TBH the meat of social (and beauty) stuff has no place in (primary) attributes -- especially if you can raise them --, but should be managed (primarily) through traits (and skills), which is the reason I don't particularly care for WoD's systems, even if I appreciate the larger role they grant social interactions compared to D&D's. That said, Charm and Reason do seem very well aligned with their respective stats and Intimidate? Well, I guess Srength is the best fit after all, all things considered.
Critical chance being divorced from stats ATM seems weird and counterintuitive to me. And, well, Dexterity granting a damage bonus to ranged weapons makes no sense, but I guess we've all been trained to expect or at least accept it, so I choose to shrug. And Persuasiveness would fit the description of the Persuasion stat much more and I'm sure there's some word even better suited to it. As it stands it just rubs me the wrong way. Hmm... sticking with the above approach to persuasion stats, maybe have Perception influence Persuasive as the better you can tell the other's reactions, the better you can adjust your approach to persuading them?
Other than these nitpicks? Maybe some details here and there if I were to ponder it some more, but all in all the system seems fine to me.
Anyway, I have seen a max level of 20 mentioned in the KS comments (resulting in a total of 54 stat points, which is yay because it can be divided by the number of stats) and a max level of 11 in here... which is it? Or was the latter just referring to the quickest way to reach the maximum in any particular stat? The replies to the original post make it seem rather unlikely, though.
I hope constitution bonus is retroactive. I HATE when you have a stat that yields less when you spec later into it. I feel forced to spec into constitution early, just to get the most out of it. Or just make level independent, and 1 constitution = flat hp increase.
Agreed, oh so much agreed.
Armor:
Not receiving ANY damage seems odd. It should at least deal 1 damage imo. When someone hits me with a sword, it hurts, even if it's just a tiny bit.
That however is bogus.
On the subject of stats proposed in kickstarter update.
1. I will try to argue that perception is unnecessary.
Chance of successful hit can be determined by speed and dexterity(with different weights based on weapon you're using).
Sight and hearing can be determined by constitution(which is a health stat so it seems obvious).
Discovering traps and finding treasures and secrets should not be stats based in my opinion. Divine Divinity and Divinity II showed that it's possible.
2. Luck(secondary stat) can be removed.
I never understood this stat and do not know anyone depending on it. It's very obscure. RPG is fun because of experimentation. And you cannot experiment with luck. You can have bad luck with high luck and good luck with low luck. If you make luck too powerful it can break the game. If you make it not relevant then why include it at all.
3. Equipment. Armor should not depend on any stat. You should be able to wear armor if you can carry it. So magical armor can just reduce the weight.
4. Weapon scaling. I also hope that weapons and armor will NOT depend on your level. I like the idea of bows depending on strength. Basically I like the idea of weapons scaling with different stats. For example
knifes could scale with speed
crossbows, halbers and some swords with dexterity
axes, maces and some swords with strength.
5. Also what do you think about completely respeccing of character stats and skills within game? I think it should cost money. It provides a lot of experimentation and RPG genre is all about it.
6. You could also think about throwing away level system and replacing it with continuous progression. Because level system is only used to make stat increments more accessible. E.g. in level system you get level up and can increment strength by 1, in continuous progression you can at any time increment strength if you have N points of XP. You can also determine very easily from your existing level system the amount of XP needed for every level of continuous progression upgrades.
7. I also like when dialog trees show which dialog options follow from high stats. I think it should be transparent. Maybe even show throws as an option.
1) Agreed
2) Agreed
3) Disagreed. Armor should be handled like any other equipment. See 4).
4) Every weapon, armor or equipment item should depent on stats, not on levels. A mage without enough strengths should not be able to wear heavy armor or wield a great sword.
5) Disagreed. Respeccing characters completely is a major immersion breaker. Respeccing single stat points could be ok for a high price (not only money but also XP?). But if you want to change your character from a mage to a warrior you should have to start a new game.
6) Makes no sense if you get only one stat point per level (as it is now). So there would be no difference between a level system and the XP system you propose. Here you only get a message "You have enough XP points now to increase a stat -> new level".
7) NEVER EVER! Stats should ALWAYS work in the background in a video game, they should never be visible in dialogues or something else. If you have "enough" stat points in e.g. charming there could be another dialogue line in some conversations but it shouldn't be marked "charming 10:.....". You should be able to get that on your own be reading the text, everything else is another immersion breaker and after all, bad design....
1) I'm not 100% sure on that TBH.
2) Very much agreed. At least it isn't a primary attribute, but I really, really hate Luck stats.
3&4) I'm not sure where the disagreement lies as you both seem to say the same and accordingly I agree with both of you.
5) *shrugs* Whatever. I never do it, but if someone wants to, why not? Just don't advertise it to me in-game, i.e. NPC's saying "Come to me if you want to redistribute what you have learned!"
6) Not true. Remember there's also skill points. That said, I prefer level-less and class-less systems, but am fine with level-based and/or class-based systems as well, especially if I control a whole party instead of just one or two characters.
7) A toggle would be easy enough, so stop your majuscule indignation right there.
Ok, I have a new/improved proposal for the stat system. I would still split up combat and social skills because (I'm fully with Josh Sawyer here) you shouldn't try to bring P&P rules 1to1 to video games but instead you should try to find the best working system that offers the best gameplay in video games in respect of your focus there. And as Larian's focus is on combat AND on interaction/communication I still think a split would improve the system by large.
You should gain one stat point per level for either:
- strength
- dexterity
- intelligence
- constitution
- speed
And another stat point per level for either:
- intimidation
- charming
- reasoning
I cut perception (because of the good comments above) and thievery (because thief abilities like pickpocketing and lockpicking should be active skills with basic/advanced stats in dexterity/speed and not stats themselves)
I'm pretty sure PE divides skill points, not attribute points. The problem I have with this is that it forces you to have a combat-and-social build, not allowing you(r character) to focus on one or the other. I'd argue against it until I'm blue in the face (and in fact did exactly that). In D:OS's case, the way it is now, an increase in a primary stat (in other words (and better terminology): an attribute) causes an auto-increase in what is effectively a skill. Sure, your proposed system seems nice enough and a social skill tree merely influenced by whatever "stats" (and traits) seem appropriate would be great, but I'm fairly okay with the way it is now.
