Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity Original Sin - Beta The loss of Day & Night Schedules.

I must admit to never really understanding why that was ever a priority. I know it was a much-criticised feature in e.g. Oblivion, and I "get" why being warned that a character is invincible isn't necessarily a good thing, but being able to kill anyone you meet just seems to be a bit gratuitous to me.

You're not alone in that. I play Divinity: OS with a friend who describes this particular feature as "stupid", even though I try to be convincing when explaining that the option of killing anyone is important to some players.

And while highly amused by the video itself ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mnvuoLs2wY ), I was surprised by how many of the responding comments referred to killing questgivers as being a flaw in the design. Example:

"Ooh... I'm probably going to steer away from this game. I don't consider having the ability to easily kill quest-givers a gift, I consider it an annoyance."

The point being that it's not a feature that everyone is enamored with. Now, they didn't understand that Larian Studios has gone through great lengths to make sure this feature doesn't break gameplay, so there is certainly a fair share of ignorance tied to their reactions.

However, one of the comments struck a cord with me when they said:

"Yeah, I'm so anal I have to reload if I ever kill a good person, nevermind whether they're a questgiver!"

..because I have a similar point of view. If I find out I've accidentally killed the wrong NPC or a quest-giver, the completionist in me is going to force a reload. So, all this extra freedom ends up becoming an extra hassle.

I was also very disappointed when i read and later watched the news about cutting the day/night cycle and the "npc behaviours" to it. This was a killer feature for me and one that during the kickstarter i was really trying to push forward to.
I remember that i was very happy when swen announced that they overall reached the 1m stretch goal and that it would enable them to add this big immersive feature.

Thats all not to say that i am disappointed by how the rest of the game is turning out, and i am sure it will be alot of fun and worth the funding and the wait. However i would definitly be willing to wait another 6 months and add some further additional pleges/payments for this feature to be implemented. Even tho this might not be a financially feasable option for larian.

Gyson,

Considering my reputation on this forum, I am sorry I will have to globally agree with you. Lets dig the subject a bit. Day and night thingie is composed of two things, I think:
The cosmetic/some gameplay effects of having the day/light go from dawn to dusk, with the light changes, some game features, like zombies being stronger at night, trolls turning into stones during day, and so on. Nobody will tell me this is hard to do, and that it is time consuming for indie pro devs. Larian simply cant say that.
However, those cycles also imply NPC schedules. And this is unfeasable IMHO, and time consuming, for a very poor gameplay interest, as I mentionned a long time ago.
So stopping the schedules is great, but the day/night cycle is lame, really.
As for wasting a precious time and energy making sure some psycho can revel in killing every innocent in the city they are supposed to save is a terrible mistake. DOS is not GTA5.

However, I must admit this level of freedom is amazing, and would in itself be a formidable achievment even if I absolutely do not share the excitment.

Just seeing the devs faces, I cannot deny they are working really hard. But hearing "thousands of bugs"...

So to summary, in my usual asshole (but maybe not so wrong) unhelpful way:
No NPC schedules = good
No day/night = bad
Ability to kill everybody = devs wasting good time for spoiled brats that want to play GTA5OS
Proper craft = more important than killing everybody.
Proper world interaction (beside using a shovel) = more important than killing everybody for a realistic-free RPG.
Interesting character development (beside putting a point in a talent or trading skills at merchants) = more interesting than killing everybody.

I like the idea of day/night as much as the next guy. But in reality what does it really add anyhow to be honest. I think Larian made the absolute right call on this given the quoted expense. I definitely MUCH rather they spend 30% of their budget (that would have otherwise gone to cycles) on more variety of in-game features and polish.

It was a business decision - and it is the right one.

OMG LARIAN WHAT HAVE YOU DONE !
REMOVING SCHEDULES ?
Can you explain me why you are spending an awfull energy and time for what, 10% of the psychos that consider a RPG is complete after they have killed every children around, and you are cancelling the feature that would have allowed another 10% of players that revel in making sure the NPCs (every one of them, for replayability's sake) wash hands after peeing ...

No Larian, you can't, this is unforgivable.

Well, as mentioned in this thread day & night schedules can add several things to the game for everyone. Some examples include:

* Enhancements to realism for everyone - Beyond the obvious cosmetic changes in scenery, NPCs would react appropriately to changes both in the time of day, and also the weather (Larian gave an example of NPCs taking cover when it starts raining, rather than standing around oblivious in the middle of a downpour). I like the fact that in the evening hours I might find more of the town's population in the tavern (this was a behavior I was really fond of in Skyrim, actually).

* Enhancements to gameplay for certain classes or playstyles - it's easier to steal from market stalls during the dead of night, although extra security may be present. It's easier to rummage through homes and dwellings during the night when the population is sleeping, although doors that are normally open would likely be locked. Is there a period of time where most of the guards report to the messhall, leaving the training grounds more vulnerable to looting?

* Enhancements to combat for everyone - certain monsters or abilities may function worse or better depending on the time of day or changes in the weather. Fire-based mages would find themselves struggling during a rainstorm, undead may grow in strength at night, sneaking becomes more effective in a darker setting, extra encounters become available, etc.

If someone were to tell me a game has those features, I would personally be excited. On the other hand, if someone were to tell me the game provided me with the freedom to kill any NPC I wanted to, I would probably say "Huh.. ok. Sounds a bit gratuitous to me." (to steal a phrase from an earlier poster).

So, in reality (compared to day & night schedules), what does that level of freedom really add for me? Nothing. And yet, it had a big hand in costing us the day & night scheduling that I really wanted. So, bleh. I'd love to see a priority poll between these two features on the next game.

This is the day & night schedule video, by the way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtby4YGKlO8

And considering the freedom part of the demonstration (I am free to kill all innocent), am I free to NOT kill all skeletons and orcs ?
I would like to know. Because if I am NOT FREE to let them live, then this freedom to kill all innocent NPCs stuff is utterly stupid and basically wrong.
What if I want to play a peace lover protect all life monk ? So I can play a basic murderer and psychopath, but not a protector of life ?
Maybe I am wrong, and it is possible to sneak your way around the packs, but I doubt it.
Bring back the day/night cycles (not the NPC schedules), they make more sense. Less "freedom", more immersion and gameplay possibilities. Just making the vision reduced at night could make a difference...

So to summary, freedom to complete the game while killing everybody ? and freedom to complete the game while killing no one ?

I see why people might be annoyed, but to me the fact that they dropped this feature is not a bad thing nor was it a surprise. There was no way they were gonna create a vast world with schedules when even Bethesda half failed doing it properly in Oblivion with FAR less interactivity and that had a budget nearly 100 times higher. Let's not forget that schedules mean creating systems and functions to cope with interruptions and NPC deaths / attacks, or coping with players putting giant boxes in front of doors so the guards would be trapped Proper schedules would require a fully developed system and concept of towns and governance. Including fail-saves so that players can't kill an entire town and never be blamed for it. If there are actions without consequences in a game, then they are sandbox gameplay, not RPG gameplay.

When it comes down to it, I am neither a fan of killable quest-givers nor of day and night SCHEDULES. But I hope this does not mean the engine can't handle dynamic day and night cycles. For mods particular this is an important feature.

I just hope the AI personalities for the 2nd character are done PROPERLY. Because to me that is the biggest part of immersion in an RPG. If personalities develop properly depending on how we interact with them or if they are just "stupid scripts" basically a default setting for each choice, with no logic or individuality behind it.... I hope Larian realizes that this single feature makes up 33% of what I want out of this game. (The other 66% is good writing and proper crafting/character building).


It worries me greatly that literally not a single mention of this feature was made related to the beta. It IS in the beta, right?

The zombies, murderous orcs and evil cultists would apparently leave you alone... for some reason?




The AI personalities will not be in the first beta release, but they are coming.

Yes.

Thought you were supposed to have rage quit... welcome back. Good to see you are overreacting as per usual.

I think the wording of "freedom" is general. They are saying with the system in place you could possibly kill everyone but it not the sole reason of concentrating on said feature. They are not adding so much NPC redundancy to cater just to mass NPC murdering players.

It's about taking into account all possible scenarios and adding others to complete quests if you killed NPC or just ignored NPC all together and found/solved quest by happenstance.

Adding day/night cycles could break that and adding the feature, they might have to redo a lot of work already done and go over the entire system with a fine tooth comb and check everything is still working right.

They said they just don't have the resources to QA all of that.

Sounds reasonable enough. Yes, I am a bit disappointed it's not in myself but they said everything is in place for it to be put in so who knows. I'm hoping for an awesome surprise feature in an expansion pack myself!

1- maybe I am invisible, or sneaking, or disguised, or spell shapechanged. But this is not the point.
2- The point is it sounds as stupid to you as killing every cyseleans I am supposed to protect, and then whinning because I can't fulfill the quests sounds stupid to me.

So wasting to much time for either things is stupid.
On the other hand, day/night cycles are not stupid. They are part of any remotely realistic RPG.
Can you imagine Larian offers some players the possibility to kill every NPC around, and no D/N cycle ? And those players can take their time, because actually, they DO have all day !
Larian goes to some hyper realistic empty/fill you cup, and doesn't have D/N cycle ?
This is WRONG.
Just reducing the vision at night/adding some light effects could make a nice feature.

Unless, of course, there are two exacly opposites suns on this fantasy planet, so there are no day/nights... But that sounds a bit of an overstretched explanation.

So If I am wrong, I will be able to finish the game without killing anybody ?

Larian is having his eyes bigger than his belly on this one.


I did. Larian's honesty to shoot themselves in the foot brought me back. Thank you. I know you missed me (april's fool). And btw, it was a great break, I made some great coding/modding for mount and blade warband. I added a knowledge (90%done) and custom settlement features (70% done, it is a huge undertaking) for Rigale.

I don't see how adding this simple feature, that could have some simple effects, (just reducing everybody's sight during "night") could break quests. And gimme a break. We are in 2014, not in 1984. Everything has evolved, coding, ressources, management, project financing...

I agree with Gyson, going for utter time wasting for the "kill everybody" feature is a waste of time, compared to even a basic day/night cycle.

It is not about killing EVERYBODY in the game, but Larian want to give the opportunity to the player to deal with the quest the way they want, some players might want to kill a specific NPC, some others will have a disagrement with another NPC and will kill him and so on so on, the point is to give the players the opportunity to play the way they want with a complete freedom, you might want to kill some of the NPC and some players might want to keep him alive but kill another one.

I am speaking as someone who was a fan of the Day/Night cycles and NPC schedules. I was disappointed at the news that they were cancelled.

I think Larian should learn a lesson from this about biting off more than they can chew. I do not expect the schedules to be patched in, the best-case-scenario I see is a cosmetic day/night cycle, and I would like that (but I am not optimistic).




Uh, yeah they can.

Because Larian are the ones who are working on the game, they are the ones that know how many bugs already need squashing, they know what features are still in progress and need to be added, they know how much budget they have.

Who the heck are you, that you know all that stuff better than Larian does?

Well, for some people, it seems to be. The issue here is that Larian is wasting a terrible amount of energy for a few people, while some basic stuffs will be missing.

Yes, this is truly nice. No sarcasm inside. I really think this is great, especially in multiplayer (which I probably will not try, anyways...)

Here I don't agree. No night stalking assassin, obviously. No waiting for the night to try to sneak past the orcs ...Day stalking psychopath bully, for sure... So don't talk to me about complete freedom. This is a computer RPG utopy.

I like sunny days every minute... I don't like rain, dont like war-fog. dont like to wait until Shopskeepers wake up.

I'ts a game, not reality... so why I need rain or nigths? I need fun!

I actually don't know that stuff better than Larian does. But if they can't add something as simple as something that already exists
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgrkKzEPfbE
(wait for the very end, the night is beautifull), and throw in a "is_night" variable of some sort, and dynamically change the vision ("sight"_variable) of creatures depending on some tags, well, I still think there is an issue here. Even more if you consider that after years of development, there are still thousands of bugs, then some things are wrong.
Again, I am not talking about complex NPC schedules, but really about a simple day/night cycle, with some basic effects.
If a studio can manage to find ways to finish the game while killing everybody, if they can make so that the melee can also set oil aflame with their flaming Swords, they should be able to make a basic day night cycle.

I think you are starting to need some Ibiza spring break

My bad, I did not stated my thought clearly. I meant you have a complete freedom in dealing with your quest by killing the NPC you want^^
I really like rogues sneaking around, hidden in the darkness of the night, and this is a real shame that Larian cannot come up with the night/day schedule (even with sneaking/fight bonus) and I really hope that it will be added (or modded) later. Bit for the time being, I don't diss the work Larian did on NPC's and quest because this is another interesting and complicated feature !!