Larian Studios Forums Dragon Commander Dragon Commander - General Multiplayer....how?

So does that mean GOG version won't provide any kind of multiplayer master server listing open/running games? I don't care about statistics nor rankings, but the multiplayer seems to be the essencial part of the game, so it is very disappointing to not have such a essential part of gameplay included. It is quite suprising that developers don't care about non-steam players as they were left at a garbage behind a house . Saying that, this won't make me buy a steam version, because GOG is what I prefer and Steam what I deprecate. Another sad day for game industry...

I do admit, I am just as surprised myself. I somewhat expected at least SOME sort of matchmaking even if you're not on Steam. For example, a CD-key, or a Steam key, or SOMETHING that allows you to play the game feature-complete. But nope!

So as I've posted numerous times, we should make our own http://www.larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=471851#Post471851 .

Its quite a shame that there is not a single official matchmaking help for people that bought the gog/vault version because the important information wasnt really present.
After all it said multiplayer online, "GOG, Steam, Vault etc... No differences" and so on.
So i thought there would finally be a nice game to look forward to without having to put up with steam,origin,uplay,etc. After buying i had to find out via other sad customers that you practically cant play multiplayer if you dont buy from steam. If i knew that i wouldnt have supported,advertised or let alone looked forward to the title.

The reaction to at least change Larians description to more accurately say what it means to not buy on steam is ok.
But then again it would have been nice to at least make some official forum,chat or what not to supply non-steamers with at least a workaround. Implement the channelid,link or whatnot into the game with a simple text notice and configure a new forum area or irc channel or something else. One days work by some trainee would have been enough to do that.
And of course fixing it that you at least wont have to configure your router if you even find someone to play multiplayer with would have been good.
That would still be pretty lame compared to a simple matchmaking or "server"-list but at least it would have been something. But the way it was released your completely cutting out non-steam-buyers from most of the game. Now the people that had interest in MP either switched to steam or for the most part lost interest already.
Singleplayer is ok and the game itself is very nice but the "AI" is pretty boring once you learn how it works and hardly keeps the game going for more than a couple of hours. Also balance is not worth anything in singleplayer. Especially with the dragon. So the MP part would have been very important.

Im not angry at Larian. Im just really sad that a game i had high hopes for and was looking forward to was such a letdown. And the part im really sad about is that its not because of the game but because of where you buy it from or rather have to buy it from. The game itself would have been good... so close...
Striking the devils deal with steam while still selling it crippled outside of it was maybe good for money and sales of this title but it wasnt good for the game and the name.

Thanks to Zhuinden for making your irc channel and advertising it as good as you can. If they would at least make same sort of notice on the forum about that it would at least get some chance that non-steamers could find someone to play MP with. I dont have high hopes anymore though. Too little too late. But good luck in any case and thanks Zhuinden for trying.



edit:


it does indeed mean that.
if you buy it from steal.. erm steam you get the complete game. if you buy it from somewhere else you get crippleware. practically the same as if you download it illegaly.
meaning there is NO serverlist/browser or anything of the sorts to play multiplayer.
you can only try lan and "connectviaip" BUT the second option only works if you configure your internet router at home right. port 23232 udp btw


since hope still dies last, does anyone know if there is anything in the planing, dlc or what not that enables some kind of lobby for dragon commander? edit2: no steam :P

Fair enough. How about _I_ assumed that there would be a lobby system in the DRM free version.
I quote from the larian vault:

"
Comes as a DRM free download
..
[add to cart]
..
Single player, multiplayer and co-op modes
Play the story-driven single player campaign, test your mettle against other Dragon Knights, online or local via LAN. Start your own custom multiplayer campaign with or against a friend. Or duke it out on a skirmish map.
"

OF COURSE if this were EA, I would expect every word to be a pitfall, but I TRUST these guys and honestly thought the above means there is a master browser in the DRM free version.
My bad?

No it definitely isnt your bad.
Falling into Larians marketing trap by the dozens and instead of a workaround,forum or some help we get beat down by the occasional "but you didnt read our [deceptive] statement right" and "we changed it to be more clear [after release]".
hurting your already fooled customers. this right here is how you do it.
parallels to EA are indeed pressing.

Except Larian makes unintentional mistakes. Mistakes they be, but they're not malevolent.

Oh, you want to talk about what you think what Larian does... I think they just don't give a shit about the two or three people who buy the DRM free edition solely with the intent to get that and not the STEAM key. But nobody knows what's really the case, do we? Even if Sven himself comes in here and posts something. Which I would advise against. At this point, it's just people arguing.

While I agree that this seems to be a case of ambiguity/mistaken intent, it still created strong expectations among the customer base, and the resulting backlash is potentially damaging to Larian's reputation. As such, I hope that Larian will consider setting up a non-Steam multiplayer server for those who have Vault/GoG copies of the game, even if it's kept very basic for budget reasons. (I suspect that most people won't really care about a lack of rankings or ladders or achievements or any of that other Steamworks stuff - they just want to be able to hook up with their friends without having to jump through a bunch of technical hoops.)

Is there any chance that people who bought the game from gog will get a free steam key to make use of the full multiplayer functionality?

the gog team is so friendly that you can ask for a refund via support (button on middle top on gog site).
they give you your money back and then you can buy it from steam.
on a side note, this is however full courtesy of gog and of course hurting them in the process.

Killer-Bee: Yeah, I feel sorry for GOG too, because it's not their fault, since it is failure of developers who don't care about all players equally. So it is nice to see that GOG CARES about customers.


Exactly. Instead of making some alternative they just say "you silly guys, we don't bother to make any multiplayer lobby - steam did it already for their customers and the rest of you is just nothing we would care about. Here is a topic we make our statement more clear by saying - eat s*** non-steam fools..."

Well, they can still patch something in to not f**k legitimate customers over completely.

There has been a complete total of 1 person to join the IRC in 3 days, so I'm guessing the 'alternative solution' won't work, meaning the DRM-free GOG version really is just an incomplete edition of the game.

Add me to the list of people that feel ripped off, lied to, and stolen from by Larian. Now I'm stuck with a broken incomplete version on GOG. Worse, if I even want to go to the dark side of Steam I'd have to pay more now to get the same product because of Larian's deceitful nature with regards to this. Larian knew all along there were significant differences but didn't announce that fact till after the they started shipping and people did their downloads. That is just wrong.

Well they COULD fix this by giving every GOG purchasers their own Steam key.

Considering you can play the whole, complete game only if you own the STEAM version.

That is factually incorrect. There was no intent to deceive anyone. The GOG page might not have been clear about multiplayer, but throughout the D:OS kickstarter, etc, Larian was clear that the online multiplayer function would use Steamworks.

The first example I found, from the Reddit AMA;


You would have some points in your favour to argue incompetence, if you were so inclined, but not malice.

So you're response that they weren't deceptive is some post on some outside site rather than the their stickied posts here? Lies that they changed after the fact that were posted to their own site. Bad idea trying to go to unofficial offsite forums when their own official forums had the deceptive lies posted; lies that they AFTER they were caught modified to show the real situation. After they had already ripped people off and sold inferior broken incomplete products. Nothing but deceptive slime tactics. The biggest post stickied to the top of every Dragon Commander forum and subforum here on the official site contained the blatant lies about no significant differences that then needed "clarification". A complete lack of a usable multiplayer matchmaking system is a significant difference. Please show me some statements that counter the deception they did that is, was, and have been posted for as long and stickied as much as their lies and you might have a case. Such statements that also showed the real facts prior to any edits unlike the very stickied pack of lies at the top of every one of these official forums that got changed after the fact.

Funny, I pre-ordered Rise Of The Triad {has its own issues but that is another matter} at the exact same time and guess what I can play with Steam users just fine because that game came with with proper complete Multiplayer support. Larian LIED, plain pure and simple. They did so and then stickied the lies all over their forums in time to make sure pre-sales were quite high as their product got pushed across summer sales. Then after they were CAUGHT, AFTER THE GAME RELEASED they went back and admitted the truth, changing the stickied post at that time.

also this has nothing to do with a lobby/browser/etc. the guy (from the subforum of some unknown q&a meeting) just asked if they could play together.
this is just ridiculous.
the sheer amount of people here, on gog and other forums that say they got ripped off or fooled and thought there would be a lobby after reading your statements should tell you that there is something wrong with your viewpoint.
its nice and all that you write some marketing slurs here and there but so far your "you customers just didnt interpret our advertisement right" standpoint does more harm than good.

That was a single example, and as you keep pointing out, posts here can be changed, so isn't a link to another site that can not be edited after the fact more reliable?
I was refuting the proposition that Larian lied, which means it does not matter where the quote is from. If you were arguing that Larian was unclear (which you wouldn't need to, because that isn't in dispute), then having info on the kickstarter or other sites but on the offical site would matter.



Do you really believe that they deliberately lied on their own site, and yet told the truth on other sites, all throughout the kickstarter campaign, etc? Because somehow there was no overlap between people following the forum and kickstarter and they were not tweeting about the Reddit AMA, etc? Don't you think if they were deliberately trying to hide the lack of a lobby, they could have been consistent?



And was very specifically told that they could not use Steamworks but could use direct IP, as in not a lobby. As in it is, in fact, relevant to the discussion.



It tells me Larian was unclear on the situation. In part that was because for some time they had not determined exactly how they would be handling multiplayer for the DRM free versions.



I have not written any slurs or done any marketing. I refuted accusations that Larian deliberately tried to deceive people.

It is interesting that I can state a position and back it up with logic and facts and you call it a slur, but it is apparently fine if people want to call Larian liars and worse.

in your quote there was NO talk of a lobby or anything regarding that direction even. they just said that if you have two people (one with gog and one with steam) that you can not use steam (what a surprise) to play together but use directipconnect. btw that is not even valid without you having access to your router. which is not a given.
how you could even find a hint about or think that customers should know there would be no lobby system or at least a substitute in gog versions with that statement is a puzzle to me... and obviously countless other people on various sites.



first of all if you know that you only provide a lobby to steam users and you dont produce your own system you dont exactly just know it after launch (when at least the forum announcement was changed). a lobby system and to integrate steamworks isnt done in the last hour before release. a steam exclusive deal was struck or at some point they said that they couldnt finish their own lobby system in time. at this point (we are talking about months) it is obvious to every guy involved in the production cycle of multiplayer and all the higher ups that you are not having a internet lobby and what impact this has.
i even go so far (and am not the only one) to conclude that there were a couple of people that were deliberately vague in their wording every time there was talk about the topic in official channels. and even worded advertisements the way you would think theres a lobby even if there is none. exhibit A: customers that thought so after reading up on dragon commander.
and furthermore they even said in plain text without any room to interpret that there wouldnt be any differences between the versions!
you could also argue that one knows now why there was no beta version made available outside of steam. there is no technical reason against this. only reason could may have been that it would be too much work to upload some files and keep them updated. but then again of course it wouldnt be much use to upload a multiplayer demo to anywhere else but steam if it requires steam to work as multiplayer.
it is nice and all to say that you reassure that you never wanted to lie or fool anyone but in retrospect EVERYTHING says that you did.
and the fact that you dont even do a measily 1 hour work to help the people (example forum set up or publicate fan base workaround like ircchannel) you allegedly didnt want to fool but instead just come up with statements that say "we did never promise anything" while you most certainly did and still do in advertisements tells me what you really think about your customers. which in turn strengthens my above conclusion.
and sorry to say that yet again. we are not just talking about a little fraction of the customers here where big (and unliked) firms like EA can allow themselves to do the exact same thing your doing.


on the contrary we (the countlessly fooled customers) posted numerous times statements by and from Larian that practically and theoretically said that there are no differences between the versions. for example: "GOG, Steam, Vault etc... No differences". This header right here is in your own forum just a few topics above.
and everytime someone posts in a forum be it here or on gog that they feel cheated and expected a lobby because of your statements you pull out a sentence that says NOTHING about lobbys/serverbrowsers/etc and/or complete it by saying that all the fooled customers interpreted the wording on the advertisements wrong (THAT SAID THERE ARE NO DIFFERENCES!) and that we had to KNOW BY THAT THERE ARE IN FACT HUGE DIFFERENCES which make MP practically unplayable.
if you cant find a behaviour that is typical for marketing/lawyers/etc of firms in that i dont know how i can explain it better to you. also you obviously being involved with larian doesnt really help your point.
you brought NO statement where they said there wont be a lobby/browser/etc or any substitute pre launch. instead for every guy that comes in here or gog,etc and tries to get an explanation/excuse/substitute/help you just say the same thing over and over and say we got its wording wrong. you dont back it up or even have facts for your statement because there are none. its just your own (and pretty much singular) opinion over and over again. you back your own opinion up by how your own opinion and how you interpret wording which countless others dont agree with while none except for other larian workers do.
on the contrary even everything the fooled customers and everyone that posts in here or gog points to that you are dead wrong.
and to be honest its plain insulting for paying customers to be handled this way. this in turn should explain to you why people get angry here and on gog. maybe you can do something with that extensive information and explanation which is proven by the sheer number of posts from fooled customers or it has brought you to consider the way you work with paying customers, not against but with them. because plainly said im tired of argueing with your opinion and have just taken this long because i felt like i could at least achieve that you get up and help us instead of just kicking us customers again and again that already felt into your trap. on the other hand im fairly sure you just plain move straight ahead and larian has already concentrated on their next upcoming release while making a checkmark behind dragon commanders revenue. i just hope you can keep up with that behaviour as long as EA because in the essence you would have produced good games. will be interesting when your trying to crowdfund the next title.

If Larian implemented their own lobby system, there would be no reason the Steam version would not be able to use that, as well. The DRM free versions using a direct connection to play with a Steam version means that it uses a direct connection for online multiplayer.



NAT punch-trough works in most cases without having to set up port forwarding, and the implementation has been improved.



Of course not. But when the original 'no differences' post was made (which was a response to questions of version compatibility, not the actual implementation) details of the DRM free multiplayer had not been finalized.



That's why Larian said pretty early on that online multiplayer would use Steamworks.



Do you have an example for that?


People forming a mistaken assumption, however reasonable, does not prove that the intent was to have people make that assumption.



Except obviously that only the Steam version would use Steamworks.



Steam has a beta system in place to make distributing and managing betas easier.

Divinity Original Sin will use Steam for the alpha/beta, and the game will not have a lobby system (it is not designed to be played with random people online).



By 'I' I meant 'I', not Larian. Larian also was not posting marketing spin, they were just unclear about plans they hadn't finalized yet.



I have refuted accusations that Larian tried to deceive people (without blaming people for misunderstanding, as you try to characterize). People looking for help I have tried to help. If I had any kind of news or updates I would pass them along, but that will have to wait for an official response.



I have backed up my statements. It is hard to provide 'facts' when anything here doesn't count because it can be changed and anything not here doesn't count because it is not here.
You have not provided any facts to support an accusation that Larian tried to deceive anyone.



And yet the vast majority of people who bought the game have not posted here or in the GOG forum about this. Could it be that some of them did, in fact, know that the GOG version would not include the Steamworks lobby but use a direct connection for online play? Could some of them have assumed there would just be a direct connection, since the multi-player for most GOG games doesn't use a server? Could it be that some people bought the game for single player, and don't care about multiplayer? Could it be that some people only intend to play against friends, so an extra step of getting an IP address is not a horrible inconvenience?



It is not 'kicking' customers to say that Larian didn't try to deceive anyone. If I could speed up an official response I would do so.