Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity Original Sin - Beta Help with Shadowblade

Hello all,

Just curious as to how you would build this character? It would appear you have the option of going Bow or Dagger which has a whole slew of questions in its own so lets break this up.

Bow:
If you decide to go bow I would imagine you would take most of the ranger perks and the bow skill to help pump damage but here is the questions surrounding that:
1.) Which attributes best help bow? I would imagine Dex / Perceptions? If you are you going bow would speed be a factor at all? As you wouldn't really be moving much but you still want as many AP as possible?
2.) Can you still back stab with a bow? I would assume you could as long as the enemies are not facing you?
3.) Is there a point to shooting form invisible or sneak?


Dagger:
1.) Which attributes do you take to best leverage dagger? I would assume Dex / Speed?
2.) All you need for a back stab attack is to be behind the character, now is there any advantage to being invisible or being in sneak mode prior to the attack? Does it add any damage as it sure costs many more turns/AP to accomplish this?
3.) It appears daggers lack damage as getting behind an mob is hard enough as it is, however if the back stab fails your squishy shadow blade is now super vulnerable, on top of it, even if the back stab lands the damage seems only comparable to other weapons / magic abilities other characters have. Am I doing something wrong?
4.) Is there a way to tell if your attack will attempt a back stab other then being behind them prior to executing the attack? I find many times it thinks its a flank attack opposed to a back stab attack and this could possibly be why back stabs are failing?

Any help would be greatly appreciated as I'm really looking to leverage this class the best it can be done and I would prefer to use daggers but if bow is better I can do that. Also if it is possible to switch between bow / dagger and still keep the class viable that works as well. Thanks again,

There's already a Magic/Ranger class, the Wayfarer, so the Shadowblade is geared towards a melee rogue/magic class.

So for a Shadowblade, I'd not bother with Bows, and instead focus on daggers and getting magic that debuffs targets or helps the shadowblade stay hidden.




1) That's correct. Dex for ranger skills and chance to hit at normal range, Perception for chance to hit at long range and critical hits.
2) No.
3) If you have Guerrilla, sneak attacks do extra damage, and from far enough away, you may be able to remain undetected and pick off foes before starting combat.



1) Correct again. DEX for using daggers, lowering AP costs and chance to hit, and SPD to let you make the most of your AP. Shadowblades are trickier though, as they also have INT competing for points. Take the Speedcrawler Talent to let you move at full speed while sneaking.
2) If you have Guerrilla, sneak attacks do extra damage - a LOT of it. If you have at least 5 AP when behind a target, enter Sneak mode before attacking, the extra damage is worth more than two normal backstabs.
3) Guerrilla makes a big difference. Just be sure to keep your dagger up-to-date, that's the most important factor to making use of backstabs. The dagger's big advantage is that it can attack many times per turn, so you want to position yourself to use your AP well. The Rogue is very squishy, and will want to have a couple of +1 Constitution pieces of equipment by level 4. Proper use of Invisibility can get you out of scrapes as well.
4) It takes practice, just pay careful attention to how the enemy is facing, because it's not always easy to realize you're a little bit off. Rotate the camera to change perspective a bit. If you see "Backstab failed", I think that means you are in teh proper position to stab, it just didn't work.




Honestly I think you'd be better off starting out with a plain old Rogue instead of a Shadowblade, it'll be easier to learn the tricks when you don't also have to worry about using magic. Once you have that down, then you'll be better able to make use of a Shadowblade.

You should be able to switch between bows and daggers with no problems as they are both DEX-based weapons.

Which magics best help the Shadow Blade,

Also is there a good place to get a dagger. I can't seem to find any, maybe its just poor luck in this run through.

Also is there any damage bonus to being invisible while starting fight? or is it just a good tool to get in and out of fights without being hit.

If I were trying to make a shadow blade, I would use dex and speed for primary attributes, and enough intelligence to cast the utility spells from the chosen spell schools which I think are air and witchcraft. For example I'm sure you'd want to pick up invisibility and the air spell that gives you physical resistance.

Because of the available utility you would have, it might be possible to play this combination with something like the Raistlin trait which would free up points from speed for intelligence. You might want some decent initiative though, which would still mean putting points in speed.

Guerilla increases your damage a lot if you're sneaking, it's a must have but I think it's a default for shadowblade. It doesn't seem to work with invisibility or way of the shadows but you can sneak from anywhere if you have either one activated. You'll definitely want the trait that allows you to run while sneaking.

If your backstab doesn't miss, the enemy you stabbed won't turn to face you, which means you can restealth with sneak. If you have someone distracting the enemies while you stay at their backs, you can backstab then restealth with impunity.

I had been thinking about if this class were viable ever since I first saw it in the character creation but I haven't tried it yet. Instead I played a dex/speed rogue with warrior skills so I could use spears, daggers, and bows; depending on the situation. Might try shadowblade next.

I haven't tried it myself, but I would not recommend Raistlin for a frontline fighter, as my Rogue was pretty fragile and prone to dying even without cutting his health in half.

You would need a lot of CON or lone wolf to really benefit of a high AP per turn with Raistlin. No use having 20ap per turn when you can only get, say, 14 max. That would be 6AP wasted because you can't even use them, and you're still standing with a diminished health pool.
And as you mentioned, you would still want some initiative anyway.

Just dish one or two points in speed and you're good to go. With Way of the Warrior rank 5, which can be obtained quite quickly especially when you don't really have anything more useful to boost, you will gain +4 AP per turn anyway.

With 5 speed, Raistlin and lone wolf, I think your AP per turn is 14, 18 with level 5 way of the warrior. I wonder how much constitution you'd need to have 18 max AP. I think my wizard who uses Raistlin and lone wolf has 15 at 6 constitution. I can't remember if the increase is on odd or even levels but I think it's odd so you'd need 11 constitution, I think. I suppose you wouldn't have enough points left over for both the required intelligence and dexterity but it might be worth doing for a purer class. Now that I think about it I want to try it... lol.

Your maximum AP increases by 1 each level of CON, which is notable, because normally bonuses are granted only on even-numbered levels. 18 AP with those talents would be 9 CON.

My Rogue isn't a Shadowblade, but he did have to invest in two pieces of +CON equipment just to stay viable after level 4. Other than that I was splitting my points equally between DEX and SPD, because the movement bonus you get from SPD adds up pretty quickly and is very noticable.

Way of the Warrior 5? As in 15 ability points? I suppose you could if you found a lucky +1 WotW item and spent 3 of your starting AB points to get it to rank 2 at level 1, but that is still a hefty investment, unless you want to skip all magic, and certainly not "quick", since that requires you to be level 8 minimum, by which point the beta is nearly over.

Well, you have two characters after all - you can fully dedicate one to be a melee dps and the other to magic, but really, you could go full WotW, in the current state of things. Or just skip magic altogether. After all we did a two-men full melee no magic party and it was very viable. Weapon profiencies doesn't do anything special, though maybe you could want a bit of armor specialisation. But basically WotW also gives you some defensive boosts, so why not ?

Sure, in order to do something ressembling a rogue, you would have to invest in sneaking, making the rush to level 5 WotW more time consuming. Arguably, maybe it's preferable to go full fighter and add the sneaking later.
It's true that I forgot I actually found a +1 WotW weapon, which drastically reduces the time spent on leveling the ability. However, do not forget the talent giving +2 ability points which will reduce the needed level to reach rank 5 by one. By level 7 you may have maxed WotW, even 6 should you spent the aforementioned AB points during creation, which IS pretty soon in the game, considering we only have a small fragment to play around. In my latest game, level 7 was reached by doing the main quest, the lighthouse, and that's about it. No going to the black cove, no talking statues, no secondary quests, no church obviously...

Anyway that's just to say that you will have more than enough AP per turn to play around :p

This was my next question. It seems Way of the Survival is a waste of time as a Rogue if your using daggers. Aside from your starting skills the only other ones that are good are arrows spray which you can get at lvl 1 Way of Survival if you feel like switching to bow for AOE, or the Charm attack I could see being good, however I don't see it worth the points as every stat bonus Way of the Surival gives you is for ranged / bow. Is it best just to skip this all together and go way of the warrior instead for a rogue / shadowblade if you plan on going all daggers.

The other issues I have seen with the Rogue is the sheer amount of AP it requires to get behind an enemey, sneak, then backstab is crazy, not to mention if you can't sneak because other enemies are facing you(And see you) you have to use invisibility which is another 3 AP before you can even go into sneak mode. So in total you are looking at 6AP Points to just get invisible and into sneak mode before even moving a step. Couple this with the damage you do get for a successful sneak backstab it doesn't seem worth it. Yes the damage is decent, but its not that much more then other characters typically do in a round or two. Plus in most cases it takes a full round to just get into position if not more due to variables in the battlefield(We'll get there next) Also there is many times I'm behind a monster, in sneak mode, and execute the attack but it says sneak failed/ back stab failed? Not sure why this is, but when it does happem the damage is so low.

The last problem I have seen with a rogue / shadow blade is you have to be SO careful with your party combo's as if you have a party member setting the ground on fire, electrifying it, poisoning it ect, you can't get in back-stab places without taking a bunch of damage which to a squishy class is daunting.

So what has everyone else experience been or is there a better way to build them? Some of the builds posted above sound interesting or could be more viable. One build I was thinking about was making a rogue/shadowblade and use the Air Invisibility spell / hide in shadows to always stay hidden. You could theoretically accomplish this by staying invisible until you now the next hide in shadows / invisibility is kicking in, then back-stab and pop the invisibility again.

Anyhow if anyone has any answers to my questions that would be great.

Thanks again,

This was one other thing I wasn't sure how its working. The talent that gives you +2 ability points, how does this work? I have had it one of my chars for at least 3-4 levels and haven't seen the extra points?

The talent should give you the two extra ability points immediately after you confirm it. It's also a one-time deal, in other words you only get +2 points once, not every level. If you select it in the character creation screen, you will get the extra points when the game starts (but they won't show up in CC).

I haven't taken this at the start of the game, but I took it afterwards, however I never got the points to my knowledge. I will need to check again. However when I took Bigger is Better I saw the stat points right away. Now this is also more noticeable so I'll have to double check.

Thanks for the info.

If you're spending all your AP getting into position, you're doing it wrong, and something is off with either your build or playstyle.


If possible, have the Rogue stay out of the encounter, and when the rest of the party triggers it, move the Rogue around the back in sneak mode. You can then start the fight in position with no AP cost.

The Rogue starts with Tactical Retreat, which lets you move 14m for less AP than it costs to walk there. That helps. Points into Speed also increase your movement a lot, which is key for the Rogue. Try to wear armour with +Movement.

If sneaking is impossible, then it's impossible and you'll have to make do with normal backstabs, which are still worthwhile. I find invisibility's best uses are to either get all the way behind all the enemies, or to escape if you are surrounded. Using it to get into the middle of a pack for a single sneak-attack backstab, with enemies on all sides is probably not a good idea.




Sneak failed means you have left sneak mode. This is okay and you still get sneak attack damage. If you're not getting higher damage or backstab/backstab failed, then you are in the wrong position. Backstab failed means you were in the right position for a stab, but it failed. Those happenn.




Tactical Retreat. And you have to co-ordinate your party so you don't do that.




It gives you those immediately/after character creation. It is NOT +2 ability points every level, wow that would be broken.

Yeah on my rogue the tactical retreat is good for getting into position. However that isn't an option for the shadow blade. None the less the advice you gave is good.

One problem I have is I've tried to break off my rogue from the group and go into sneak, then have the group engage the fight. Then I take my rogue and try and get into position, however as soon as he gets close to enemies either behind or in front of them, it engages him in the fight. I guess this could just be sneak failing?

Also what is the damages you are getting when you get a successful backstab / sneak+backstab off? Just curious to the dmg ratio's compared to other party members?

Damage is going to be very stat- and gear-dependent. But with a successful backstab+sneak combo (with Guerilla), you should be getting a 4x damage multiplier. Couple that with the fact that daggers hit twice, and you end up dealing 8x stated weapon damage (plus any bonuses from abilities/gear) with a single attack.

For reference, my level 7 shadowblade deals around 180 damage per hit (so 360 damage total per attack) to same-level enemies with a backstab+sneak using a dagger with a base damage of somewhere around 40-60, iirc. Also my guy has nowhere near an optimal build in terms of stat distribution and gear. So I have no doubt you could see higher numbers at the same level.

Okay yeah that pretty well add's up, however what I meant was compared to say a bow/xbow user or 2hand char using their abilities. For instance I would say a bow/xbow user at level 7 would probably be doing around 100dmg a hit or so depending on gear, then couple that with arrow spray and the damage is ridiculous as that can hit 3-4 times.

However this is good information and I will have to do some further testing.

Crossbows are overpowered, Arrow Spray is overpowered, so that's not a good stick to use for comparison. If a normal level 7 bow can do 100 damage a hit, then a properly used dagger of the same level will easily beat that, no sweat. I've tried it. Don't forget to add in the lower AP cost, which is a huge difference in damage/turn.

That's true, and a good point.

One other thing I was wondering about is what does putting extra skill points in sneak actually do? I would assume it makes it so you can sneak more efficiently however how much of a difference is 1-5?

Does sneak 3 make it that much harder for monsters/npc's to see you compared to sneak 1? Does sneak 5 have any perks to getting it that high?