Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity - Original Sin - General PvP arena mode

Yes, yes, I can hear even hear the upcoming complaints in my ear while writing this stuff, but please read my text first....

So, Player vs. Player, one of the BAD MMO modes....yes, indeed. IMO
a PvP arena mode would be awesome in D:OS! I mean, actually there is already almost everything in the game for a mode like that, you would only have to tweak some things, make a proper player lobby (which is reasonalbe for co-op anyway) and make one or a few small maps/arenas.

In fact, the engine supports 6 player characters. There could be mods later with content for 6 players at the maximum. So it should be possible to let these players also fight against each other, I mean honestly why not? That could be real fun. Sure, perhaps it could be integrated later by fan-mods but why passing on something in the first place which could enhance the game and attract even more people to buy the game?

1v1, 2v2 or 3v3 …… Could be great fun with friends and wouldn't be that much effort I guess. I think more game modes are always a good marketing instrument for reaching a greater audience. And the game is already co-op based so why not using the possiblity to invent a small PvP mode, just an arena in which two teams can fight a turn-based battle?

Co-op and PvP are like siblings. One is WITH another player the other is AGAINST another player. I don't get the point why there shouldn't be both available in D:OS.....

I personally do not love arena's for fighting ...

But after all you ideas are not stupid at all.
And maybe with turn based combat an arena fight is more enjoyable for me that a real time fight in a arena, who knows ?

But to be honest: I only want such arena and fights against eachother IF this can be implemented (in some way) in the story of D:OS .
Not just "fight because of fighting", how funny the TB combat may be, but for me a "No no no no no ... !"

I agree. I think this would be a lot of fun and a good way to give the game some extra longevity - as well as perhaps a great way to showcase the game to friends who are on the fence about buying it. I'm much more of a story-based, single-player person, but I don't like how they're seen as diametrically opposed and poisonous to one another. In actual pen'n'paper RPGs, you could potentially fight each other at any time, and indeed the DM is constantly "PvPing", essentially.

Though i can imagine PvP being totally for fun and 0 for balanced or hardcore, i cant see why this wouldnt be a fun addition. Its quite easy, make an arenamap and give the 2 players different factions. Even if people only play it once, already worth it :P

Yeah, Timeraider, and once it's there, it will be easy for even a new modder to modify it and balance it themselves. I'd enjoy it if the ringmaster/announcer person was one of the Larian team, too - or "fantasy version" of his or her name.

Or a sheep... a black talking sheep.. that kills everyone with lightning if the battle takes to long.. yes... yeesssss

I think we're onto something here!

This weeks tournament schedule:

Day 1) Watch vs. Codex (aka Commander Myrthos against the imps)
Day 2) WOOS vs. Devs (aka the herd against the horde)


to be continued....

It's going to be tough to unlearn years of FOR THE HORDE! in lieu of FOR THE HERD!

If I'm lucky nobody notices it if I mess up, guys, guys?...

Btw this sounds like something that would be perfect for modders to pull off. Doing it right might take a bit too much effort away from the "base game".

No, you can't I fear. Mechanics and basic engine systems are likely not changable with the editor (outcome of the AMA). And you would need a sort of matchmaking system and a system which would allow real people to play against each other.

Would be mucht better to have a PvP mode from the beginning (or in a patch/update later?). As I said, it's also a strong marketing and sales argument because it would be a complete new game mode (without THAT big effort of Larian I guess).

The fighting against eachother is probably already covered, you can harm eachother and if you can put people in different factions ("teams") you're already most of the way there I should think. I guess the difficulty would be to split the teams up (though it *could* likely be made to work with everyone in the same party) but that would also require UI changes, especially if you start talking about stuff like 1v1v1 or so. But if anything needs to be added to just allow PvP it could probably be done with relatively minor effort I'd think.

Personally my only interest in PvP would be to fight out who's build is best (you just *know* this argument will come up sooner or later) in a sort of controlled environment, being able to guarantee people start the fight on equal terms (take away consumables etc for a match, maybe lock out henchmen, yadda yadda), there's no need for matchmaking for that and I'm pretty sure implementing matchmaking isn't exactly a minor undertaking so personally I'd rather they don't bother with that aspect. Also as soon as matchmaking etc comes up I hear competitions, ladders etc sneak in and...meh just meh, not interested.

Either way without actual input from someone of Larian we can't really know how much can be done with the editor as is and what would require extra effort to make it possible.

Hm, I really don't want a shitty PvP mode done by somebody with the editor tbh.

And don't forget data-match. You can't play with other people in co-op if they don't have exactly the same version like you. That makes it very hard to play in co-op when using a lot of mods.

With a PvP arena mode from the beginning you could always play with (against) people with a vanilla version.

I'd be more interested in a way to sync mods between clients then (client versions would of course still have to be "hard" enforced) as that would also greatly benefit people playing together with modified copies. Sort of like the original Unreal Tournament did it (but with an easy way to see what you downloaded, where they got it from and the ability to easily extract said mods, say, for backing up), of course the internet has arguably grown a lot nastier since those days so I dunno how secure that system actually is/was (I've never had issues with it at least), but I'll leave security questions to people actually competent in such matters.

And I don't share your lack of faith in the community to come up with awesome PvP mods if given the right tools, it wouldn't exactly be the first time (arguably that was already a PvP game, but they turned it into something pretty much 100% different from the original).

Anyway, I'd rather have it so people get all the tools to do crazy stuff *not* intended by the devs rather than a straight up PvP mod. Like more control over the abilites, or the party (which would ofc benefit arena PvP modders as well), I think it would be cool if people managed to set up weird persistent worlds with even weirder mechanics (some weird form of multiplayer Might & Magic anyone?). I'm not even sure if ingame matchmaking would still make much sense if such diverse ways to play were possible.

But maybe I went way overboard now, but still, MMO toolkits tend to be flexible, some of the crazy stuff built for the NWNs is testament to that.

EDIT: I think I somewhere lost my thread of thought and went on a rant along a different thread...

IIRC that is automatic if you join a game and don't have the required mod. Each mod is a file in a folder, anyway, so syncing / managing mods shouldn't be a problem.

On a side note, you can click CTRL+click to force attack. Could easily turn the whole game into a PvP arena when the players like it. Confirmed when David was talking to Quill/Ohm's LP. I forgot which one.

That's not the same. You guys always think to much "from the nerdy or professional site"....

Tbh I doubt that many people will install much mods for D:OS after all, that's a simple fact. Many people just want to play (that's imo the biggest advantages of the consoles), they have no interest in searching for mods in forums, installing the manually, looking for patches every 5 days and stuff like that.

If you want to make a featuere which should attrack people and make your game "bigger" and "more appealing" simply by offering more game modes you have to do it in the vanilla version.

In the vanilla campaign mode only two people can play together meaningfully. That's too less, even if you can attack other players manually by ctrl+left-mouse.

A PvP arena is about fighting against other people or other "teams" in a controlled and defined environment. Especially for a turn-based game which uses such things like weather, environment, elements, line of sight, friendly-fire and so on, a game mode like that would be awesome for team tactics, not only against the AI like in the campaign but against other players. Such a game mode can offer real long-time-enjoyment out of the box after you finished the campaign even if you don't want or don't know how to install and use mods. And to be honest, I don't know any game on the market which offers a turn-based PvP mode which the combat features of D:OS so it would be a clear unique selling point (which is also true for the campaign due to its innovative conversation feature).

IMO it would be a complete lost opportunity to not make something like that for D:OS, at least in a patch/update later on if there is no time to include that from the beginning.

But please, Larian, think about it. A PvP mode out of the box could attrack even people who don't like RPGs in general or some of the "modern console game fanes" to buy the game. And we would all benefit from better sales......

PvP would be cool... As an add-on. Maybe.
Don't get me wrong, I like to PvP sometimes, but there are much higher priorities atm, and knowing Larian they don't want to ship the game with an insipid PvP.
I remember playing Magicka, its PvE was fun and all, it had a great potential regarding PvP, but the arenas were just plain... Boring, to be polite.
I wouldn't want the same error to happen here.

The Steam Workshop is well integrated to most games supporting it, it's easy to use, you can install/remove mods in a clic. You don't have to spend hours on forums, searching for manuals as to how to install them, etc...
If PvP has to be integrated, it'll emanate from modders, and fun things can be done with only the vanilla game.
At first there won't be many mods of course (I'm myself really looking forward the editor but won't touch it without having beforehand done the game from top to bottom).
On the long-term we can expect a "Protect the Sheep", "Assault on the Abbey", "Release the Killer Rabbit !" game modes, don't worry .

As for "modern console game fans", they usually stick to their console, if we're talking about the same pool of "players". They're not much into RPGs, and because there's a PvP feature in one of them, on a platform they're not used to play, will neither change the very nature of the game nor mean it'll interest them enough to buy it (especially if it only represents a side aspect of the game).

To sum it up, I don't think it'd be a loss not to include a PvP mode.
It won't attract the aficionados of PvP because they have other games to satisfy themselves ; it'll slow Larian ; it'll be more of a "last-second content" than something planned from the beginning which would naturally integrate itself in the game ; the editor will, hopefully, allow us to design our own PvP content.

The editor will not allow us that, I fear. There is no PvP mechanic or system atm and nothing which makes a "real" PvP mode feasible with the editor (rosters, ladders, official arenas, match-making, balancing, ....)

And not everyone will use Steam (and Steamworks) and - I say it again - many people don't use mods at all.

And it will be almost impossible to fight against "stranger teams" in 2v2 or 3v3 because there has to be complete data-match. So every player would have to have the exact same game version and exact the same mods installed. Wow! That won't work. That will NEVER work. The only way to do this properly to include it in the vanilla version. Then it's like: "oh, I want to play PvP now, I just disable all my mods and swuuush, I'm ready!" That would probably work.

I like all the modding, really, but modding AND co-op are two principles that don't really work together well. That might work if you only play with friends (then you can manually communicate until both have the exact same version) but it will NEVER work with strangers.

IMO the mods VS co-op problem is even one of the biggest challenges I see for Larian (besides the combat AI and balancing). I'm curious how that will work out....

I really don't think so, does anybody in their right mind play an unmodded Skyrim? (please seek help if you do )



Well, if Raze is right this part is a solved problem already, I am guessing the "host" decides which mods are allowed and the rest just gets them pushed to them when they join. (really, it worked great in UT and that was 12 years ago...)

After seeing that last video about the editor I do wonder how it's going to work once multiple games have been released using the same toolset, even though you could conceivably get all the plugins without buying successive games (ignoring that I don't see why you wouldn't if you enjoy them) I assume you'll still need all the campaigns for access to the art assets.

Btw is Larian using this *toolset* (I know the engine is the same) to make Dragon Commander? Because if so that would mean there already *is* pvp and multiplayer support...and support for entirely different playstyles than the real time + TB combat of D:OS? I mean, that would be so goddamn awesome it couldn't even fit on any scale of awesomeness.

Still I'm edging more and more towards supporting putting full PvP support in the editor, though I still have my reservations about a default arena mode. I guess here we mainly disagree about the capability and creativity of the modder community...

You're talking about two completely different approaches of the game. The whole game is not designed to be played with strangers. There are no lobbies, no rosters/ladders/match-making, etc... And so far we can assume there won't be anything of that sort. And personally, considering the philosophy of the game, it's perfect.
Now, if because of the PvP feature (which will be merely but a filler for something that has never been intended), Larian has to redesign the accessibility of the game, then I'm clearly against the idea.

Now I think you underestimate the power of modding. Not only do we have a basis on which to work on (friendly fire), but also will we have an editor shipped with the game, for free, and a massive bunch of possibilities with just this editor. But is that to say we're limited to the editor ? Clearly no.
There are many other ways to mod a game.

The PvP is likely to be modded. Now the question is : Will people be interested enough in PvP to install the required mod ? If not, then I don't see why Larian should bother working extra hours for something that's not particularly wanted. If yes, then they will be served.
As for PvPing with stranger, I understand the difficulty of organizing something with someone you don't know, but it's not an impossible task. As to how will it be done, I have no idea : Forums ? Groups ?
Regarding the fact that every strangers should have the same mods installed, it's irrelevant provided you can organize yourself, on the model I stated above.
If a group form and want to organize a "Deathmatch day", let's say every Sundays, I suppose they'll be organized enough to indicate which mods are required. Common sense.

As for all these rosters, ladders, balancing and all, I'm sincerely against it as far as the vanilla game is concerned. The game is not revolving around the idea of competition/e-sport, but rather about having fun with friends. You don't need all these features to experience it.

If the interest in PvP is big enough, maybe Larian could design something AFTER the release to facilitate the organization, but I'd honestly be pissed off if they waste their time on something that hasn't been thought of from the beginning and that isn't even assured to be popular.
That would be a sad waste of energy.
As I said, Larian has shown great expectations for D:OS, I think they have much higher priorities, and PvP is not something to be designed in a week and thrown away at fans.