Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity Original Sin - Beta Abusing container loot mechanics with saved games.

If I could put some input..
Why would you do that? why not just control yourself?
It just feels silly..

Probably because a fixed seed is also more resource-consuming. For all intents and purposes a container is dead to the game as long as it's unopened. Only when it is, it will become a part of savegame content. And it can be completely wiped if there's a path of no return (though I am not sure if Original Sin will be like that).
With a seed like yours ALL containers will need to be logged from the start. Increasing loading times, saving times, savegame space usage, etc.

OMG people...
"Larian, please, I am def, blind, a psychotic murderer, a compulsive chest opener, an exploiter, a rule fondamentalist, and I can't live without a day/night cycle.
Could you make DoS just for me, please?"

Godammit ppl, aren't there other more important things to do, like fixing and balancing for normal players ?

No, there are other ways to handle it. Just to name a handful of examples, most containers can be kept as is, while only specific special-case containers are handled differently. You can also populate these as the player enters a specific region (which could be a specific building, a dungeon, etc). You can also seed based on something specific (something about the characters data), which would give you the same results from the same container regardless of reloads, unless you returned to that chest at a much later point when substantial changes have occurred with that character.

Silly or not, if it were just a matter of relying on players to control themselves, game design would be a whole lot simpler. It's an unfortunate necessity to keep things reasonably balanced.

There are better ways to seed and spawn loot. Why not use them? The only thing at risk is the ability to abuse the system. That's a goal worth exploring.

How many people, really, reload a zillion times on each container?

I do agree it's case of 'restrain yourself, no point wasting dozens of manhours changing this' especially considering any alternative has the equal chance to exploit it.

How can you restrain killing summons you HAVE to kill?

True, but one requires active effort to reload over and over again, and your benefit is essentially random loot. The other you can just sit back doing nothing and get free guaranteed XP.

It's worked for all Divinity games so far, why suddenly change it now?

Because X wrongs don't make a right?

Short of being worried about losing the ability to exploit the mechanic, why not fix it?

And, no, I still don't see a difference. Why are you describing reloading a saved game as if it's some massive undertaking?

I'd much prefer more meaningful loot to drop from bosses and hard encounters. Stuff that is handplaced and makes sense for the encounter. All I ever get are 1 handed weapons lol.

Sounds like you want more powerful loot? You do realize that the one handed weapon you are getting is balanced for that as a drop even though it is random? What if it was a one handed weapon hand placed with hand set stats and a name, yet it was exactly the power and quality as the random loot you got?

Exactly. Multiplayer also makes it really annoying to have ppl that want to save cheat all the time.

I don't get it Gyson, you argued your case already in another thread about this very topic and that wasn't good enough? You have to start a new one? Rather pretentious don't you think?

Well, it's worth bringing to the developer's attention in case they don't want players to exploit the mechanic that way.

I will say though that right now, the loot could probably be a little bit better.

I don't get it Gyson, you argued your case already in another thread about this very topic and that wasn't good enough? You have to start a new one? Rather pretentious don't you think?

He is very good at this technique, he's done it multiple times. I've long since realized he's a troll of the worst sort: the kind lacking self-awareness.

You are both clearly hopeless and not very bright. Thanks for the laugh, though.

So are we taking the civility gloves off? I mean, you spent several threads whining about Hiver being insulting and here you directly attack? I mean, if direct personal attacks are ok, I can oblige, but somehow I think you will throw tantrums when you become the target of such.

Grow up kiddo.

As if you haven't been insulting in a number of other threads. My tolerance for people like you and a few other trolls on this forum has reached an all time low, so deal with it "kiddo".

Plus, the chances of you admitting your ridiculous error and apologizing for chastising me over nothing were next to nil, so I figured I might as well go with the blunt approach on this one. Even now you're trying to bluff your way through this and save face by going on the offensive instead of addressing your screw-up. Predictable, if nothing else.

If you can't handle being called out, think before calling someone out in the future. You wasted my time with your nonsense.

[*]Seeded crappy loot in a major reward actually feels worse than RNG crappy loot. I didn't just get sucker punched: I got sucker punched however many hours ago I started the game, and I have no recourse to judicious save-scumming to keep the fun from draining out.

Fact: The range of possible treasures which it is possible to be generated is so large that the chances of getting any particular one or combination of all-desireable treasures is so small that it's not worth anyone's time to reload, never mind being worth anyone's time to re-code so reloading no longer works.

Hey! Archmage: content in the thread! Excellent. Two points.

That kind of, "Look at this! Isn't it great? Say goodbye, now." is frustrating as hell. Which said, I'd still rather have RNG than seeded numbers.

• Fixed results - whether hand-placed or seeded - just makes me feel like a game is on rails.
• Seeded crappy loot in a major reward actually feels worse than RNG crappy loot. I didn't just get sucker punched: I got sucker punched however many hours ago I started the game, and I have no recourse to judicious save-scumming to keep the fun from draining out.

Especially in an ongoing beta, spending the time to try to max out my characters' kit is so not happening.


Note: the meaning of the term "fun" in this comment involves not finding disappointment enjoyable. If your personal definition of fun is somehow more moral that that, never mind: this comment doesn't apply to you and we really don't need to argue about it.

...serious......serious people?....ya all must be getting really bored..this is the new focal point to complain about?

"Hey that player reloaded their game!"
"The economy in the game is ruined!|
"...Wait..what happens in their game does not effect mine" <- Happy face.

...serious......serious people?....ya all must be getting really bored..this is the new focal point to complain about?

This thread was created months ago. Please realize that as new players join the community they're going to have opinions they'll want to share and, as a result, some of these older topics will surface again with additional feedback.

Also, a thread doesn't always have to be a bug report - sometimes it can simply be feedback or discussion regarding the game. As with all discussions, if they don't interest you personally then don't feel obligated to read them. It will make your forum browsing experience much better (and likely improve the experience of others as they won't have to see "OMGWTF-RUSERIOUS" style responses).

oh don't like how I respond? don't read it~ will improve your browsing experience~ ^_^. I express how I feel~ and right now I feel like people are way to worried about things that will not effect their game in any way~

Til the games release I will continue to pop on and sigh and post on some of the topics created. ^_^

"right now" ? You always feel like people are "way too worried" about some aspect of the game. Honestly, I'm not sure if the alpha/beta process is for you if you can't handle seeing feedback.


Well, at least you're consistent if nothing else. Like I said, I'm not sure if the alpha/beta process is for you. You're not going to see too many "game's perfect, don't change a thing!" posts during that period.

I'm sure you have more to say.

I'm not sure I understand what all the fuss is about. How am I harmed if someone wants to camp a chest or two for drops? It doesn't affect me or my game in any way. This is not an MMO. No one is gaining any kind of an advantage over anyone else here.

Frankly, I don't think it matters what people do in the game or how they want to play it. If they're enjoying it, more power to them.

I do agree up to a point, I would not like the game to have fixed loot (like you get the staff of whatchamacallit when killing baroness whoshe), but there should be a minor intelligence to loot distribusion. Say for intstance games like Icewind dale had fixed loot in some containers, but they also had "x chance of this item being here" and "the item in here is a random dagger/random staff/random sword" etc.

Fact: The range of possible treasures which it is possible to be generated is so large that the chances of getting any particular one or combination of all-desireable treasures is so small that it's not worth anyone's time to reload, never mind being worth anyone's time to re-code so reloading no longer works.

I can't say I agree with this. Unless you intentionally try to work out/seek information on how loot generation is implemented, to the player they open a chest and rewards are within. Whether the items were determined the moment you opened the chest or hours/days/weeks earlier shouldn't matter.

At least, not until you start to try and game the system, at which point it does matter.

If you find yourself in a situation where you are going outside the flow of the game to "correct" a situation (e.g. essentially "cheating" by save scumming because you're unhappy with the items in a chest) something is failing, perhaps on more than one level. The fact that you feel it's necessary to do, the fact that the game enables you to do it, etc.. the game is no longer be played as designed at that point.

And yes, I feel comfortable saying that about the design so long as save scumming isn't proudly listed somewhere with a bullet point in a game's feature list. Until that day it's a shortcoming being abused, not a feature being utilized.

If we go by that logic it's not worth plugging any mechanic that can be exploited. You can just choose not to abuse them and if other people do, why worry about it?

I'm not a fan of that thinking, personally. Really, the best thing you can do (in my opinion) is report your findings and let the developers decide whether they want to address it or not.

As with all exploits, you will always have people that object to having them fixed. I'm not saying that is the case with everyone here; many seem more concerned with Larian's schedule. I think the developers are smart enough to handle their own scheduling however, and can prioritize as they see fit.

Thanks, Gyson, for once again explaining to me how I am wrong about my own reactions and experiences when I'm playing games.

God knows how I'd get along if I had to figure myself out by myself. Don't ever change.

Thanks as well for explaining to me that I have fun wrong. Cheating in single-player games has been a burgeoning problem in the Newell household for decades, now, and no-one ever seems to have stopped to Think Of The Children.

I can only hope someday to be able to make up to you the incalculable damage I must have done to your enjoyment of your leisure time, not to mention the legions of poor developers whose lives I must have blighted by my appalling abuse of their hearts' work. If only someone had warned them of the terrible mistakes they made in enabling me to trammel their art. If only I had listened to those wiser than I, when they warned and admonished me.

I am saddened and ashamed. I can only thank God I never took up solitaire: the potential social damage doesn't bear consideration.

Note for clarity (although I don't really expect you'll read this one either): I am not calling you a child. I don't believe or mean to imply that you are a child, or behave like a child, or that I think either of those is the case. I am using a common touchpoint for melodrama and unwarranted, intrusive concern, as I reject what I consider to be your annoyingly judgmental use of terms like "cheat" and "abuse" in this context.

teehee, you sir need to google what Personal means. You "bugs" are more personal dislikes in a mostly single player game. (I count the co op as single ish player since its just two people, not an MMO setting.)

Edit. Ya know I cannot wait for the good laughs when people start sharing mods you do not approve of \o/

Congratulations on just trolling away with a comment that doesn't actually have anything to do with what I just said. Did you even read before you posted or did you just have at it the moment you saw me respond to someone?

So predictable.

Why don't you do us all a favor and explain to everyone why you apparently think "reporting your findings and letting the developers decide whether they want to address it or not" is, apparently, a bad thing in Ellary's razor sharp mind.

This should be oh so interesting..

So.. I'm looking at my response to you, and then looking at your response to me, and wondering how in the heck mine warranted yours.

...snipped...

That is really the only part of my statement that I think could have been taken the wrong way. If that was the case.. maybe just ask me to clarify next time?

Oh Gyson your true colors show once again~ I am delighted you find my mind razor sharp ~

Let me try and explain this as simple as I can to you.
..wish I could add in pictures might be easier for you (<- that buttercup was trolling)

Anyway a reason to report something as "bad" or "broken" or as you claim "Poorly handled" would be something that effects the game in a negative way. A truly game breaking error or exploit.
Example would be "Oh gosh if you hold alt while leveling up you have infinite points to spend."

Things like that ^ .. your complaint being it awhile ago or whatever was small minded thinking. Run with that as you will about trolling blah blah~ You wanting to control how others play their game does annoy me. Larian has enough to do then review things that are not even broken..

Honestly if people reloading for better loot bothers you so much..*thumbs up* You brought it to more players attention to do this now...but then again not like it will effect your game o.o other then driving you crazy knowing people are doing the evil deed!

what are you going to do seriously when people start altering the loot tables in the creation tools? Or wait do you want Larian to back out of what they promised and not give the tools...cause it doesn't fit with your view of how the players should play?

Typing is fun~ I know none of this is sinking in~ and when your brain attempts to understand it instantly sees "troll troll troll troll... troll!" Anywho have fun with it~ my Razor sharp mind and I are going to trololol through trollsville and enjoy gaming and happily let others enjoy games how they please.

You've also progressed to full troll mode now and are clearly just out to derail this discussion.

You're correct. The heavy sarcasm was pointless and probably unwarranted. I've had a shitty week, and I lost it momentarily and unloaded. My apologies.

We differ fundamentally on the nature of single player games and the relationship between players and developers in the use of such games.

I have mostly given up on arguing with the opinions you are presenting on these issues - for one reason or another it almost never goes anywhere productive. I should not even be reading this thread, let alone contributing.

Thank you for the restraint in this case.

It's really not my business, but you might consider using it more widely; I don't think the exchanges of vitriol reflect well on anyone involved.

And I'm obviously in a glass house regarding lack of restraint, so ... stopping now. Again.

Ten years ago, Divine Divinity had the same RNG loot mechanics with possible reloadings as D:OS now has... So, I guess Larian wouldn't have gone the same route ten years later if this mechanics had caused them any great problems (with player feedback, reviews, techical problems or something like this)

One would think right? I mean, if the OP had a sound argument, you would think in all this time there would be even a shred of evidence to support their position that this system would lead to major game design imbalances. /shrug

No worries. There are four individuals (not you) on this forum who I have long lost all respect for because of their rude behavior and/or lack of maturity, and I'm never surprised when they show up in the center of some trolling and mudslinging. For them I have generally adapted a "treat as treated" policy.. which would account for the lack of restraint on some posts and not others.

Thanks for the explanation.

^ oh good laugh, whew thanks!

Anyway as other have stated this is not an undesired element nor a broken element. Just you complaining cause you cannot control others game. The amount of rage I am excited to see from you when mods start getting released!

oh and thank you Larian!! for focusing on the actual broken parts of the game! super excited for release!!!

Is this a case of simpler minds being easily amused?

I'm not sure where you got it in your head that I am at all concerned with what people can achieve with mods when I have been referring specifically to questionable gameplay the official unmodded campaign allows. It's obvious this is a preaching point you just keep throwing out because you're under some goofy impression that it makes a point. The only point you're making is that you've missed the point (again). But thanks for bumping my concerns to the front page again.


I thank Larian for providing players with the opportunity to offer feedback. It's a shame you instead use it as platform in which to behave like an immature child by often bringing nothing but "trololol" noises to these discussions.

Every time you find a topic you disagree with, rather than just posting your opinion and leaving it at that you make every effort to derail the entire thread to the point where the discussion is ruined. That is your way of censoring opinions on the forum. While I can't speak for them, I suspect the people who are actually interested in having a discussion don't appreciate that.

And yet you persist time and time again regardless. Every post of yours in this thread (all 7 of them, and I have no doubt #8 will be the same) essentially states the same thing: one line insisting there is no issue and thanking Larian for the great game (just so you can pretend you're "staying on topic") with the remainder/majority of your post being dedicated to heckling.

It is very petty, very disrespectful, and very inconsiderate of you to player and developer alike, especially when the developers have repeatedly said they want our feedback. It is not for you to decide which feedback they hear.

It doesn't have to be a "major game design imbalance" to warrant a change, just an undesirable element for a developer. The developers at Firaxis Games, for example, did not attempt to limit the effectiveness of save-scumming in XCOM EU because it was a "major game design imbalance", they did it because the behavior was counter to the vision they had for their game.

Of course, what is undesirable behavior or what creates an imbalance worth addressing will differ from one developer to the next. All one can do is bring it to the attention of the developers (and then spend umpteen pages dealing with criticism and personal attacks from people who fail to understand that very simple concept).

Something to consider: I just pointed out in a recent bug thread that candles sell for quite a bit of gold, and asked if that was working as intended (as a lot of candles are available for looting in the tutorial).

Should I have brought that to the developers attention in the first place? Going by the flawed logic many have argued here, the answer would appear to be "no", since it is up to each individual to gather those candles from the environment or not, and one person making ~1000 gold in the tutorial does not in any way impact anyone else since this is a single player game.

Someone else might argue that those candles make a visit to the tutorial feel required rather than optional, or cite concern that all that extra gold impacts the difficulty of early gameplay. None of that is all that dissimilar to the option of save-scumming in front of key containers to trivialize the RNG design and obtain better rewards, in the sense that they are both optional, their impact on the game is debatable, this is not an MMO where your method of play has an impact on mind, any fix can be worked around with the editor, blah blah blah excuse excuse excuse.

In the end it doesn't matter. If it looks like it might not belong in the game - raise the issue during the beta and let the developers sort it out. They're the most qualified to determine what belongs in their game or not. Opinions and debates on the impact on gameplay are fine, but arguments from the peanut gallery criticizing that the issue was raised in the first place are just stupid and unhelpful.

Because most developers consider someone reloading saves to be conscience decision to avoid the outcome that was given. That is, a sane developer would see save scumming as nothing different than hex editing.

All a sane developer can do is develop the game to be played as they intended within the scope of internal play. Worrying about what happens outside of that is not a rational argument, especially when it concerns games.

Which is an INTERNAL game issue. That is, a person can play the game within its intended goals (ie collecting things to sell) and the balance can be upset by the fact that candles are selling for too much. That means, an unsuspecting person can imbalance their game simply by playing it as intended.

Save scumming is not an intentional approach. Only a flipping idiot would think that saving and reloading in excess is a "normal and intended part of game play". So... those who do it KNOW they are cooking the books, giving themselves an advantage, etc...

If you are going to demand they be barred from such, then why not those who die attempting battles? Seriously, if you are going to complain about people reloading over and over for better loot, what about those who do such in order to beat an encounter? Shouldn't we restrict them from such? You are so concerned about balance, shouldn't you be concerned about this? If not, then aren't you being "selective" in what you consider abuse through save/reloads?

It does matter. What matters though is that you can't seem to segregate INTERNAL game influences from EXTERNAL ones. I refuse to believe you are that ignorant and obtuse. I think your arrogance in the promotion of your own position is what causes you to ignore the issues in these discussions and it is why you consistently clash with many on this forum.

I am curious how you know what most developers consider? And are you implying that the developers at Firaxis Games are "insane" because they attempted to limit the effectiveness of save-scumming in XCOM EU?



See above.



I disagree. For the sake of this example, let's assume the candle prices are unintended. When you go to sell a stack of them and see the oddly large amount of gold you're being offered.. that whole "if it seems too good to be true" adage should be coming to mind. And, following that, if you continue to remove candles from the environment with the intention to sell them, you are taking what you call "an intentional approach". There are no unsuspecting victims here at that point.

It is not all that different from save scumming. You can be genuinely surprised that the loot in a chest has changed the first time you come across this phenomenon. The act of causing this may be completely unintended, and the result even undesired. Your philosophy about being a victim can apply here as well. And, like with the candles, once you realize what the deal is, you can make a choice to abuse it.

But that doesn't mean the game should allow it. I don't care if people are hex-editing.. there's a lot more involved in that then reloading a saved game, and I don't expect the developers to try and thwart every method of cheating - but I do hope they go after the easier ones if they consider them a cheat to begin with. By your logic, the developers should ignore all cheats and exploits since anyone can fire up a hex editor and cheat away. What's the point in plugging any loophole, right? Sorry, but I strongly disagree with your thinking here.


If the developers want to implement a hardcore mode and give players the option of using it, more power to them. And some games do limit the amount of saving you can do surrounding battles because that is the developer's idea of good gameplay. Obviously the vision differs from one developer to the next.



Does it matter? Does it really matter if you believe any of that? I don't care what you believe about me, so why do you? I see you the same way as you see me in this respect and you can be certain I'm not losing any sleep over it. I don't create threads like this to attract approval from other players. I create threads like this because I want the game to be better and I genuinely believe the suggestion being offered may help with that.

Better to just agree to disagree and save yourself the stress, I think.

Ellary, you know how I know MOST developers think that? Because we have a history of games designed in such a way as to not antagonize over what Gyson has? It is a logical evaluation of the result of the work presented based on the technologies available to functionally combat the problem that Gyson has presented. That is, they haven't worried about it as many developers don't waste their time trying to combat external mechanisms and those that did were for different reasons (ie console games did it due to memory limitations).

But hey, if you want to make the argument that they care about such, but haven't implemented it into most of the games because of some mysterious reason, by all means...

hmm? I was not disagreeing with what you put. my comment was to Gyson.

@Tanist, the "insane" comment originates from Gyson's post - Ellary has just quoted it in her response.

Edit: Oh well, this has already been corrected^^.

Dang nab it! That was like potentially having a front row seat to the ignition point of a nuclear war.

I wanted to straighten up the confusion, but couldn't convince my fingers to start typing. So weird.

a nuclear war? O.o you had some odd views of people on the forum. For you to assume others are to slow to work through confusion and would dive into a 'war' continues to show how slow you are. Now I kinda feel bad for posting in here..I was raised not to poke fun at those lacking intelligence... *shrug*

Edit..forgot to say trololol Gyson~

Nah. It's just between Tanist's "I forgive you for your error" style comment and how well you react to criticism (cough), I gave it about two more exchanges before you started getting snippy with someone else.

Ellary, you know how I know MOST developers think that? Because we have a history of games designed in such a way as to not antagonize over what Gyson has? It is a logical evaluation of the result of the work presented based on the technologies available to functionally combat the problem that Gyson has presented. That is, they haven't worried about it as many developers don't waste their time trying to combat external mechanisms and those that did were for different reasons (ie console games did it due to memory limitations).

But hey, if you want to make the argument that they care about such, but haven't implemented it into most of the games because of some mysterious reason, by all means...

I'm still curious why you believe the developers at Firaxis went through the trouble of attempting to discourage save-scumming in XCOM EU (another turn-based strategy game). You suggested no sane developer do this. Were they insane, in your opinion?

I would say they simply had a vision they were determined to keep intact, one where people wouldn't constantly be reloading the game just to try to change the outcome of a round. Their efforts were unsuccessful, but at least they gave it a shot.

You are just looking for a pointless debate..you must be really bored. Why was it unsuccessful? think on that. Does reloading someones game matter that much? Nope~ doesn't matter at all..though it clearly bugs the hell out of you. I actually am feeling bad for you now..not sure how you deal with day to day life not being in control of everyone around you...

The only time Exploiting/Reloading/Cheating for loot matters is in MMOs or games with auction houses for real money
(Like Diablo 3)

Before you try and go all derp. you cannot even bring characters into someone elses game.. cause I know that will be your next focal point on it. So ZERO way for it to effect anyone else.

To answer your question, it didn't work (in XCOM:EU) because the seed technique was vulnerable to fairly easy workarounds.

Diablo 3 no longer has an auction house or real money transactions, and yet still makes every effort to keep your character cheat-free.

It seems to me the only person looking for a pointless debate is the one who states "I think we are done here. ^_^ thanks for the luls." and then jumps back into the discussion the moment they see a conversation happening without them. Did you get lonely or something? Because I was addressing Tanist, and yet here you are ready to troll some more.

You clearly have a lot more to say, so in the interest of not plaguing this thread with several more pages of your back-and-forth, I invite you to send me a private message and continue the conversation with me there. Unless you absolutely require an audience and attention, we can privately work on hashing out the issues you seem to have without disturbing everyone else (and this thread) with these personal exchanges of ours. So, please, feel free to PM me if you feel the need to respond.