Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity Original Sin - Beta I avoid picking up henchmen because of their level

First of all, I'm talking about "Companions", not Henchmen (which don't seem to be in the game yet). I used the word "Henchman" because Companion wouldn't fit the character limit in the subject title.

I want to have two followers accompanying my two main characters to round out my party. However, I like my party to be the same level so that (combat-wise) they're all on relatively equal footing and all leveling up at roughly the same time.

You can meet Madora and Jahan shortly after entering the town of Cyseal, and by that point you're probably around 5000 XP at level 2. 8000 XP is required to reach level 3, and level 3 is what Madora and Jahan start off as. While it is possible to reach level 3 while questing in Cyseal, in that time you run the risk of missing out on comments made by these two characters while exploring the town and solving in-town quests.

Thus, I feel torn. I want my party to be the same level, but I want to pick up my two followers ASAP so they can start inputting opinions on my adventures right away. And as I run around getting exploration and quest experience in Cyseal, I feel silly for not having them in my party and taking advantage of it.

Is it possible to have these followers sync their experience totals to those of the main characters the *first* time a conversation is open with them? Or, you could do it the *first* time they join the party. There are tradeoffs to the two different approaches, but the main objective is to get all the characters in the party on the same page experience-wise, regardless of how soon you add them to your group.

I just don't want to feel like I have to say "Madora! Nice to meet you. Just hold on one second.. (runs and solves several quests) ..ok, back. How about joining my party now that we're all level 3?". It should flow better than that, without having character levels in the party all over the place.

Their XP is raised to the level of XP as the PC if it's lower (in my case for Madora it's not).
So your wish is already fulfilled???

Whatever it is you're trying to say is getting lost in translation.

If you are level 2 with 5000 XP and you bring Madora into your party, she is level 3 with 8000 XP. She doesn't scale down to the level of your party members.

What were you trying to explain?

I think he was trying to explain the -other- direction. Where you are level 4 and Madora joins you then.

Yeah, I figured you wanted them to scale up to you, and I said it was already included.
Apparently though, you want them scaled down.

Personally (and I know it's a popular suggestion for Pillars of Eternity/Project Eternity) I prefer if all 4 party members have a slightly seperate XP value. That way instead of having 1 long wait before leveling and then having to spend a lot of stuff it's a more gradual progression; with less time between levels, and each level doesn't take you as long to spend stuff, and allow for a more gradual increase in power of your party rather than the massive boosts a level has currently, since all 4 suddenly increase in power.

With as big a difference that levels make in this game, I find staggered level ranges in the party makes for more awkward combat. A level 6 character in your party may be holding their own against level 6 opponents, where as the level 5 character in the party is struggling against them. Or, your opponents are level 5 and the level 6 character in your group is mopping the floor with them and making the entire fight trivial. That issue makes me prefer parties who are all on the same footing.

That said, it could always be a prompted option when you have the follower join your party for the first time ("Would you like to sync your follower to your level?").

Something interesting I discovered using Companions. At the moment I'm at work, so I can't double check it.

Whenever I used them they were aprox. 1 level apart from my player characters but there was one thing I noticed. They didn't have the right amount of skill points / talents. They were missing some talents (perhaps the starting 2? I don't know for sure) and skill points (again the starting 5?). So I got the impression despite the same level my companions were slightly less effective than my 2 player character.

Sorry that I can't provide hard facts, because I can't start the game.

Motoko - yes, the companions do in fact have fewer starting talent/ability points than the two main characters. Not sure why myself.

Since companions scale up to the player's level (but not down), it seems like the easiest solution here is to lower their starting level to 2, or even 1 (it's currently 3). I'm not even sure if you can enter Cyseal without first having stumbled across enough experience to reach level 2 with your main characters.

Different level of characters may also improve the gaming experience and makes more tactical thinking necessary, since you know who are stronger and weaker: who you can send to the front, who has to stay behind/defended. However this can also make problems: destroy balance or make combats unfair, for ex. if a warrior is weak, so should stay away from melee combat or will get killed fast, but so the archer/mage has greater risk to get reached by the enemy.

I would prefer if the characters would have a small difference and wouldn't level up at the same time, just as Hassat wrote already. This don't have to be a level difference only some thousands of exp is ok.

Something like this would have my vote - mostly because I'm obsessive-compulsive and like to have all my party members with the same EXP value, but also because (as Gyson mentioned) the difference between a level 1 and a level 2 character, for example, is so noticeable.

Edit: meant to quote Gyson. Oops. It's good to put Madora to 2 because....

I think the orc encounter might be enough all on its own, actually. If not, the waypoint experience and three skeletons before that should probably tip one over easily.

Indeed, companions start without talents. Didn't quite notice if their abilities/stats were lower.

Though if intentional, it does make sense. They're companions, the heroes should be stronger than them. They are "Source Hunters" after all (whatever that means XD)

Jahan needs 1 point into Air Elementalist. He already knows almost all the Rank 1 Air spells, so it's silly that he hasn't got that point (and annoying that you have to spend one to give him a rank in Air he clearly already knows.

But Madora is a Source Hunter too.

Remember, the game is supposed to have both Companions *and* Henchman available for us to bring into our party. While (according to the developers) Henchman are much simpler, Companions are supposed to be complex like the main characters, with their own stories, unique visuals (like the Baby Floater), quests, talents, traits, skills, affinity, morale, etc. Henchman are supposed to have skills as well, but not to the extent of Companions.

Henchman, by the way, are not the same as summons. Henchman have their own stories too, however the example the developers gave was that there might be something like 200 Henchman and 50 backstories for them, so when you meet a Henchman he randomly pulls from one of those backstories as his background. In the end, they're not as fleshed out as Companions (or as capable).

Madora and Jahan are "Companions" (not "Henchmen). However, they have no talents or traits (which Companions are supposed to have).

Personally, I think Companions should have just as much potential as the main characters. A big part of that is because I view this as 4 man team rather than a party of two with two lackeys tagging along. If you want your main characters to be the strongest heroes in your party, stick with Henchman instead of Companions.

For reference, a character starts with:

5 points to add to stats (STR, DEX, etc)
5 points to spend on abilities (Water Elementalist, Armor Specialist, etc)
2 points to spend on talents (Zombie, Know It All, etc)

By the time they reach level 3 (which is the level Jahan and Madora currently start at), the main characters will have:

6 points to add to stats
7 points to add to abilities
3 points to add to talents

However, what Madora and Jahan actually have (at level 3) is:

6 points to add to stats (same as the main characters)
4-5 points to add to abilities (Madora has more than Jahan, for some odd reason)
0 points to add to talents (yet we were told companions had talents)

..and, again, for some reason they appear to be missing traits (Romantic, Obedient, etc) as well.

They do gain talents upon leveling... ?

Sounds pretty stupid... "if you want to be weaker, use henchmen instead of companions"
What? Why would anyone want that? If henchmen and companion are mutually exclusive why pick the weaker one AND less content? That... makes no sense.

I don't recall having to add any ability points, they were pre-designed. Of course once I leveled I could give the additional ones to the points I prefered. And again; they gain talents too.

We just seem to see things different. You want 4 heroes (you can't, as mentioned, it's just the 2). I see it more *indeed* as 2 heroes having 2 less powerful people to assist them in their quest, supplement them. But not being there complete and utter equals (and nowhere in the game does it act like they are, "let me speak to your leader!" having no input in quest choices and similar.

Ok, there's a bit of confusion here. Let me see if I can clear that up.

1) Companions are *supposed* to have talents. At least, that's how things stood with the last video update on the difference between Henchmen and Companions.

2) Henchmen are inferior to Companions, but there are supposed to be far more Henchmen available for hire in the game than Companions. That makes Henchmen attractive in that you can easily find exactly the kind of help you're looking for when struggling with a particular scenario, where as that might not be the case with the more rare Companions and their limited selection.

3) This comment:


..is attached to the understanding that all characters start with 30 points in stats (5 in each score) and then a total of 5 additional stat points to assign during character creation. By level 3, you have a total of 36 stat points spread amongst 5 stats. Madora and Jahan do as well, so everything is working as expected there.

When it comes to abilities, you start with 5 ability points in character creation that you can reassign while designing your character. By the time you're level 3, you've assigned 7 ability points in total. For some reason, at level 3 Madora only has 5 ability points assigned, and Jahan has even less (4 ability points assigned). Stabby mentioned Jahan needing 1 ability point placed in Air Elementalist - there is certainly room for that since he's already short on ability points compared to Madora, and both of them are short on ability points compared to the main characters (4 vs 3 vs 7) (5 vs 4 vs 7). edit: updated with correct numbers

As for talents, at character creation you get 2 points to assign to talents. By level 3 you've assigned a total of 3 points to talents. According to the last Companion video update we received, Companions are supposed to have talents as well, but Madora and Jahan have none.

Here's some more info on Henchmen (not Companions), if you're interested:

"It also gives us an opportunity to add a bit more information about the "Design A Henchman" tier. Many people have asked us what happens to the henchmen they design if the "henchmen become companions" stretch goal is reached.

The way it is going to work is that the henchmen designed by backers will receive a background from the pool of available backgrounds. And they will have dialogues which correspond to those backgrounds. Additionally there will be companions that we will add to the game and these will be treated differently from the henchmen.

You may wonder why you would still want to hire henchmen if there are companions available. And the answer is that different henchmen will have different strengths and weaknesses as well as different abilities. It is very likely that while playing, you might swap henchmen in and out depending on the challenges you are facing. For instance, when dealing with fire creatures, fire spells actually heal them instead of damaging them. If you happen to have a companion that is specialized in fire spells, he will therefore be of little use. At such a moment it would be very handy to hire a henchman specialized in water spells.

Luckily you also have a homestead at The Shelter Plane At The End of Time where you can ask henchmen you encountered and hired, to wait for you.

You should also be aware that henchmen talk to each other so if you treat them badly, that might have repercussions in your dealing with other henchmen. Likewise, treat them well and you might find unexpected benefits."

Booted game to check; I think I understand your confusion.

Both start with skills on lvl 2. That means 3 skillpoints are given there, but since it's just 1 upgrade the 'points in lore' will display 1 or 2 lower than for the player, if he/she just put points into lvl 1. Did that cause the confusion?

And yes, they start out talentless, but they can acquire them by levelups.

Whoops, yeah, my math was off by 1. I'll go and update my post, but the problem is still the same, so there was no confusion in that respect:

When it comes to abilities, you start with 5 ability points in character creation that you can reassign while designing your character. By the time you're level 3, you've assigned 7 ability points in total. For some reason, at level 3 Madora only has 5 ability points assigned, and Jahan has even less (4 ability points assigned). Stabby mentioned Jahan needing 1 ability point placed in Air Elementalist - there is certainly room for that since he's already short on ability points compared to Madora, and both of them are short on ability points compared to the main characters (5 vs 4 vs 7).

I guess the problem is they are lvl 3 then, while they should be 1 (and have the stats of 1)? (besides apparenly statwise).