a bow. By this point her "armor" does become practical as it allows for faster movement and mobility. I suppose you could argue "put in her leather armor then" which is valid.
Since her default build is with the bow I don't think her armor is impractical although the cleavage show is unnecessary. The cover art is meant to show the default characters (like Mass Effect shows the default Shepard despite the fact you can create your own of either gender).
She's not striking any sexual poses. I think the real problem is the cleavage display.
But I don't care either way about what Larian do. I just think the complaint is an over-exaggeration.
And to clear things up. I prefer practical armor on both male and female characters but I don't have a problem with the woman's current armor. It's not highly sexualised. It's the eastern fantasy female armor I have a problem with.
1. It's true that there are all kinds of unreasonable complaints that Larian shouldn't bother catering to. I don't think that putting both genders in costumes that have the same level of practicality is so incredibly unreasonable. 2. Yeah... I guess I can kinda see that. Producing a strange reaction by giving her arguments that feminists can wholeheartedly agree with, and an over-the-top outfit that sends a much different message. 3. That argument has no merit. As far as I can tell, they should both start out with identical stats and be built in any way you want. Yes, for the demos Larian is giving her the bow, but a player could easily make her the melee tank with a 2H-Battleaxe and tons more HP than the guy. Can we at least agree that the fact that her only protection is a shoulder pad and battle bra is ridiculous. Bad guys can shoot arrows too! 1. Well Larian are fine with it. If they are fine with it then they shouldn't change the cover-art because a handful of people dislike it. Well that's what I think of that. I know you disagree. 3. That's true and I'm not arguing against that, I'm just saying that I'm thinking that upon starting the game, the male would automatically be a warrior and the female will be a ranger in the character creation menu as that's how they've been shown so far in both gameplay, screen shots and concept art hence why I'm saying that that there's "default builds". Yes the armor is ridiculous. But in any case. You make fine points and I see little reason to continue here. Of course you're free to add to your argument. For me I agree the armor is ridiculous but it's not highly sexual so the current art is not a problem for me.
Last edited by Demonic; 08/04/13 12:25 PM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jan 2009
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From what we've been told about character creation, everyone starts out the same and you made all the decisions about who does what. At best, there would be a thing like "New Game: Flames of Vengeance" where there were class buttons to give you presets to use or alter. There won't be any such thing as "automatically" or "by default". I think I'll leave it here as well.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Mar 2009
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is this thread run by americans or fundamental islamists?
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Apr 2010
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Like I said. Kill it fire.
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2011
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No need to fight - if the KS is successful we'll introduce gender recognition & so cater for man/man, man/woman, woman/woman. It will for sure add to our workload but that's why we're doing the Kickstarter. And we'll take care not to dumb things down. As a matter of fact, we're seeking exactly the opposite I had renewed faith in the studio when I saw the vid "kickstarter update 02: review meeting". If the game is passing through that kind of critique, well, you got me convinced. Back to the main topic, just a feedback: When I first saw the poster, a specific couple walking hand by hand, I already imagined a specialized, deep story line. I thought, "locked and specific characters, but hey, since they're specific maybe the story is more engaging and deep." That is the impression I got when I looked at the poster. I even expected some intense dialogue between the couple (man/woman) as they go about their adventure. IMO the poster itself already sold a specific idea to the customer. You got them holding hands, a customer might also expect the story arc to revolve around, say... love? If you got a poster that elicits that expectation you better be sure to deliver it. The quote above doesn't stop there does it? We have gender combinations and class combinations. Essentially, you're aiming for a module without pre-generated characters.
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Moderated by ForkTong, gbnf, Issh, Kurnster, Larian_QA, LarSeb, Lar_q, Lynn, Monodon, Raze, Stephen_Larian |
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