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And I hope it stays. I've read that some folks were against it entirely, thus my perspective on that matter defending it.

I don't think that would be a good idea. I would need to respect after finding out a desired skill is just bad. :p
I hope we get a lot of utility upgrades for the skills. Generic "does even more damage" is nice to have, but it's terrible boring, in particular if you have it for all skills.
I always like when you get additional effects, the more creative, the better.

yeah sorry
not == now

Replying to Rack:

Since the attribute cap (that we know at this time) is probably 20 (5 fixed, 5 starting, 10 level-ups), I'll pedantically rephrase that example:

A STR 20, PER 5 warrior versus a STR 13, PER 12 warrior. That many stat points means you're probably fighting level 10 enemies or higher.

You think that the warrior with PER 5 - the same as a level 1 warrior - fighting level 10 enemies, should be able hit enemies often enough to out-damage the 13/12 guy. And you call that balanced.

No, that is not balance. If the 20/5 guy with the huge accuracy penalty can outdamage the 13/12 guy, that would mean that PER is not actually a useful stat to invest in. (That's another form of imbalance.)

EDIT: Well, I can see your point. Yes, individual hits would do much more damage for 20 STR vs 13, but I think a 13/12 should still do more damage because there should be many more hits than with a 20/5. If PER is going to stay, it has to have a big enough impact on fighting to make an actual difference. If you can ignore it and still end up doing more damage overall, that's a sign that PER is not being as useful as it needs to be.


Intelligence as a Wizard's only necessary attribute
For the record, I don't mind that wizards only have the one stat. Given the large focus on using elemental magic, I think having magic only be one stat will make hybrid characters much more viable than if they needed 2 attributes to use for magic. My concern is that it seems like warriors will have a much harder time because they have to use the solitary attribute point they get per level to keep three stats at reasonable levels and stay effective. It's the Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards problem.

The thing there is if you are building a Warrior and you have 15 points to put into increasing his damage then increasing Strength beyond 13 is just a flat out bad option. If a Strength 20/5 build deals the most damage but is the least reliable option then that's where you get tradeoffs.

20/5 gets you the most damage on average but it pays for that by being unreliable. An unlucky streak might lose you an easy fight. It's flat out worse against low hitpoint enemies. It's a real headache in situations when you absolutely need to do some damage. You tend to waste more of that damage on overkill.

13/12 is balanced. You can still miss, luck is still a factor but less so and your average damage is still pretty good.

5/20 is probably a bit extreme but still useful. At this stage you're very likely to hit most enemies no matter what. You might suffer a bit of "over-accuracy" with attacks more than 100% likely to hit. (personally I'd add this to crit chance as a further balancing measure). As an added bonus you are equally effective with Daggers, Swords and Bows.

If you design it around co-efficients then a balanced character is just plain better. That's just not an interesting option.

As far as the Wizards v Warriors curve it's nowhere near as bad as linear Warrior quadratic Wizard, both increase at a linear rate, it's just the Wizard can potentially afford to dedicate more resource to Int. That's still not an inherent problem, you just have to give the warrior more for every point he puts into Strength. You could argue there's an issue that the zero point is 5 Strength 5 Int but you can set the initial values to be whatever you want. Just balance 6 str against 7 int and you should be fine.

heres a thought, magic users needing perception for hit. If they did, that could help balance against intelligence being such a powerful stat. Also speaking of both perception and intelligence, some of the "lesser" benefits of int could feasibly go to perception to round it out.

I have a proposal about speed, have it serve the same function, but with a different implementation by changing it to add action points instead of giving action point discounts. If i understand the action point mechanic correctly that would act as pretty much the same, but gives it a possible buff in terms of a high speed character could possibly attack more often. Which makes sense, and might not be unbalanced due to the fact that they spent points on speed instead of damage bonuses, so could retain similar dps. If the base number of action points is low, then it could be a fraction, so that a 0.5 bonus in ap could be an extra point every 2 turns.

I dont know if i like the idea that of crit being purely a function of weapons, but i dont think it can go on perception due to that having hit already, and any other stat would just become overpowered. maybe its something left for talents/perks.

Saw that daggers are dex weapons, that/s great! maybe a small number of other dex weps, like blackjacks and other roguey weps, just for a tiny bit for variety.

If speed offered the same dpt as the main damage stat it would be hugely overpowered, there'd be little reason for any physical class to take anything else. It would offer the same damage, increased reliability, more flexibility, less redundancy and the defense boost.

You could probably put physical crit on Intelligence as long as you had a system in place to stop primary spellcasters also being dominant in melee. Maybe a talent that trades spell damage for physical crit.

i let my words get away from me, i didnt really mean same dps, meant similar, also taking into account the utility and defenses of the other aspects of speed. but im just throwing ideas around, seeing what sticks. i just really didnt like the stat descriptions i saw originally

You've a very good point ! I want to say "sorry" to everyone I smash the word "fun" to his/her head a thousand times !
Of course this word fun is for everybody a different thing AND can change too ! An example to understand it better: day 1 I find combat the most fun in DKS, but on day 2 I've more fun because of the dialogs or the quests ... because EACH day I can be in another "mood"! But now I try to say STOP because that 3 letter word, I said to myself ! Like Stabbey said it as crystal clear :
"we(Joram!) should stop talking about HOW to make it fun - that doesn’t really get us anywhere" ... [Corect ... annoying, but correct !! O sorry, I can't resist, but just kidding you ]

To be more specific :
1) I trust the developers make Divnity Original Sin Awesome, no doubt about it ! And the more it's THANKS to all the comments of gamers on this forum, on twitter, on facebook, on kickstarter, etc ... because the devs know how to deal with all the commends and make the best game ever created, I'm sure !
2) For me ALL that comes in D:OS is okay because I'm just a simple boy and you can please me easely ! All the stas start to dizzling me in the head ... too much for ME !
3) I'm 100% sure D:OS will be build on many many logical systems of many many numbers ... in the BACKGROUND of the game ! But the Interface of D:OS will be intuitive enough to understand for a simple boy like me ... not too difficult to understand the basics & rather easy to learn the most important steps/moves/actions! Of course this last is very important for ME(intuitive to learn!!), otherwise I start to become angry, frustrated, etc ... and stop playing !
4) And for those who like it they can make a deep study of the game mechanisms to learn how all systems and numbers counting on ... that's okay I do that too, but only after months playing .. I'm a sloooow boy

5) And last but not least: I'm a big fan of the Larian Games (you know) and sorry if I start to become "too emotional" in my posts !

Sorry Taragon, I was a bit snarky with my point there. What I was trying to get across was that even accounting for defense and the ability to trade attack for more movement multiple small attacks are generally more useful than one big attack.

If you've played a lot of turn based strategy I imagine you will have very often run into a situation where it's vitally important to do just a little bit of damage to one or more enemies. Maybe you've just blasted a few ogres with some fireballs that didn't quite do the job, maybe there are some small archers with low hp targeting your wizard. But the only time you absolutely have to do a lot of damage or none at all is when you're just about to lose.

The only situation I've seen that might generate an exception to this is resistance in D&D. Those reduce damage by a flat amount. That flips the situation on its head and suddenly risky overwhelming attacks become more powerful than a steady stream of reliable attacks. I don't think we're likely to see that often here, but if we did there'd be more room for Perception and possibly even Speed being important factors in the amount of damage you do.

Everything is always far more complex than I initially think
I fear that this game strives to be everything and needs to specialize in something. Otherwise everything will be just average.

1. Stats design depends on game design. Stats cannot be designed in isolation from game.
I guess it all flows from the most interesting scenarios with 2-player party with henchmen.
You cannot expect that good stats(in isolation) can provide emergent strategies. You have to design it that way.
In other words this game needs design phase, then QA phase(with different character builds), then based on QA input next iteration. What we doing right now is designing stats and trying to make sense of them in vacuum.

2. Implementation of the Source can change everything
I also don't know anything about spells and it sounds like they will be deeply integrated into story(because of the Source) so asking about them is spoilery. Will the Source give ability to buff? Please give me some links about available spells if I missed them.

3. Good example(from thread) of designing in vacuum
Stabbey and Rack described how two different fighters with different distribution between str/per would work. I agree that it's a compromise between chance(high str, low per) and reliability(high per, medium str). This argument does not take into account buffs/potions(?) to increase perception.
Also this argument is only about single character(the game has 2). Maybe you will rely on your party members to do their job. Maybe you know about piece of equipment that will give +5 to perception. Maybe you just a reckless mother*** who wants to test some perks(I hope)

As some food for thought and for inspiration I want to present the character building and stats of one of the best games ever created: Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines. In the comment section on Kickstarter there was mention of another game with an apparently good stat system -- Dark Souls -- but since I haven't played it I can't comment on it.


VtM: Bloodlines

Bloodlines features Feats, which are the only "stats" that have a direct influence on gameplay. They are basically skills the character can make use of during the game, like ranged combat, lockpicking or intimidation. These Feats are derived from two types of stats: Attributes and Abilities. Each Attribute or Ability can affect one or two Feats. There are also Disciplines (read: magic spells), but they are not relevant to this discussion. Here's a screenshot:



Feats

As described, Feats have a direct influence on gameplay. They are derived from one Attribute and one Ability score each and are divided into four groups: Combat, Covert, Mental and Soak. Combat feats obviously focus on combat skills, Covert feats on subterfuge and research, Mental feats on Dialogue skills, and Soak on damage mitigation.

Syntax: Feat name (ATTRIBUTE + Ability)

• Combat
  • Unarmed (STR + Brawl): Modifies damage while fighting unarmed
  • Melee (STR + Melee): Modifies damage when using melee weapons
  • Ranged (PER + Firearms): Modifies damage done using firearms
  • Defense (WIT + Dodge): Improves chance to avoid taking damage from all forms of combat
• Covert
  • Lockpicking (DEX + Security): Improves ability to open locked doors
  • Sneaking (DEX + Stealth): Reduces chance to be spotted while hiding
  • Hacking (WIT + Computers): Grants the ability to break passwords on computers
  • Inspection (PER + Investigation): Improves ability to spot hidden objects and passages
  • Research (INT + Scholarship): Grants the ability to read tomes to improve stats
• Mental
  • Haggle (MAN + Finance): Reduces cost of buying items and improves the amount gained when selling
  • Intimidate (INT + Intimidation): Improves ability to force people into agreeing with you
  • Persuasion (CHR + Scholarship): Improves ability to convince others to agree with you
  • Seduction (APP + Subterfuge): Improves ability to use your appearance to your advantage
• Soak
  • Bashing (STA + [Items]): Reduces damage suffered from blunt damage types
  • Lethal ([Items]): Reduces damage suffered from slashing or piercing weapons
  • Aggrevated ([Items]): Reduces damage taken from fire, electricity, claws, and fangs

Attributes

Attributes are your classic main stats like STR and INT. They are divided into three groups: Physical, Social and Mental attributes. They affect Feats that are relevant in combat, social situations or for actions that require a sharp mind.

• Physical
  • Strength: Adds +1 to unarmed and melee
  • Dexterity: Adds +1 to sneaking and lockpicking
  • Stamina: Adds +1 to soak bashing
• Social
  • Charisma: Adds +1 to persuasion
  • Manipulation: Adds +1 to haggle
  • Appearance: Adds +1 to seduction
• Mental
  • Perception: Adds +1 to ranged and inspection
  • Intelligence: Adds +1 to research and intimidate
  • Wits: Adds +1 to defense and hacking

Abilities

Abilities are stats that mostly have a direct effect on a corresponding feat. They are divided into three groups: Talents, Skills and Knowledges. Talents are physical abilities, Skills are technical abilities and Knowdledges are learned mental abilities.

• Talents
  • Brawl: Adds +1 to unarmed
  • Dodge: Adds +1 to defense
  • Intimidation: Adds +1 to intimidate
  • Subterfuge: Adds +1 to seduction
• Skills
  • Firearms: Adds +1 to ranged
  • Melee: Adds +1 to melee
  • Security: Adds +1 to lockpicking
  • Stealth: Adds +1 to sneaking
• Knowledges
  • Computer: Adds +1 to hacking
  • Finance: Adds +1 to haggle
  • Investigation: Adds +1 to inspection
  • Scholarship: Adds +1 to research and persuasion

What it all means

• Feats range from 1-10, Attributes and Abilities range from 1-5. To maximize a Feat you have to maximize one Attribute and one Ability. This allows for a lot of flexibility in customizing your character. The relatively small number of points also mean that each point matters.
• Checks can be made in various situations against Feats: in Combat, during dialogues or for reading skill books etc. This allows game designers to create interesting and rewarding gameplay throughout the game.
• Experience points are rewarded only for completing quests or progressing in the story, not for how many enemies you kill. This forces the player to solve quests in creative ways; generally by fighting, sneaking or talking.
• Experience points can be assigned to Abilities and Attributes (and Disciplines), but get more expensive with each successive point. E.g. the first stat increase costs 1 point, the second stat increase costs 3 points, and so on. This counters inflation and forces the player to either specialize or be Jack-of-all-Trades, Master-of-None.

All of these make for a highly replayable game with a lot of customization options. In the end-game, your character would have several stats maxxed, but during the game you really have to agonize over every point.

Bloodlines also features Clans (read: Classes), who have their focus on different Ability or Attribute groups and get penalties for others. That's what the numbers in the screenshot above mean. The higher the number in brackets, the more points you can distribute in that group. No number means you can't put any points in it. Since D:OS doesn't have classes, this is not relevant.

Read more about character building in VtM: Bloodlines here:
http://wikicheats.gametrailers.com/Vampire_The_Masquerade:_Bloodlines_-_PC/Character_Building
... or try out the game for some examples.

Excellent points all, we can really only raise points and concerns once things get in depth they are seriously affected by all sorts of matters we don't know about. Do we even know if damage affects a units effectiveness? I'm assuming they don't but it's something that could have a huge impact.

Hi, i am new, but here are a few things i would like to see with the stat system. What i want out of the system is where i CAN have a GOOD reason for taking ANY stat regardless of build. You don't need to design for what is optimal, that materializes on its on.

Currently:

The Melee Combatant on this system looks like it would be happy with Strength, Constitution, Speed, Perception. The Melee Combatant will focus on Strength & Perception for damage, or Constitution and Speed for tanking.

The Ranged Combatant on this system looks like it would be happy with Dexterity and Perception. The ranged combatant does not have to worry to much about combat and thus can invest in being heavy hitting for the team. Constitution and Speed still seem good to invest a little bit in.

The Caster Combatant currently on this system looks like it would be happy with Intelligence, and um nothing else. This is problematic. The other stats it could look at are Constitution and Speed like the Ranged Combatant.

1) Perception is necessary for Magic.

If i want to send out a fireball, i need my perception to both cast it to begin with and after casting it to have it cast in the right location. This means intelligence does not determine a DC, but rather Perception does if you are using the DC system. This immediately fixes the classic problem of quad wizard and linear fighter to some extent.

2) Taking a point of Intelligence gives you options to a "Talent, Feat, Spell, or Whatever"

That is Intelligence could be good to take as anyone, and allows the player to complicate the game as much or as little as they want as the start of the game. (Since you start at Intelligence 5, maybe spend the "5" things you get on passive abilities for ease, or some mix of active abilities like fireball if you want to start off complicated. This adds Intelligence's as being a useful stat for everyone.

3) Concerning Intelligence and Level.

I am pretty sure that this system might have spell damage be based off of level, which i don't really like too much as a concept. I would like characters to be better than other characters at something because their stats and abilities make that so, not level; however, stat over level could cause balancing problems and is not strictly better, and hence a personal preference.

4) Spells and Energy

In lore and books it is common to stumble upon spells requiring energy from the user. That is to do something really awesome like send a fireball you would need to sacrifice some energy, and become more vulnerable for it. You could make spells and abilities cost health, or else wise make an "energy system" as a part of Constitution or another stat. This means that with the previous suggestions that Casters and Ranged may be working with three to four stats to optimize damage and surviving capacities.

5) Strength

You could allow strength to add to armor, that is if you take strength you naturally gain a little tougher. The amount of armor is to be determined (probably pretty small, but still allows a character wanting to hold extra or intimidate not to be hurt too badly). Also allow throwing weapons damage to be used with strength so strength characters have another build/option.

6) Dexterity
You could allow Dexterity to add to defense, that is if you take dexterity you naturally gain a little surviving capacities. The amount of defense is to be determined (probably pretty small, but still allows a character wanting to pick pockets not to be hurt too badly). also allow for daggers and the such to be used with dexterity so dexterity characters have another build/option.

7) Speed
Yeah speed sounds great, good for everyone, and always tempting to speed up the game. Currently speed sounds to be as the best balanced stat idea. This is probably because defense applies to everyone, and then speed boosts anyone in an amount that you can't quantify for combat effectiveness.

Take these ideas with a grain of salt, but they are here so you may look at another angle of attack, another perspective.

TBH the meat of social (and beauty) stuff has no place in (primary) attributes -- especially if you can raise them --, but should be managed (primarily) through traits (and skills), which is the reason I don't particularly care for WoD's systems, even if I appreciate the larger role they grant social interactions compared to D&D's. That said, Charm and Reason do seem very well aligned with their respective stats and Intimidate? Well, I guess Srength is the best fit after all, all things considered.

Critical chance being divorced from stats ATM seems weird and counterintuitive to me. And, well, Dexterity granting a damage bonus to ranged weapons makes no sense, but I guess we've all been trained to expect or at least accept it, so I choose to shrug. And Persuasiveness would fit the description of the Persuasion stat much more and I'm sure there's some word even better suited to it. As it stands it just rubs me the wrong way. Hmm... sticking with the above approach to persuasion stats, maybe have Perception influence Persuasive as the better you can tell the other's reactions, the better you can adjust your approach to persuading them?

Other than these nitpicks? Maybe some details here and there if I were to ponder it some more, but all in all the system seems fine to me.

Anyway, I have seen a max level of 20 mentioned in the KS comments (resulting in a total of 54 stat points, which is yay because it can be divided by the number of stats) and a max level of 11 in here... which is it? Or was the latter just referring to the quickest way to reach the maximum in any particular stat? The replies to the original post make it seem rather unlikely, though.

Agreed, oh so much agreed.

That however is bogus.


1) I'm not 100% sure on that TBH.
2) Very much agreed. At least it isn't a primary attribute, but I really, really hate Luck stats.
3&4) I'm not sure where the disagreement lies as you both seem to say the same and accordingly I agree with both of you.
5) *shrugs* Whatever. I never do it, but if someone wants to, why not? Just don't advertise it to me in-game, i.e. NPC's saying "Come to me if you want to redistribute what you have learned!"
6) Not true. Remember there's also skill points. That said, I prefer level-less and class-less systems, but am fine with level-based and/or class-based systems as well, especially if I control a whole party instead of just one or two characters.
7) A toggle would be easy enough, so stop your majuscule indignation right there.

I'm pretty sure PE divides skill points, not attribute points. The problem I have with this is that it forces you to have a combat-and-social build, not allowing you(r character) to focus on one or the other. I'd argue against it until I'm blue in the face (and in fact did exactly that). In D:OS's case, the way it is now, an increase in a primary stat (in other words (and better terminology): an attribute) causes an auto-increase in what is effectively a skill. Sure, your proposed system seems nice enough and a social skill tree merely influenced by whatever "stats" (and traits) seem appropriate would be great, but I'm fairly okay with the way it is now.

You're talking about a concept I've improved and revised in a later post from myself here. So it doesn't make much sense to discuss this one I think.....

Just so you know, we've read these. We're gonna play around with some changes. The sad part is, we really need talents/traits for these changes to really work. More later. Still, thanks so much for the input. It was certainly not wasted and this is FUN to read. I'm not kidding.

Looking forward to those changes!

Anyway, continuing with my post above, I'd like to try and translate the Bloodlines system to Original Sin. I'm going to change some names or mechanics, but will try to give my reason for some of those changes later.

Feats

Feats have a direct influence on gameplay. Most checks in the game are made against these Feats. Each Feat is derived from 1 Attribute and 1 Ability Score. They are divided into four groups: Combat, Survival, Mental and Resist. Combat feats obviously focus on combat skills, Survival feats on worldly matters, Mental feats on Dialogue skills, Lore and Magic, and Resist on damage mitigation.

• Combat
  • Melee (STR + Melee): Modifies damage when using melee weapons
  • Ranged (PER + Ranged): Modifies damage done using ranged weapons
  • Initiative (COU + Reaction): Determines turn order in combat
  • Defense (DEX + Dodge): Improves chance to avoid taking damage from all forms of combat
  • Speed (Armor type): Increases walk speed during combat
• Survival
  • Awareness (PER + Wildlife): Improves ability to detect monsters that can't be seen (yet)
  • Inspection (PER + Investigation): Improves chance to spot hidden objects and passages
  • Thievery (DEX + Thievery): Improves ability to open locked doors and chests and grants the ability to disarm traps
  • Sneaking (DEX + Stealth): Reduces chance to be spotted while hiding
  • Luck (Items): Increases chance to get lucky
• Mental
  • Intimidate (STR + Intimidation): Improves ability to force people into agreeing with you
  • Charm (APP + Suberfuge): Improves ability to use your appearance to your advantage
  • Persuade (CHR + Scholarship): Improves ability to convince others to agree with you
  • Magic (INT + Source): Modifies power of magic spells and/or lowers mana cost
  • Lore (WIS + Scholarship): Improves ability to identify items, flora and fauna
• Resist
  • Bashing (CON + Armor): Reduces damage suffered from blunt damage types
  • Lethal (Armor): Reduces damage suffered from slashing or piercing weapons
  • Elemental (Armor): Reduces damage taken from fire, electricity and other elemental damage
  • Mind (COU + ?): Reduces effect of spells and effects on the mind
  • Poison (CON + ?): Reduces damage and effects suffered from poison

Attributes

Attributes are your classic main stats like STR and INT. They are broadly divided into three groups following the LMK principle: Warrior, Mage, Rogue. Or in Divinity terms: Ways of the Warrior, Wizard and Survivor. Attributes make up one half of a Feat and usually affect more than one Feat.

• Way of the Warrior
  • Strength: Adds +1 to Melee and Intimidate
  • Constitution: Adds +1 to Resist Bashing and Resist Poison
  • Courage: Adds +1 Initiative and Resist Mind
• Way of the Wizard
  • Intelligence: Adds +1 to Magic
  • Wisdom: Adds +1 to Lore
  • Charisma: Adds +1 to Persuade
• Way of Survivor
  • Dexterity: Adds +1 to Thievery and Defense
  • Perception: Adds +1 to Ranged, Awareness and Inspection
  • Appearance: Adds +1 to Charm

Abilities

Abilities make up the second half of a Feat. They are divided into three groups: Talents, Skills and Knowledges. Talents are physical abilities, Skills are technical abilities and Knowdledges are learned mental abilities.

• Talents
  • Reaction: Adds +1 to Initiative
  • Dodge: Adds +1 to Defense
  • Intimidation: Adds +1 to Intimidate
  • Subterfuge: Adds +1 to Charm
• Skills
  • Ranged: Adds +1 to Ranged
  • Melee: Adds +1 to Melee
  • Thievery: Adds +1 to Thievery
  • Stealth: Adds +1 to Sneaking
  • Knowledges
  • Investigation: Adds +1 to Inspection
  • Wildlife: Adds +1 to Awareness
  • Source: Adds +1 to Magic
  • Scholarship: Adds +1 to Lore and Persuade

Examples
Let's try and see what stats popular archetypes might like to have:

Warrior: STR, CON, COU, Melee, Intimidation, Reaction, Dodge; can Intimidate
Rogue: DEX, PER, APP, Subterfuge, Thievery, Stealth, Investigation or Dodge; can Charm
Wizard: INT, WIS, CHR, Source, Lore, Persuade, Scholarship; can Persuade
Ranger: PER, WIS, DEX, Ranged, Wildlife, Stealth, Investigation or Dodge; no dialogue skill

Comments

Speed
Speed could be based on Armor type (PC) and race (enemies) -- Light Armor lets you move faster than Heavy Armor; wolves move faster than bears. If it were an attribute, I fear it could dominate all others.

Luck
Not too thrilled about this stat from a gameplay perspective, but if it's in, it might be a good idea to treat it not as a percentage ("You have a xx percentage to be successfull) but like any other Feat to check against. "If your luck is high enough, you will be successful in this situation."

Offense/Defense
Check of Ranged/Melee/Magic against Resistances.

Morale (Party Spirit)
Increases Resist Mind + other bonuses. Could be a global value that changes according to circumstances, similar to Humanity in Bloodlines, or the characters' relationship.

Magic system
In Bloodlines, each character got access to three spells, which have to be increased with Exp points just like any other attribute or ability. In Original Sin, we seem to have lots of skills/spells like in Divine Divinity -- so I'd decouple the stats system above from the skill/magic system and let players increase skills/spells on their own.

HP / Energy Pool
How about ... same for everyone. Warriors get a lot more mitigation through skills and armor than wizards, who would in return need less Energy to cast spells. Skill cost could be reduced likewise for physical stats.

Seeing / Hearing
- Seing is incorporated into Inspection. "Sight range" I would set to a comfortable level for every player, as I don't think it's a very good skill, because most of the it's too low for everyone, meaning the skill would become mandatory and in other words superfluous. I'd much rather see sight range be used creatively to create tension where appropriate.
- Hearing changed to Awareness: notice enemies you can't necessarily see (yet).

Other attributes that could be interesting, but which I couldn't really fit in: Intuition, Wits.

Okay, UP to next Stretch Goal of $ 650.000 !!

And then the "sad" thing melt like sun rays on a ice mountain ... euhmm ...

Is this crystal ice clear or ... ?

i like this idea,, would help prevent mages from having single stat amd make perception slightly more useful for 1 build, th ough id still like to see perception with a few more benefis

One idea I have is to lower the "minimum cap" of attributes at character creation. Right now if I understand it, new characters start with 5 points in all 6 attributes that are fixed and unremoveable and 5 points to distribute.

As I've pointed out, for a fighter, they're looking at no fewer than 3 attributes that they must spread those 5 point between: STR, PER, and either SPD (to be an evasion-fighter) or CON (to tank). If they want to cast spells to take advantage of the magic combo system, add INT to that list.

To help, maybe let players re-allocate at least one of the 5 "fixed" points from their starting stats. That could help pure fighters, by letting them sacrifice points in Dexterity and Intelligence that aren't going to do them much good, and letting them be put elsewhere that's more useful. Maybe put a cap of 10 into any stat at character creation to prevent excess point stacking, if that's a concern.