Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity Original Sin - Beta Durability/Repair feedback.

You could also have equipment at below 50% durability (or something similar) be somewhat reduced in effectiveness. This would both make logical sense, and address Gyson's concern above. I think the overall result would be a huge improvement over the current system, and sensible enough to be accessible to all players. To summarize the basic idea:

Repair 1 (equipment below 50% durability suffers reduced damage/armor rating, but there is never a permanent reduction in a piece of equipment's maximum durability):
- Tier 1 Equipment (non-magical) is repaired to 60% Durability
- Tier 2 Equipment (Magical) is repaired to 40% Durability
- Tier 3 Equipment (Rare) is repaired to 33% Durability
- Tier 4 Equipment (Legendary) is repaired to 20% Durability
- Tier 5 Equipment (Super-Awesome) is repaired to 10% Durability
.................................................
Repair 5 (at this level, in addition to the below durability enhancements, all repaired equipment receives a slight boost in damage/armor rating):
- Tier 1 Equipment (non-magical) is repaired to 150% Durability
- Tier 2 Equipment (Magical) is repaired to 130% Durability
- Tier 3 Equipment (Rare) is repaired to 100% Durability
- Tier 4 Equipment (Legendary) is repaired to 100% Durability
- Tier 5 Equipment (Super-Awesome) is repaired to 100% Durability

Yup, seems we need a topic on the need and saving of the lockpick skill more than repair if that magic trick is the case.
I've seen many a locked container destroyed, usually by traps, but it's rather hard to note if all items got out of just a few.

It does seem rather a balance issue if with magic you can just, costless, destroy doors. What's lockpicking good for then? Nothing.
Then again, maybe the trick only works for soft wooden doors, and there are doors out there that are immune to any kind of damage who need lockpick? Still, if they are few, it's still not saving the skill.
Hmmmm... yeah, does seem worthy of a big discussion and subsequent fix.

EDIT:
And I still want to see repair skill of a NPC on the barter screen somewhere so repair isn't trial+error with each NPC using it on your items.

As I mentioned before, a decrease in effectiveness as durability loss increases has been an interesting mechanic in other games, but I worry about implementing it this late in development. As fights drag on we already to deal with a dwindling resource (health). With this change you have your characters growing weaker with every turn as weapons and armor become less effective. It essentially raises the difficulty on every fight in the game.


The rest of this I still feel is overly complicated, where five different tiers of Repair are being juggled with five different tiers of equipment, and the player is expected to remember a list of results 25 lines long.

I like the idea I suggested (it's explained in the original post) not because I suggested it, but because it's such a simple change that can be easily relayed to the player.

When they look at an item with durability damage they can clearly see in the tooltip that it needs X level of Repair skill to fix (it does this now already). Beyond this, remove permanent durability loss from all items except the repair tool. The repair tool simply has to have the following text added to its toolitip "This tool can not be repaired and will wear out after repeated use.". If necessary, add "..slows down wear and tear on your repair tool." to the tooltip of the Repair skill itself. And that's it - the whole problem seems resolved and the entire system becomes self explanatory with minimal developer effort.

Is there something wrong with that much simpler setup?

Gyson - sorry, I didn't see your OP edit earlier, but something like that system could work as well.

My only problem (if I'm understanding you correctly when you say "Increased levels of temporary durability loss require higher levels of the Repair skill") is that in your system, you could have a situation where you'd be able to repair an item (fully?) at a certain ability level when it's at 31% durability, but would no longer be able to repair it at all when it drops to 30%. If that's what you're saying, it would seem kind of weird - but correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, I would add the ability to slightly enhance the effectiveness of equipment beyond its "100%" value at Repair level 5. It would spice things up a bit, and really be an appropriate reward for players willing to invest so many ability points.

Not much, really. Mikus and I were discussing a similar system on the last page before we discussed the five-tier system.

http://www.larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=486844#Post486844

http://www.larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=486845#Post486845

What are your thoughts on those ideas, and Mikus's response that you'd have to make Repair Hammers either rare or expensive?

Ninjaed by Stabbey! In addition to scrapping the whole concept of permanent max durability reduction, I guess I'd like any repair system to ensure:

1) There's no unrealistic equipment durability/quality "threshold" such that with a particular piece of equipment at a certain ability level, under the threshold you can do nothing, but above the threshold you can do anything.
2) Beyond the gold savings of not having to ask a merchant to repair equipment for you, there should also be a nice little "extra" for investing in the skill (e.g. the ability to slightly enhance equipment above 100% at level 5).

The way it works right now is that (made up numbers) an item at 40/50 durability requires a Repair skill of 1 to fix. An item at 30/50 durability requires a Repair skill of 2 to fix. And so on. It's shown in the tool tip of the damaged item. I'm fine with this because it basically encourages players to keep an eye on their equipment and maintain it, discourages them from using weapons to open locked doors/containers, and penalizes them for neglecting it. I'm not changing or adding that system, just carrying it over.


Isn't this already a function of the Crafting skill? As long as you have the appropriate skill level there, you can already enhance the stats on weapons and armor. Doesn't being able to do it with Repair skill as well seem like overkill (and steals away from the importance of the Crafting skill)?


I think repair tools (hammers) need to actually be much more frequently stocked and a lot cheaper. Right now they're priced with the idea that you buy one of them and it lasts forever. What I was talking about was moving permanent durability loss to the repair tool itself, which makes it a consumable. If it's a consumable, it needs to be readily available and much cheaper, especially if players are expected to repair often or be penalized for neglecting their gear.

With the permanent durability loss on the repair tool, you can either base it on the amount of durability points restored on an object, or based on frequency of use (each use of the tool/skill deducts X points from the tools durability). I prefer the latter approach because it greatly improves the usefulness of the Repair skill (players with a higher Repair skill can use the repair tool less often, while being able to repair greater amounts of temporary durability loss - so they save money by needing less consumable repair tools by investing more points in the skill).

I don't really see the current setup (where, with a Repair skill of 1, you can fix an item at 40/50 durability, but not 30/50 durability (without a Repair skill of 2)) as being unrealistic. I would expect a novice to sometimes run into something he can't fix. "That's too badly damaged and beyond my skill. I can't fix that; I'd probably do more harm than good. We need a professional.".

Or, are you talking about something else?

I'm not really that fond of the idea of having to repair constantly to prevent being able to repair at all, unless you spend 3+ points.

Fortunately, item replacement happens to me fast enough durability was completely ignorable for me so far, I would have that to change and we need to spend time repairing after each battle...

No, that's what I mean. It seems very strange to me that one extra nick in a dagger will cause the player to throw up his hands and say "well, I can't do anything with this anymore," when he could repair it easily just before. There's also the major "annoyance" factor that Hassat Hunter mentioned: "I'm not really that fond of the idea of having to repair constantly to prevent being able to repair at all, unless you spend 3+ points." So I guess that's why I'd prefer a system where even if you let your equipment go for a bit (also think: long battles!), at a given level of the repair ability, you can still always do something with it.

EDIT: So even though the lists Stabbey posted may make that system look complicated, that's only to demonstrate the underlying mechanics. In fact, under that system, all a player would need to understand is that the better he/she is at repair, the more total durability his/her repaired equipment will regain whenever it's repaired - there's no need to memorize the list. This would also avoid the micro-management built into the other system ("I'd better repair this before it drops below 31 durability!") mentioned above. That said, I would recommend not being able to do anything with higher tier equipment until you reach a higher ability level - otherwise, you'd be able to do a lot with just one point in the ability, assuming you didn't mind repairing things after almost every use.

But as for your points further above, I didn't realize Crafting could enhance a particular piece of equipment beyond its standard quality, without transforming it into a "new" piece of equipment - or can it?

Didn't read much about this topic. But I think this topic really needs working / fixing. I ended up with replacing weapons and no repairing at all.

Yes! To OP.

I also am not fond of repair thresholds, where one point over means you can't do anything without another point into Repair. Sometimes you forget, sometimes there's a really long battle. Daggers lose 2 points of durability per attack (if both frames of the attack animation score a hit), so even if you go into a battle with it fully repaired, it could fall below the threshold without you doing anything wrong.

I'm not sure that the punishment for failing to repair in a timely fashion should be "you can't repair at all, tough luck". As I've said, Repair is a support ability, and so it's going to get fewer points than most other ones. The repair thresholds act to punish you for not having a lot of points into Repair, which is very likely because Repair is a secondary ability.


For reference, I'll repeat my proposed idea for Repair: each use of a Repair Hammer repairs 20% of the item's total durability, and you can use a Repair hammer as many times as you have levels in Repair (so Repair 1 is 1 use of the hammer, Repair 5 is 5 uses of the hammer). That does not punish you for not having enough points into Repair, instead, more points gives you a benefit by reducing the amount of Repair Hammers you have to use. It's a carrot instead of a stick.

EDIT: Or what I think is Gyson's idea, where a Repair Hammer has say 100 Durability, and each point of hammer durability can repair one point of equipment damage. If you use it to repair something which has 47/50 durability, your Repair Hammer now has 97 durability.

I'm not sure I'm a fan of basing the system on consumable repair hammers, unless the rate of equipment degradation were decreased very significantly compared to the current beta. I wouldn't want to have to cart around dozens of hammers just to get through a long dungeon - that's maybe exaggerating a little, but not much, if you'd only get 1-5 uses out of one hammer.

Anyway, I think I'm taking us in circles now. So as long as Larian does away with the current permanent max durability decreases, and instead implements a system that both rewards players for investing in Repair and doesn't require tedious micromanagement (e.g. durability thresholds below which nothing can be done with a piece of equipment, needing to buy a lot of hammers, etc.), I'll be good.

I think we're making some assumptions about the amount constant repair that's really going to be required. You might, for example, lose 5 durability over the course of a battle and have a range of 30 durability points between shifts in skill requirements. If that were the case, is expecting a player to do some checking on and maintenance on his gear once every 6 battles really that unreasonable?

I do think it's realistic to have a point where the problem (durability damage) exceeds ones skill to address (repair) it. At some point someone is going to run into something that is simply beyond their skill to repair. To the player, that line is a number (e.g. 170/200 vs 169/200), but the number simply represents an idea. In reality, 170/200 would lead to someone thinking "I'm not sure if I can fix this.. it's badly damaged, but let's see what I can do.. (tense time passes). Whew, I managed to do it. That was really touch and go; let's not let it get that bad off again.". And 169/200 is the same speech, except the result is a failure. "If only I had gotten around to repairing this a little sooner." It's not simply a matter of "I got this easy-peasy" and "sorry, that's impossible for me". The gradient takes place in the player's imagination.

The important thing here is that even without a huge investment in the Repair skill, you can still repair anything as long as you remain diligent. A higher Repair skill gives you the convenience and flexibility of more wiggle room, and lower cost (as you use the repair tool less often). But even a level 1 Repair skill is cheaper than allowing NPCs to repair it (as it should be), and can ultimately repair any item - provided you haven't let the quality degrade into oblivion through neglect.


I haven't checked in the beta, but in the alpha you could take a piece of armor and, through crafting, add extra resistances to it (crushing, slashing, etc). I think the armor value received a buff as well, but don't quote me on that last part.

Random thought - add a "repair all" button. Having to repair each piece of equipment individually is a boring time sink.

Oh, and I'll need to check out crafting more - thanks for the info Gyson.

Numbers can be changed.

Another idea, maybe better than a flat "repairs 20%, no matter how much durability the thing has":

Repair Hammers contain 300 charges. Each charge can repair 1 point of Durability. If you have Repair 1, you can use up 60 of the charges, leaving you with 240. With Repair 1, you cannot use a Repair Hammer which has 240 or fewer charges. "Not enough Repair."

Using charges 180-240 requires Repair 2.*
...
Repair 5 lets you use up charges 1-60 (after you use up them all, the thing breaks).

Yes, you'll have to carry around a few repair hammers. Too bad.


* The reason to count down instead of up is because of all the potential headaches that could ensue if you transferred partly-used repair hammers back and forth between people with different levels of repair. That sounds like it would take a lot of code to script and be buggy.




Different weapons use different amounts of durability. As I said, a dagger uses 2 durability per attack.

Your approach may be realistic, but realism is not automatically the best way. That system is mostly punishing players for not micromanging all their equipment for all their party members after every battle. I think there are better ways to make points in Repair useful.

To make your system a bit fair, forget your zillion speech bubbles idea - by the time you see them, it could be too late for them to do any good. No, you need to be crystal clear where the "red line" for when you would be unable to repair things. If you moused over a dagger, you'd have to see "needs Repair 2 to repair below X durability" at the very least. NOT just if you have a repair hammer equipped - because you might not - but all the time.

Seems a bit overcomplicated. I've got to think on this a bit more.

I've been thinking about this, and it's time for a big long in-depth response on why I think the suggested changes would still make repair unwanted, especially the 'the lower the current durability the higher the skill';

* You will need to keep your items upgraded constantly. Meaning a lot of repair hammers (using the dispensible hammer idea). Even if they stack, having to constantly fix your armor before the 'dead point' just isn't fun. You've got no leniecy, forget it once, get a long fight, you're done for. The result would still be exactly the same as currently; you simply keep an item till it breaks (considering 1 durability or full, it does not matter), then discard (sell) it. Most of the time long before it breaks, but I don't know if that speed keeps later in the game too.
Not only do you not have to annoyingly fix your gear after almost every fight then, you can even get boosts rather than be rewarded with... well... exactly nothing!
This is true most for weapons (who deteriote faster than armor), but again, you get more weapons than armor as well to compensate for that.
* If weapons and armor wont last that long, the +75% durability wear reduction special will help out. Considering (IMO) the entire list is made of one option worse than the other, it's no loss, there's nothing really valuable anyway. I give everyone the "revive with 1HP instead of dying" (ridiculous powerful), one person animal talk and... ehm... +2 ability, +1 stat? I'm really wondering what else to pick later on. So this would make a good option for that.
* This alternate repair-suggestion thus, as I see it, wont change a thing. The only thing it would is add tedium, tedium circumvented by just switching to another weapon, which doesn't have a "has to be within 10%" limit. As others said, bonusses with repair could be a good motivation too.

So, sorry, Gyson, but I think it just isn't good enough to save repair. It's a step up from the current method. But by holding true to one of it's greatest weakness (increasing repair as damage increases) it wont change anything. Other skill upgrades are making your character better, and not just aimed to make your life a little less miserable. Nothing in the game *should* be aimed at making your life as miserable as possible "unless you pay for this"... reminds me a bit of free to play MMO tactics.

EDIT; Why do you guys suddently all post here too?
Yup, also not a fan of the 300 charges thing as suggested. You really want to carry around half-depleted items around your inventory? I want more stuff to be stacked, not more stuff around the inventory to keep track of, even if the charges remain showed obviously so I knew which repair hammer was still viable. It's a long way before repair 5 you know...

What "zillion speech bubbles idea" are you referring to? I don't think anyone mentioned anything about speech bubbles.