Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity - Original Sin - General Larian, of Interest: Planetary Annihilation Woes

Why pay for alpha key?
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This is a sticky issue with me (on principal I am one of those folks who will not 'pay' for an alpha key).
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The idea behind a kickstart is to present an idea that requires a certain amount of funding; and those people who are interested in seeing the idea implemented help fund it. The 'pay for alpha' amounts to "I really want this game funded so I am willing to pay a bit more to move the project along" the 'alpha' portion is a method to attach a value to that additional funding. Where it becomes sticky is that if you sell alpha i.e, allow the 'fan' to 'purchased' alpha you can no longer make alpha freely available for testing purposes. The fan wasn't really buying 'alpha' they were expressing their desire to see the product realized by contributing a bit more but the tangible aspect has created a catch-22.
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So in that sense i actually feel it is a mistake to 'sell' alpha and beta access.
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Actually I have a real issue with kickstarts when we talk about tier significantly over pre-order because this is not a joint venture. If you contribute large sums of money towards the product (large >> base cost) you do not share in the revenues if the product is a massive success but you have in fact taken the risk to move the product forward.
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Lets take veronica mars. Individuals contributed a very large amount towards production of this movie (perhaps over contributed relative to the base cost). The excess funds will likely go towards filming in more exotic locations and perhaps stay in nicer accommodations. Assuming the film is well managed (they do not spend beyond the kickstart funds) and is a success ($$$$ is made upon the final product) what happens to these $$$$? Do they go towards more veronica mars movies? Do they get return to the original investors? Does the studio execs receive a larger bonus ?
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Anyway we see the cruft of the situations. Given the above I still have contributed to several kickstarts. Why? I don't know - I think it because either I trust the specific teams I contributed to or I though they had a unique idea that I wanted to see realized (i.e, a few I've contributed include xile, obsidian, Crate (I think everyone else was very small) but I avoided a few that didn't feel right (to me) (I will only mention one of them as this can be quite sticky) doublefine and most of my contributions have amounted to pre-orders or perhaps (in the case of D:OS) marginally more.
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Where planetary annihilization ran into trouble is they carried over their request for funding to product purchase price on steam - for lack of a better way to phrase it the carry over changed the perspective of 'crowd funding' to 'purchase price' (perspective is everything - not the actual $$ but how you view those $$ being spent).
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How does this relate to D:OS - the original poster (I think) out of concern for D:OS wanted to show what would happen if you attempt to use STEAM (store front) as a method to raise additional funds via selling 'kickstart' like add-on. As others (raze) have noted the appropriate method to do this is to sell the add-on via the website and use steam as a distribution method and I suspect that taking that approach would carry no backlash.
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Still I much rather tee-shirts and similar be sold then things like 'alpha' and 'beta' access.
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Crowd funding is a very amusing concept and I think it has cross some grey areas (ala abuse). It is one thing for the starving artist with some talent to indicate that the only way to produce a painting we all want to see is if you help pay his cost of living while he is painting; but it is another thing (imho) for a major studio to request that you fund their films (i.e, they take no risk) but they pocket all profits.
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As a parting note how I personally see a difference between [xxx] Studio and (for example) Obsidian? I believe that if Eternity is successful they will support the game well after release (fixing bug, adding new content, ...) as needed I do not see [xxx] Studio releasing a free film with the excess money they earn.
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[disclaimer: I do not know factually that kickstart will fund 100% of the film production cost; that it will make $$$$ upon release; and what will become of $$$$ if it makes $$$$; but I do believe that most of the kickstarts I've supported (at least the ones I mentioned by name) will attempt to support that product well after release (with in reason).]
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Anyway I think I've said too much and hopefully haven't offended too many people this morning.

*EDITED*

To shorten up what I had typed out before..here we go.

There is a lot of what if, and a lot of needing to be special or privileged....its a game.. If you like it support because you like it...not for bragging rights~ just sayin.

IF and a big if Larian did offer to sell Alpha or Beta access, Who cares? it would be alpha or beta access and that is it. The kick starter funders got other goodies. Which I am 100% sure will not be in the offering. (Do keep in mind all this is all over a post about a different game)

Larian has not given official word what they will be doing.

Here is a big reminder to well everyone, If you do something just to lord it over others..then you do it for the wrong reasons...the more people who venture into Divinity Original sin the better as a whole for players and company...

More players means more user created content, More players also means more money for the company to continue bringing amazing games.

Again, for people not caring (and any middle ground until caring) an unfinished extra expensive version is really that convincing? This group of people that aren't completely uninterested but are not involved in the game neither, but at the same time are persuaded for a $75~90 alpha sounds oddly specific and somehow counter-intuitive.


I didn't, i already pointed out the sales on the other rewards but apparently they didn't counted because "everyone knew" which is weird because...


Because that's your argument

-Would people pledge if everybody knew that you can get the rewards cheaper?
-Well, there is these rewards that are cheaper
-Oh but they don't count because everybody knows that you can get them cheaper
-But that's exactly...
-Alphas are different and if they are sold after for cheaper, everybody would know that you can get them cheaper, and that can't happen, i mean, would people pledge if everybody knew that you can get the rewards cheaper?

Is a circular reasoning.

But let's actually test it.

Outside of name the whatever, let's test the rewards from the original sin kickstarter

>The anthology and divine: Check for cheaper beyond any kind of protest, i hope

>Original sin and dragon commander: They are gonna be cheaper in a steam sale unless we can't have sales anymore because of backers, better stop sales all together to maintain the value of the rewards.

>Soundtrack, dev docs, map and artbook: Because apparently kickstarter is a store and not a place to support projects, we can discard any wish to support larian, so may as well get these in a torrent (hell, this apply to the games too, weird how even if you can get something for free there are still enough people willing to pay for things to make a business out of it)
Physical form? A printer or a cd burner

>The t-shirt, deck and the dice: kinda expensive for what they are, better deals on those sites that let you buy and personalize stuff

And we can argue if some of them really fit or not but a really good part of them does, so anybody pledge? No, nobody did


How is that relevant? we are not talking about a product

That implied that they sold it before and kickstarter is not a sto...

Price implies selli...




I wrote my view before, condescension may not be a great debate tactic but ignoring a valid point because you didn't liked the tone is fallacious, attacking the format instead of the content is an invalid debate tactic

No, you are right, i saw this developer on twitter, giving away keys for his game, how dare him? After people brought his game on release day, he is treating all his fan as suckers, and there this steam summer sale, monsters, all of them, selling their games for cheap, worse than Stalin.

And please don't reply with "but they are games, everybody knows that you can get them cheaper and that's not the case with alphas" because then you are using "is not the common practices" as a argument about why it should be the common practice and is gonna be the same circle .

Oh and nice comment about all the people who pledged for the $5 tier "Ha, they paid for something worthless just to help larian out, lol, suckers" i didn't know that pledges below $10 didn't got the pretense of gratitude, good thing that i pledged more then.

I don't want to fuel the discussion, but I think there is a subtle difference between the alpha/beta access and "physical" rewards which nobody has pointed out so far (unless I am mistaken):

"Phyiscal goods" (by which I also mean a digital distribution of the game etc.) have a life period of many years. Everyone knows that the prices for physical goods will drop eventually and that sometime they also will go on sale. So, everyone makes a decision, whether to pay the full price for the goods now and use them immediately after release or to wait for another two years before purchasing them for just 1/10 of the full price.

Alpha/beta access is in contrast a once-in-a-lifetime event for the game. So, it is kind of weird to put them on sale before the event has even taken place.

Compare it to a film premiere and a DVD release. If I buy a DVD on the first day of its release, I know I will get it much cheaper one year later. If I pay a few hundreds dollars to go to a film premiere, then I expect that the price remains constant until the very day of the event. I pay for the possibility to mingle with the stars, for the whole atmosphere and for the awareness to belong to the "chosen circle" of people who go to the premiere. If, however, it is customary that the premiere tickets always drop in price 1 week before the event and EVERYONE can buy them, then I am likely to be annoyed that I paid so much money for something which is now available at half price and will never bye any premiere tickets anymore at full price but wait until they are offered for cheaper.

Again, for people not caring (and any middle ground until caring) an unfinished extra expensive version is really that convincing?

Based on the fact that people do, in fact, pledge to lower tiers and them move up to higher tiers, or add alpha/beta access as an addon, then I would have to say yes.


I didn't, i already pointed out the sales on the other rewards but apparently they didn't counted because "everyone knew" which is weird because...

You pointed out sales of existing games, offered as add-ons, which could not in any way be considered kickstarter tier rewards.


Is a circular reasoning.

You need to brush up on your reading comprehension.


Original sin and dragon commander: They are gonna be cheaper in a steam sale unless we can't have sales anymore because of backers

Are they going to be significantly cheaper before the games are released?

Are you arguing that pledging for a kickstarter and having something sold for less before you even get it, is the same as buying on release and having it eventually go on sale?


>Soundtrack, dev docs, map and artbook:

You mean things that are commonly bundled with games eventually? That, like the game itself, everyone pledging knows will be cheaper eventually if they wanted to wait?

If they are kickstarter tier rewards, then offering them for free or cheap to others before the game is released is a little rude, but nobody would reasonably expect them to be exclusive.


Because apparently kickstarter is a store and not a place to support projects, we can discard any wish to support larian, so may as well get these in a torrent

Do you consider that a logical argument?


How is that relevant? we are not talking about a product

If the tier rewards have no value once the project is funded, as you propose, why can't you pledge for cheaper after that? When the final stretch goal is meet, you should be able to pledge for the basic tier and get all the rewards, based on your position.


I wrote my view before, condescension may not be a great debate tactic but ignoring a valid point because you didn't liked the tone is fallacious, attacking the format instead of the content is an invalid debate tactic

Neither of which I did.


Oh and nice comment about all the people who pledged for the $5 tier "Ha, they paid for something worthless just to help larian out, lol, suckers"

You completely missed the point. I said developers shouldn't treat kickstarter backers like suckers by giving away kickstarter tier rewards before the game is even out (as you propose they do).

Steam is a plattform whith many kids around.

Whereas kickstartes rather attracts grown ups with bigger money purses.
They can pay, they're more patient and they value stuff more.
Some of them don't even mind waiting more than a year for a good game.


This being said it is easily understand that the Steam community which is used to get their 1 pre-heated Call of Beauty per anno reacts shocked upon laying their eyes on the price.
Most of them won't ever check the reasoning for the price anyways.

I agree with the TO that while having good intentions realeasing a game like that can be a devastating move.

Offer an option like that on your own website.
Make sure people read why they pay twice the price.
Steam is purely for distribution of the finished game.

That, and Call of Modern Battlefield 2.3