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Ok, my personal take on this, I have to agree with Kein here.
Now this is not aimed at the OP specifically, but I do find it odd that people come into a “Fantasy” game and complain about a naked belly, a partially bare arm and slight cleavage.
I see these complaints all over the place where artwork or in game visuals in, again a “Fantasy” game is slightly revealing… and I mean slightly here.
Yes I am aware that it may not be “realistic” but then I’m not going play this game or another “Fantasy” game for realism .
If you look at any Dungeon & Dragons artwork or Fantasy design, you will see a certain pattern of revealing armor and clothing, a lot of the time on the male as well. It’s really not meant to be sexist, it’s just part of the genre and the artist’s depiction of fantastical places / people.
Personally I think the open belly armor on the female looked fine. It’s also a way for the artist to show you have a butt kicking mage/warrior/fighter who is also a “woman” not just a brute otherwise, you just have this androgynous image that looks rather boring.
Now if this was being advertised as a Disney game or movie, then I could understand the criticism, but could never wrap my head around it for this.

Quoting For Truth.

Fact is women like to feel sexy just as much as men like to feel badass, as such the original art wasn't just pandering to drooling male gamers but also to an assumed "standard" (or "stereotype") which is just as likely to not apply to your specific case for men and women alike (at leas *I* can't identify with mr. Hulk on the cover art).

But for some reason the female case is sexist while the male isn't, double standards much?

- Female with armor : "I'd have wanted her to look sexier, this tin is just not fitting her. What's this modern stereotype that females should absolutely look like males, that characters should be genderless ? I blame you Larian ! Make a bikini armor !"
- Female with bikini armor : "Oh gross, that's so disgustingly sexist ! Women are not sex objects, ffs ! I blame you Larian ! Cover this belly and add scars instead !"
- Male looking tough : "So sexist, not all men have to look like a rock with pikes ! What a stupid design, I blame you Larian ! Make him look like the average Joe !"
- Male not looking tough : "Damn is this man gay ! What game is that, DmC II ? What about you dress him with a pink robe ? I blame you Larian, give this mikado muscles !

No matter what you do, there'll always be people to complain about it, in the end. So, if I were Larian, I would do as I please. If they want an ostensible-belly for their female character, it's their choice. Moreover, it's not like she looked almost naked.
Both designs, the older and the newer, are ok, but to be honest I didn't think a second about the female looking "sexy", be it because of her belly or anything else (I must be weird, but pixels don't attract me in any ways).
No offence OP but thinking of whether to buy or not a game because of such an insignificant thing is... Over-reacting, I think.
Hopefully, there'll be more armors than just this piece.

Where did this people come from? There are so many games with real sexism to criticize this one. But also women love to show themselves, dressing fashion and wearing bikinis in real life! Google “cosplay” and prepare to be amazed.

I'm going to address a lot of points but I'll try to keep everything concise.

Firstly, I am a woman who was put off, concerned and disappointed by the lack of clothing on the original design of the female character. I speak only for myself and my experience as a woman and not for women as a whole.

The reason I'm uncomfortable with the lack of armor is because it makes me feel like the developers would rather sell a game based on sex appeal rather than make a game where men and women are treated like humans.



There are some women who are comfortable wearing more revealing clothing, and there are those who are not comfortable. I am very proud of my body, but when I wear mini skirts or bikinis or the like I feel exposed rather than sexy. I feel sexier wearing clothes I am comfortable in. I have always wanted to cosplay but there are very few options for me as a woman to choose from that I could feel at ease in. There are also many women who feel obligated to wear these types of clothes, or portray themselves in this type of way because as gamers, they want to feel accepted and sexy. This is not the only way to be sexy, but it often times feels like it for women because we are so bombarded with it every day of our lives.



I want to play a character that looks badass just as much as men want to play a character that looks badass. I don't really care if my character is “sexy,” I'm sure some women do, and I'm sure some men like it better if the women look sexier, the same as some women like it better when male characters look sexier.

I'm going to point out that even with the new armor, she is as unrealistic looking as the man. While some men and some women can get to those proportions, most people can't, for both genders. Personally, for me, I don't mind the unrealistic proportions, because I don't want to be playing a game with normal people, I play games to escape reality and go on adventure and learn new things. But I don't play games to stare at a woman's midriff or breasts the whole time. There are games out there for this sort of thing if you're into that. And I want the focus to be on the story, not making the characters sexy, unless that is related to the story.

The original character model has been called badass and feminine. It's been said that people can't see it as sexist. And it's been said that it's not as bad as other things in existence. It has also been said that it offends some women and some men, it makes them uncomfortable and reluctant in buying the game.

The new character model basically eliminates the latter part of that concern. If changing her to wear a bit more armor does nothing to the playing style of the game, wouldn't it be better to make women as comfortable in playing the character rather than scaring them off?



Just because there are more sexist things out there doesn't mean that we can't fight to make games less sexist in general. Especially with an open developer who is willing to listen to its fan base. This is where things change, if developers who are less open see profits from developers who are willing to stand against the stereotype, then they might be more willing to change in the future. It all has to start somewhere. A popular game is a great place to be progressive.



Two things

1. Just because things have always been this way doesn't mean they are correct, and it doesn't mean they shouldn't or can't change in the future.

2. More importantly. The Fantasy genre in particular has been run by male developers since its creation. With male perspectives and male audiences being the main concern for most games in development. Things are starting to change slowly, with Laura Croft being a good example. And if you want to count them, Mass Effect and Dragon Age (1&2) female character choices. But even with these changes toward pro female attitudes there is still a heavy underline of “women don't play games and men won't play games with women in them.” The game Remember Me was told to drop their female lead because “...that's not going to succeed. You can't have a female character in games. It has to be a male character, simple as that.” (http://penny-arcade.com/report/arti...-to-facebook-and-why-its-protagonist-had)
This attitude needs to change. And by making positive female characters, it will prove to these publishers that it will sell, and that they'll gain a new audience and stop offending and excluding so many people.



I honestly think that the change has absolutely nothing to do with “whining” and more to do with respect. Which women haven't gotten a lot of in this industry. And it is commendable that Lorian is respecting its female fans.

First of all, let me tell you about offended people:




Second, it wasn't Larian decision until few complainers appeared (thanks to them we now have a chance to ger new Dragon Age II: Original Sin) and started to whine, and whine very loud, stating how offended they are by the game they NEVER heard a day ago. I'm pretty sure they never heard about Larian as well. What are you saying, I'm pissed that this game now being made for them? Really? Yes I-fucking-am and it is damn obvious. I'm quite mad and angry. And I'm pretty much obvious about it. Glad you noticed. Too bad no one taking into account what I or some other people want because, you see, we aren't offended. May be we should be, then we can be heard?

Don't tell me what to do.


They did. They did as they wanted it (guess why the concept and art existed in a first place?) to do as they want until complainers appeared. Problem is that with Kickstarter their freedom ended. It is a doom of Kickstarter, unfortunately.


Never was personally, more in general. I do frequent these forums a lot since 2009? I'm aware of all the content being discussed and posted in these sections I visit. And this topic appeared a lot, even in the threads it does not belong to.
It is not something specific or in particular, it is something that scattered around here and there, but overall makes a big difference in the picture.



Well, ain't that convenient and right in time? I noticed there is a lot of account was made in last month, some of them are really newcomers. And some just posted once or twice in the threads with such subject and for some reason never posted anywhere again. Like, you know, everything else about the game does not bother them.

Not that I'm trying to imply anything, just interesting observation.

Uhm convenient? I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

I joined the forums looking to thank Larian for considering changing the armor. I found that this post had already been made so I contributed to it. I have just discovered this game on the kickstarter. I had heard of divinity before but had never looked into it before the kickstarter. I know only what the opening video of the kickstarter campaign told me about the game, and this was the only concern I had so far upon seeing it. I have nothing else to discuss as I haven't seen the game.

There were many accounts made in the last month because the developers at Larian launched a public funding campaign and urged those people to join the forums and contribute to the conversations about the game. Thus, that's what I did. Recently.

Kein, you're complaining about people judging the game by its cover art. Has the irony escaped you? You're doing the exact same thing - judging the game ruined because Larian changed the cover art slightly.

Are you upset because Larian has said you can play both characters as any gender? Is that supposed to be a surprise? Because every single previous Larian RPG has let you play as any gender.


Why are you so amazed that people are suddenly showing up to post about the game. Well, duh. That's because people are suddenly hearing about the game. I do believe that getting people who have not heard of the game was kinda the entire POINT of Larian doing that big five-week press tour.

You think that just because you were here longer means that your opinion should be the only one that counts? Good for you, you've been following the game for a while. But Maria Newbposter's $39.99 is worth just as much as Bob Oldbeard's $39.99. This forum is here for all who have an interest in Larian games, whether that interest is 10 years old or 10 minutes old.


Have you considered that maybe Larian changed the design not because they lack vision, but because they have the vision to see a different point of view than their own?

Second, it wasn't Larian decision until few complainers appeared

Larian was going to have a keyword dialog system (to prevent the screen turning into more of a wall of text), until a bunch of whiners complained they they wanted full dialog options. Don't you just wish people like that would shut up and stop making Larian ruin the game by adding extra dialog? That's not what Larian wanted to do (they were going to see how the alpha/beta tests went first, since in their experience people who didn't like that style were won over after trying the game).

There are even people whining about Zandalor's lack of a beard, wanting to force Larian to change their decision on that.


What are you saying, I'm pissed that this game now being made for them? Really? Yes I-fucking-am and it is damn obvious. I'm quite mad and angry.

It was known that the armour actually in the game was realistic before Larian changed the cover art used to promote the game. The game itself didn't change in this regard.


guess why the concept and art existed in a first place?

Well... not to set the design in stone, so that nothing about the game could change from what was depicted.

At least until one of them notices the DVD version collector's edition starting in the $95 tier...

Why stop with the PC? There's an NPC called Astarte, spirit of the source, in a more revealing outfit.

The promotional poster is the tip of the iceberg. Haven't you people considered that there is a plethora of armors/robes in-game that haven't undergone your perusal? How sure are you that you've accomplished your goals by having a poster changed?

Did it ever occur to any of you, that with all those choices for armors and robes in the game, you might find an appropriate design that satisfies your needs? If Larian released info of an armor set available in-game that is in every sense practical (not a bikini armor) will that be enough? Will it be enough to know that you as a player had a choice what to wear?

How much of a game breaker would it be if one of the 3d artists created a sexy armor set just for kicks? Would the existence of that one, single set ruin the whole game even if you had the option not to wear it?

Did it escape everyone that with all the freedom the game designers are aiming to give the player, they would at least give you the freedom what to wear? No, really, did everyone think that the PC will be wearing a single outfit all throughout the game (specifically that one on the poster)?

I realize that this is an exceptionally long post, and I have tried to break it up as much as possible to avoid the wall-of-text. The first section is for general clarification, which I hope everyone involved in this conversation will read. The rest is in response to individual users and comments.

First of all, I did not come here to whine or affect a desired change. Perhaps my original post was unclear. I created this thread to show my appreciation to the developers of D:OS for making a decision that made me significantly more comfortable contributing to the creation of this game. At this point, I think their community team also deserves praise for allowing this discussion, which has a history of turning flamey everywhere online, to continue.

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I really want to clarify what the issue of sexism is here. I'm not concerned about everyone who ever plays this game being able to fully identify with the characters they control. These are not your avatars. You will be roleplaying as a particular person, whose personality you will have a great deal of control over. What I am concerned about is the distinct difference in the way the characters are displayed in the banner: one is sexualized, the other is not.

We'll talk about a double standard when the majority of game covers featuring men show them shirtless, with rippling muscles, and tight pants that clearly outline their nine-inch penises. This is the level of sexualization we're talking about here. It's not that the woman in the picture has a figure that fits a particular aesthetic ideal; it's that the outfit in the banner does nothing but sexualize that figure. The man's body is clearly muscular and large, with broad shoulders: this fits an aesthetic ideal. His armor is not torn open below the shoulders to display his manly biceps, nor is he wearing a half-open codpiece. There is an important distinction to be made between the aesthetics of design and the aspects of a character that we emphasize.

Not one person has said that something has been lost from the character based on the design change. The new armor does not make her look less like a woman or more brutish to me. Does she look androgynous or hulking on the home page to you now? Do you feel less interested or less welcome to play this game and participate in its community because of the new armor design?

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Individual, personal responses below.


J747L, if you look at my previous comments, you'll notice that I said I don't have a problem with a variety of styles of clothing for a variety of purposes existing in the game. My problem is that cover art of this nature serves to presumably attract male attention, while genuinely and actively alienating women. As I mentioned at the top of this post, I see no other benefit to the exposed armor over the covered version.

Also, based on the way the devs at Larian talk about their game, I'd imagine a designer creating a set of "sexy armor" would be a practical item that has an effect on the game itself, potentially boosting charisma in exchange for abysmal defense, or altering exchanges with characters of the same or opposite gender. This is about the developers sending a particular message, intentionally or not, and what they really want to say.

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theBlackDragon, the problem is that your juxtaposition of sexiness and badassness is inherently flawed. Sexiness is a matter of attractiveness, a matter of appealing to the opposite sex. Badassness has to do with power, the ability to handle any situation. Men and women both value their ability to appeal to the opposite sex, just as they both value independence and personal power. The issue is that women, especially in games, are constantly idealized in terms of their sexiness, while men are idealized for their power. It's not okay to do it just because women enjoy being sexy; you're essentially claiming that the most important and valuable aspect of their personhood is their attractiveness. Do you see the problem? I have no complaints about attractive character models or the existence of armor that emphasizes those traits; they have a valid place in stories (see above).

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Kein, please understand that this is not meant as a personal attack. I am trying to work through understanding your perspective, because I believe that for every participant in this conversation, there are many others who feel something similar. Please correct me if at any point you disagree with or do not believe the things that I have the impression you believe. I think you misunderstand a few things about the nature of this project and the Kickstarter campaign, which I think are worth clarifying.

You seem to be mostly upset that what was an insular, homogenous community is now being flooded with more diverse perspectives and opinions. I'm not sure what you thought was going to happen after Larian sought publicity and launched a Kickstarter campaign. The thing is, they seem to want many people to know about and play this game because they love it so much. Your love for this game, which is clear from your passionate response to this discussion, seems to be of a more selfish nature; you seem to want this game to be made for you, and for only people like you to care about it and play it. If the developers at Larian shared your perspective, I do not believe they would have turned to crowdsourcing, or asked repeatedly for the input of their Kickstarter backers. Larian has made it clear that they want this to be an inclusive, community-oriented undertaking.

You also seem to believe that they have ceded some measure of control over the shape of their game by launching a Kickstarter. The point of crowdfunding is to avoid that very thing; rather than giving creative control to a producer or venture capitalists, small studios can share their passion and dreams with a larger community and ask them to contribute to creating something special. No one can threaten to pull their funding because they dislike the direction of the game in three months. The only thing I am entitled to by contributing is the list of rewards for the tier at which I backed the project. That is all.

Larian may respond to the comments of backers in the hope of generating additional funding, or simply because they discover something worthwhile in another perspective, but that is a choice made by the developers every single time it happens. It doesn't matter if they do it in response to users in the forums here, who may or may not have backed the project, or comments on the Kickstarter itself. The developers choose what to make of their game. Not me. Not the handful of others posting in this thread. Not the other 10,000+ backers.

I think it's great that they want to make a game for a larger community and take their thoughts into consideration in so many areas. Larian has been amazingly open and inclusive since the start of their campaign. Once again, this is something they have chosen to do. Whatever problem you have with this is a problem with the developers at Larian, not the people who have taken them up on their invitation to contribute to the game. No manner of whining can force them to do anything; even if they didn't make the funding goal and couldn't expand the game the way they want to, this game would still be made. This Kickstarter has less impact on their lives and creative potential than most do, and I imagine the developers are fully capable of ignoring all of us if there is an aspect of the game that is simply off-limits for discussion.

All of this aside, I would actually like to know your opinion. If you do, in fact, have a serious reason for which the game's cover art should feature an exposed stomach and breasts, I would love to hear it.

I have considered that there will be other armors in the game. I’m perfectly content and happy with other armors in the game if I have a choice, some being practical, impractical, and even revealing. What one does inside the game, if they want that to get their rocks off, that’s fine by me.

My concern is for the portrayal of the main cover art. The main cover art explicitly tells me is how the game is going to treat their characters inside the game. At least, more often than not it does. I’ve been proven wrong on a rare case, but usually, if a partially revealed woman is on the cover, it usually means that women will be treated how they usually are in video games, as side characters serving the main male character, as damsels, or just as a piece of ass for a man to play behind so he doesn’t have to look at a male’s ass, etc.

The cover art tells me who this game is for. For instance, Bioshock Infinite, very well could have had Elizabeth on the cover, since she is a huge part of the story, standing alongside the male protagonist, but it doesn’t because the common perception is that men won’t play a game with a main female character and women aren’t going to pick up the game anyway.

If the cover is respectable to women, then they know that they too are invited to come play and that they will not feel demeaned or belittled inside. That’s not always the case either, but it’s a better way to advertise that you don’t hate women by putting positive figures on the cover.

Oh please! Are you suggesting that every girl who wears a bikini is because is too dumb to counteract social pressures? And you are the only one capable to think by yourself? My girlfriend loves to use bikinis and miniskirts, she also plays Champions Online and when I entered the game she was wearing a revealing outfit. Girls wants to be sexy at the same that boys wants to be strong, maybe they aren't the best stereotypes to follow but is what we like.



Double standard? Hate women? I don’t understand you people! Boys and girls like to see muscular boys and sexy girls in their games and girls didn’t feel more pressured to look sexy than boys to be stronger, this is not good or bad, is only instinctive, I think this discussion is turning ridiculous... good bye and good luck.

I just want to say how bad the females and "protective" males in this thread that are complaining about a little flesh showing are not only making yourselves look at best shut ins and at worst controlling bastards... How dare you claim that celebrating that female body in tasteful and pretty clothing is hateful against women?!?!?

As a female gamer I don't get this.. and rarely do I see it. Most women WANT pretty clothes on their toons no matter how hardcore they are a gamer. I have played with women who refuse to play certain classes because of the armor available(meaning they usually plays clothies because of their pretty dresses ect). They will NOT play a character who wears a lot of armor.

Their are armor choices in games FOR A REASON.. so ALL can find something they like and HELL!! Have you seen screenshots of this game? Its not like you are going to be looking at her butt all day.. I think people just have to find SOMETHING to complain about.. Why can't you just be supportive and happy for this great game coming out by a great company?

Isn't that the real issue here? We don't have classes in the game, can develop our characters like we want, yet the protagonists both look like warriors. I want to play a slender guy in a robe with a staff and call him Milamber. Or a slender, agile guy in leather armor with a bow who goes by the name of Martin. I can't identify much with a muscled brute if I invest in something other than STR and melee combat.

Dress code, build of body and state of mind play a role too, in RPGs.

Well you're stuck with Thomas, I'm sorry but at least you have your elven damsel ... erm nevermind me.

Exactly this and I, being a man, I love girls/women the way they're wearing clothes they like most & feel comfortable in, sexy or not.
My girlfirend never wearing "sexy"(in the eyes of most people & the sex industry is called it "sexy") clothes, but o I find her most attractive & sexy with "her" clothes she love to wear most of the time !


Indeed, I love it to escape a few hours from reality and play a rpg ful of fantasy & magical moments, and so on ...
As for the "sexy" thing : I mostly play with a FEmale character because I like it to see a nice looking woman walking in the gameworld, sexy or not, I like both and I'm sure the devs of Larian Studios will including ALL KIND of gear, sure they do

Exactly & respect is an important thing never to forget ! And, I know for sure that not the whole Larian Team are men only !

I know you said you're leaving this thread be, but I want to clarify to anyone else who might have misunderstood what I was trying to say because I didn't realize that it could be taken this way, and had no intention for it to sound this way.

I do not in any way think that many women who enjoy wearing a bikini are too dumb to counteract social pressures. I know women who are very comfortable wearing tight and revealing clothing, they are happy with how they look, and they feel sexy and great in those clothing. I'm happy that they feel sexy in those types of clothes. I was trying to say that I DON'T feel sexy in those types of clothes. They make me feel exposed instead of sexy. I was also trying to say that I know some women who do not feel good in bikinis but wear them anyway because they're trying to look sexy for other people. They do it because they feel obligated, and told by society that that's what men want. I'm in NO WAY saying that women can't want to wear those clothes, but I am saying society expects you to want to wear those clothes whether or not you feel sexy in them.



I feel like you haven’t been reading all the posts. I do not want your choices in the game to go away, I DO NOT want to say celebrating the female body is distasteful and hateful to women. I want you to celebrate women and men’s bodies in your own game however you want. Play whatever kind of character you want in your own game.

But, the cover art is a different issue. The cover art represents what a games take on what choices and story development in the game is going to be. It’s the initial perception of the game that matters, what the developers want their game to represent to the community at large before you go in and play with your character designs, etc. The cover art should be both appealing to men and women, and not all women want a half naked woman. That’s not sexy to everyone. It definitely SHOULD BE an option in the game, but it should not be what’s represented on the box so it doesn’t make some women feel unwanted. Because whether you have the opinion or not, some women are uncomfortable by this, and we should make it inviting to everyone, so they all get to play a great game.