Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity - Original Sin - General Thank you, Larian

When the Kickstarter first launched, my girlfriend and I immediately backed for two copies. The game looks and sounds fantastic, and we were both glad to be a part of it.

The problem for us has been the implied style of the game regarding male and female armor. Specifically, the Kickstarter video cover used to be the same as the banner at the top of this page (armor for the male character, bare midriff and partially exposed breasts for the female character). It's still partly visible as the background of the main video during the split-screen segments.

We were both uncomfortable with backing a project that displayed such a strong gender bias, and had been deciding whether or not to pull our funding before the end of the campaign.

Today, you made our choice for us. I was checking on how well the Kickstarter was doing today, and noticed the new video cover. The style fits perfectly; without having the banner here for comparison, I would've thought it had always been like that. The woman looks just as agile and deadly as she did originally, and now seems to be more concerned with having her stomach intact than appealing to male gamers. Immersion +10, sexism -30. I hope the banner here will be following suit soon.

So, thank you. You made our choice easy, and we're proud to be part of making Divinity: Original Sin the game you want it to be.

I know what you mean. I'd kind of like a T-shirt as an add-on, but don't think I'd wear the current design (if it was a black shirt with the new armour, and maybe moved the name to the back with a smaller logo, it would be an instant add).


Welcome to the forum.

This again?

Well, I hadn't noticed the change myself, and I frankly think its pretty stupid.

Note, though, that I could understand some people getting irritated by this matter. But honestly, I believe there are much more important things regarding sexism when approaching game development. Things as women being always depicted as fragile objects to be rescued, guarded, and so on. What makes women mere objects of desire in a game is not a cover showing clevage: is the game developing a woman character that only serves as a beatiful think to look at.

Oh please! Seriously? Wait a minute, I've got the perfect plot...

What makes women mere objects of desire in a game is not a cover showing clevage:

I once bought a book (on sale) called Chicks in Chainmail, with the cover art that you'd expect given the name. It was actually a pretty good collection of short stories about strong female warriors, but if that cover art had been on a book with a serious name, I wouldn't have picked it up to look at the description on the back. Similarly, if I'm standing in front of a whole isle of books, and the cover art on one has a guy with his shirt off and hair blowing in the wind, I'm not checking the description to make sure it is a romance novel, I'm going to assume it is (since that is what the publisher chose to present it as) and keep browsing.

She still has a bare belly on the forum homepage....

WHUT THE FUCK IS THIS?

Ohmygod you are right
Larian forums must be banned and closed until further investigation.

reported.

I like her new outfit on the kickstarter page. It says: "Yeah I know how to party, but kicking ass comes first."

...

Okay.

Zerael, I agree wholeheartedly that there are more significant and damaging instances of sexism in game development; however, cover art is generally indicative of a studio's overall goals and feelings about the types of characters they are going to be portraying. When there is no practical benefit* for armor design decisions, those decisions are being made on the basis of their appeal to male gamers (and/or animators). My point was simply that the decision to alter her armor to something more practical seems indicative of an overall design philosophy that I am happy to support.

I also agree with you about what does matter in game development. The single most important thing developers can do regarding gender issues is to portray men and women as equals. (Note that I am referring to the overall portrayal and treatment of gender in a game - this is not to say that every female npc must be as strong or heroic as the strongest and most heroic male npc. A woman can be weak, just a man can; the problems arises when a gender is overall treated as less capable and less self-sufficient.) The problem is that equality of ability does not remove the potential for all other inequalities. Even if female characters have the same stats and abilities as male characters, defaulting to that type of armor sends a clear message. Women are there to look desirable under all circumstances; scarred, unattractive, and heavily armored men can be found in most fantasy games as protagonists or at least a type of "good guy," whereas women are not only animated to be attractive in almost all circumstances, but dressed provocatively.



*Armor that maximizes exposed skin is impractical and unreasonable; if there were legitimate benefits to it in terms of agility and protection, you would find male characters of smaller builds with similar options. Instead, agility-based armor for male thieves and rogues is almost exclusively dark leather and cloth that covers most of the skin. I don't necessarily have any objection to the inclusion of outfits that are designed to have an impact on social interactions, particularly in a game like D:OS, but that does not seem to be the purpose of the armor shown in the banner. They both seem prepared for battle, not manipulation or haggling.

Honestly, I think you are making a big deal out of nothing. You are also missing what is probably the main reason for how the characters look.

You think the man has a more pragmatic armor, which is ludicrous. He has horns on his shoulders...you know how stupid this is for actual battle? He is portrayed in this way because he looks badass. That is all.

The point is: the characters were drawn to look cool, and they both _do_. You play the sexist card on the woman, and someone may do the same for the man. Personally, I prefer male characters that look agile, rather than those with heavy armor and burly build/face. There is no reason for a man to necessarily look this way, and I think it furthers the stereotype of what a man needs to look like...well, I don't really think this, but someone could easily make this argument.

You have your right to say you don't like how she is dressed, but calling it sexist is plain wrong. It is a direct attack on the developers, and on those who actually like that type of character design.

I don't particularly love half-naked characters...but I like characters that don't overdo the "pure strength" look. I think she looks like a badass regardless of showing a bit of the belly. I'll probably be playing her, since I like agile-looking characters. If she was wearing a huge armor like him, they would be the same character.

I dislike this type of comment..it's like people calling the books "Dune" sexist. Confuses me to no end, when all my favorite characters end up being female for how badass they are.

Main point: The characters are both drawn to look "cool" and for no other purpose. Neither is a pragmatic design.

Tbh, mbf, the woman still looks pretty "cool" and badass with complete armor as well, and, personally, makes me think of her less as a sex object. Which I think is the point.

You're absolutely right that the male character's armor is impractical. My problem with the original female armor is the reasoning behind the design decision. The male character is unbalanced with heavy spikes that serve no purpose because it makes him look badass. The female character has exposed skin because it makes her look sexy. For reference, look at their ridiculous belts. Totally different, completely impractical, and they both look cooler for them.

Look at what you're saying: "I think she looks like a badass regardless of showing a bit of the belly." Based solely on their (very detailed) faces, these characters are both supposed to be powerful and awesome. Doesn't it seem like the armor design should match the rest of the portrayal of the character, instead of being something that they're badass "regardless of?"

I'm not a fan of the muscle-bound, walking-mountain look either, but that is a valid design decision because it's based on making the character look more threatening and powerful, not increasing sex appeal. I don't want her to wear a copy of his armor, or a version that fits a different armor class but maintains the same aesthetics. I want her armor to be something that is cool without maximizing exposed skin, instead of being cool in spite of that. The change they made couldn't be more perfect, in my opinion. Her style is completely different from the male character's, she doesn't look encumbered, and she looks awesome.

I'll say that I liked both version of her armor. Sure in the first edition she was more "naked" but at least she got more cloth than most "bikini armor" we could see, which are almost or totally outrageous. It wasn't that bad for D:OS. I didn't say perfect nor ok, I just said they didnt go overboard and they changed it when people asked. They are a great team and I saw no bad intention from them.

But I like the discussion we have here and her new look. Actually, I dont care that much what happen in development if it doesnt go into excess. No need to make her a nun nor a stripper. Don't know if you can keep a "sexy" option like blood and gore in the options

The most important thing is that female gamers get to play the game, love it and have fun with it. Their voice is the most important part of this discussion.

to the OP

Have you tried Sacred 2? Given your post, I strongly suggest that game. Seriously, I promise you'll have a great time in their forums.

Man, I loved these forums.
Until Kickstarter happened.

(where is my hipster glasses)

Rent Serenity, my point is to outline the unwarranted attack based on an opinion. You thought of her as a "sex object", I didn't even consider it until I read this. I still like the character design. Granted, I wouldn't mind her having more clothes, which goes to Amalthir's point.

That is my personal opinion, which is just that...other people might like the older character design better. Whether full clothes fits her "better" is up to the opinions of each. Playing the "sexist" card, however, is unwarranted; a double standard at best.

This happens too often nowadays, but I'll leave further examples for a different forum.
I'll leave it at that.

True.
Too bad due to excessive whining the design was (and will be more surely) already changed to calm down that whining. And now the opinion of one party does not matter and nobody cares about them.

That is the problem.

Kein, stop being so damn obnoxious.

There's no reason to throw a crapfit at people who are complaining. It's not your call to decide what other people should be offended by. It's not your place to decide if changing the cover art would be "selling out" and bending at the whims of anyone. It's Larian's call to decide what complaints are valid, and how they want to react to them.