Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity - Original Sin - General What would be the perfect collector version?

Star Citizen is one of thousands upon thousands of KS projects. Is is less than .01% of crowdfunded projects. You cannot cling to a sole example that amounts to less than .01% and say there is no risk, last I checked Original Sin is nowhere near $41 million in funding....or even $2 million for that matter.

Ultimately it doesn't matter what I think but what Larian thinks and you are basing your guess that Larian got more money from Steam than the 1 mil KS campaign on what?

Not to mention you completely ignored Raze's points.

I didn't ignore his point. I felt I had already addressed it in a previous post and thought it would be unnecessary to touch on this again.

Also, out of all of my points you chose to ignore them all and respond only to my extremely brief semi-joking comment about Star Citizen, which is telling.


As do backers on Steam Early Access take risk, as projects presented there definitely "do not always end in an awsome-kick-ass product". Again, everyone purchasing a game before it's actually completed is taking risks, regardless of the platform you're supporting the project through.

In his blog, Swen acknowledge there are risks from both Kickstarter and Steam Early Access:

"Of course there are people that try to abuse a system like Early Access, just like there are games out there on Kickstarter that will never see the light of day and pre-order campaigns that lie through their teeth about what’ll be in the final game. You can’t have good things without bad things and it seems obvious to me that if you want to have safe sex, you should wear a condom. If you don’t want any bad surprises when buying a game, wait until it’s released, unless you want to support the developer or you want to have an impact on a game by giving early feedback. or you just can’t wait."


I find it extremely odd that you're underplaying (even going as far as completely omitting) the financial gains from Steam Early Access. I also find your comment about who had the more "important" risk to be ridiculous, biased, and just plain wrong for reasons explained in my previous post.

This was also discussed in Swen's blog:

"Pros

More revenue now - In theory, launching on SEAG means an injection of cash right now.
More exposure - Word of mouth marketing seems like it would get a shot in the arm, just from the increased number of people playing the game.
Steam Front Page - Some SEAG games get front-page treatment, and that can be a huge marketing boost.
More feedback before launch - Assuming you’re interested, more players means more feedback. And more feedback could lead to a better game.

The pros on this list are very big pros and speak for themselves. Feedback before release is worth gold, at least if you listen to it. Revenue in the final stages is worth gold because some horrible compromises don’t need to be made. Without it, the chances that you can actually listen to player feedback are lowered because making changes does cost money. And word of mouth, well that’s really what you’re after. That’s worth more than gold, which to be fair hasn’t been having such a good track record of late."

I don't understand why Kickstarter backers are pretending they funded the entire game and took the greatest risk. The ~1 million dollars raised through Kickstarter did not fund this entire project. It's complete nonsense. Both Steam Early Access and Kickstarter provided *additional* funding for the game (and, if I had to make a realistic guess, Steam sales likely provided the bulk of that additional funding).

Whether you traded in money for the promise of an improved version of Divnity : OS on Kickstarter or Steam, you've done it prior to the release of the game and thus took a risk. If you don't want to take my word for it, read Swen's statement again and take his.

And there is no "bigger" or "more important" risk. I spent $160 on multiple "all-sales-are-final" Divinity copies through Steam Early Access with no guarantee that Larian Studios would be able to deliver on all of their promises (in fact, they were unable to). And yet, someone else may own the game through Kickstarter just through a $25 contribution. How do you rate who stood to lose more between those two examples? In the mind of the Kickstarter backer, apparently my risk doesn't exist, or is automatically minimal solely because it was purchased through Steam instead of Kickstarter. Complete and utter nonsense, and yet completely unsurprising as I see this kind of chest-thumping happening between Kickstarter and Steam backers all the time.

Of course (and again), risk all around was minimal. This wasn't your typical crowd-funded project that was still stuck in the concept stage. Divinity : Original Sin existed as a viable product when Larian dove into crowd-funding. We were all always going to get something, the only question was how many of the additional desired features could be worked in, and you can thank *both* funding platforms for making that happen.

And yet, some of you feel only one of those platforms (Kickstarter) deserves any reward. Totally typical of gamers who have this irrational need to possess a digital prize that others do not. I want an item like "Zandalor's Trunks of Epic Intelligence" because I love this game and would like to experience everything it has to offer, and the idea of pants butting into my conversations with its own opinions sounds hilarious. On the other hand, you apparently don't want me to have them because you either need your shiny toys to be just that much more unique, need to feed a feeling of entitlement at the expense of others' enjoyment, or are wrestling with some flawed sense of superiority because you helped fund the game through Kickstarter instead of Steam. I'm so super-happy I could help fund this game for people like that!

I don't think I can really add more to this particular topic that I haven't already said. People will feel the way they feel.

not indeed, the project was mainly (and even if Swen said that the current game is really different than what it was before the kickstarter campaign) funded and based before the kickstarter campaign. However the kickstarter campaign made possible all the changes they did in the game, those "big features were the risk the backers took.
Steam Early Access came later, at a further stage of devlopment, so the risk was not the same.

Talking about funding and money, I really have no evidence, everything below are assomptions.
I guess a small part of the SEA was used for the devlopment of the game, as Swen said, this is the first time Larian took the risk of investing everything in one game !! so I assume that most of the profits of SEA and the upcomming sells will be used for the next game, ("More revenue now - In theory, launching on SEAG means an injection of cash right now." meaning it is a small insurance in case the game is not really profit-making).

regardless this "who-took-the-greatest-risk" thing, Kickstarter had its rewards for their backers, and SEA have its own rewards too (access to the beta and 40€ for the whole game)

In the end, the main purpose of the topicwas not about "should we include the KS digital rewards in the collector" of course many of those who did not (or could not) pledge via kickstarter might like to have them via the CE, but more "what kind of digital content would you like to see in the collector", I found that the idea of a pet in pretty nice indeed.

@Gyson Your posts are going into lala land and you're forgetting that the KS ended in April 2013 and didn't sell on Steam until January 2014....that's 8 months of additional development so Steam would have got half of what it ended up being in January IF that. And you seem to completely have missed Raze's point: if you give free pizza to some friends to help you move only to then give free pizza to those that didn't help then the next time you need help fewer will help because they'll expect pizza anyway.

And please don't attack "people like that". You don't want to know how much I pledged, suffice to say less 100 backers are at my tier or higher. And why are you raging anyway, as I pointed out earlier things like the KS potion and Zandalor's Trunks are likely to be brought to you by modders anyway.

Did anyone argue against SEA getting any rewards? Having kickstarter rewards remain rewards for kickstarter doesn't prevent SEA from getting rewards that may or may not be similar. On the other hand, giving everyone kickstarter rewards means that people who backed the game long before there was a public alpha don't even get a temporary symbolic gesture of thanks (aside from the higher tiers that included content creation or listing in the credits).

This makes the odd assumption that people only showed up to help for pizza (or only helped back the game for digital bonuses).

To listen to some of you, there has (apparently) been no significant progress or additions to the game since the game became available through Steam Early Access, and any money made on that front is being pocketed for future project rather than contributing towards Divinity : OS's development. This is despite the fact that on Divinity : OS Steam's store page, Larian Studios clearly wrote: "In case you're wondering, the money we make via Early Access is being invested back into the game.", but let's keep pretending it hasn't if it helps makes Kickstarter contributors feel more important.

As for my posts, I think they're pretty to the point, but you're certainly welcome to your opinion!

As mentioned earlier, for the same price that the game is available through Steam Early Access, Kickstarter backers received:

2 digital copies of the game
1 digital soundtrack
A listing as a backer in the credits
A Kickstarter forum badge

And that's not even counting the digital rewards (2 Kickstarter potions and Zandalor's Trunks of Epic Intelligence). How can that possibly be labeled as "don't even get a temporary symbolic gesture of thanks". I think an extra copy of the game, the digital soundtrack, the forum badge, and a listing in the credits is a pretty nice "thanks".

For comparison, $40 Steam Early Access backers received a single copy of the game.

Umm....how do I break this down? You do realize there are about 9k backers in the credits right? I'm not really sure how well Steam received Original Sin but how would it have been received if it was half as good as it was when it launched on Steam in January? The risk assumed 8 months earlier was also far greater. A timespan of 8 months in game's development cycle is a huge thing....the risk is at least double. A Steam Early Access attempt with the game in the state it was 8 months earlier would not have been received nearly as well. People play and rate it or recommend it to relatives and so on based on how much they enjoyed what they experienced. You can be upset all you want but things are the way they are for a reason. Not many are comfortable paying for a game long before they get to play it....big difference between "pay us now and keep on waiting" and "pay us now and start playing as we bring constant content and updates flowing". Keep this in mind the next time you see a Kickstarter clock ticking....act or miss out.

If you are seriously asking this question, then you must pay absolutely zero attention to the state of games available on Steam Early Access, or how well they do. There is a reason developers go this route.

The version of Divinity they showed at the time of announcing the Kickstarter program would have done just fine on Steam Early Access. You may be surprised to hear that even then it was much further into development than many of the games offered through that program.



I completely disagree with what you've said here. See earlier posts in this thread from me for detailed reasonings.

ouh easy !! I said that there was only assumptions, of course some improvments have been made, but I cannot recall for any major feature which was not anounced during the kickstarter campaign... and as Larian is a firm, we should assume that indeed, they need to spare money if they want to make another game...
this said, I don't feel "more important" I just stated that at the time kickstarter backers pledged, the risk was "higher". For the record, I just bought the basic version (silly me, I have not noticed the weresheep Tshirt which was added later) without any digital reward (except the potion which was basically included) because I am more interested in physical rewards and I hopped that they will release a collector version (with something a bit more appealing than the clothmap ^^). So basically, I pledge in kickstarter just to support Larian.
I don't really care that non-backers get the kickstarter potion or Zandalor's underwears (anyway, as it was said, you will probably be able to get a mod to get them) but I would be glad if Larian would come up with new digital-useless-fun content for the collector edition

It was in alpha, lots of place holders, missing content not yet implemented and on and on and on. Exactly my point, I DO pay attention to that. But that's still in a near feature complete state, or at least in a place where it's withing touch(few months) of being feature complete. How would half of that alpha(not just size but features too) have left you? I seriously doubt you'd even be discussing anything other than a refund on these forums.

You can disagree all you want but that's the way things are, I've been gaming for over two decades and followed games in development closely for over a decade. Really successful games sell hundreds of thousands of copies or millions of copies....I do believe this game will be successful, but less than 20k took a leap for it long before they could play it.

Getting features implemented in their most basic state is one thing. Getting them to a working, polished, bug-free state is quite another. I think you're making the assumption that the money raised through Kickstarter was able to single-handedly pay for all the promised stretch goals. And yet, despite receiving funding from both Kickstarter and Steam they've been open about going over-budget (and not being able to add the final stretch goal). It should be obvious that Kickstarter alone has not been able to finance all the costs.

If Larian Studios says the money made via Early Access is being invested back into the game, why doubt them? I feel like we're picking and choosing which statements to believe here, which is a little too convenient for my tastes.

Case in point:


Or, as Larian Studios seems to believe, the problem has been with "word of mouth" and getting information about the game out. Just because X number of people pledged on Kickstarter doesn't mean that's all the people in the world who were willing to back this game earlier in development. Divinity : OS wasn't even on my radar until it showed up on Steam's front page one day, and this type of game is probably my favorite. Not everyone follows Kickstarter (that, coupled with a lack of media attention), which is why games on Steam Early Access do so much better comparatively.

I don't even like Steam, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend the benefits reaped through Larian Studio's decision to make the game available through Steam's Early Access program weren't enormous. I am just in awe that some of you are trying to play them down in an attempt to make a point.

How ironic and quite convenient seeing as you just ignored most of the two posts you quoted to take a couple bits out of context.

I didn't bother to quote this part:


..because my response would have been "That's just nonsense.", and I thought it was better left unsaid.

To you maybe, you very quickly and carelessly discard the meaning of 8 months of development and ~1mil in funding....that is surely just nonsense, the game made zero progress in that time and an SEA release then would have been just as good as it is now. My point stands.....you pick and choose your quotes more than anyone here....and not just by cutting them out of a reply. Don't be a hypocrite, don't point fingers when you are guilty as sin yourself.

Why I am continuing to bother with this, I just don't know.

The problem here is you misunderstood what I said/meant and are now trying to beat me over the head with that confusion in a public showing of superiority. I guess I left out a key word that would have made it crystal clear, but I thought the context was enough. Apparently not.

When I said "I feel like we're picking and choosing which statements to believe here,", I was specifically referring to statements from the developers (which have been repeated in this thread).

Aside from pointing out that you ignored a fairly large response from me (save for a joke at the end about Star Citizen), I was not accusing anyone of cherry-picking our personal statements here when I made that comment. I try and crop for space just as much as anyone. If I only grab a snippet when quoting response, it is either:

1) ..for space/spam prevention reasons.
2) ..because I already covered something in a previous response, and don't feel like repeating myself again because it will likely just get ignored a second/third/fourth time.
3) ..because someone is saying something that really doesn't warrant a response (e.g. "I think RPGs are fun!")
3) ..because I feel someone just made a ridiculous comment and (to me) it's not even worth responding to or acknowledging. The whole "if you can't say anything nice.." approach.
4) ..some combination of the above.

The difference between our opinions is perspective...

I think you missed my point, it's a matter of perspective really. You see it as paying a price and value for it. You most likely didn't know about the KS and feel really bad you missed out. Been there, Wasteland 2 by inXile. But what you have to realize is that that kickstarter was enormously important to them and there is a very real possibility that without it there may have been no Original Sin or turned out a great deal less than what it currently is(despite still missing a lot of the levels that will be in the final game). It's understandable. So next time there is a KS, don't miss out, it's that simple. Putting your faith in a game you won't touch for a long time takes patience and trust and assuming a very real risk(even for a game like Original Sin which had some content done and may have seen some form of release without KS) that you lose your money but also get rewarded for that faith, no matter how meaningless you think it is. It's not, and regardless of what you think, still had a very real impact on the Alpha released in January and its reception on Steam....and yes, the risk for SEA even for the alpha as it was, was still a lot lower than during the initial KS campaign. I thing it's quite visible that the game made enormous leaps toward completion from January to now(less than three months) so switch to the beta and then think how meaningful three times that amount of time was.

RAAAAAAAAAAAAH Swen, you nasty vicious goblin !!
It was like you said :


why, why, WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?!!

Good one!

I was intrigued,when Collectors Edition will be in the shops I would buy and take it with seller and teleport into my home whispering: My precious, My precious!!!!

P.S-AND NO ONE can stop me-))