Originally Posted by Xendran
All you've said is "Frustration is good" and "Players should guess". You never explained why players guessing at enemy levels should be considered a good or correct form of frustration.


Well, thats not really true. I did.

I was referring to the fact that frustration is integral part of gaming. Because the challenge is and there is no challenge without some measure of frustration.

Of course, if someone takes that as a crude blanket statement and tries to counter that by argument from absurdity, such as simplistic form of "oh well why dont we just make all game incredibly frustrating (in all the wrong ways), eh?" - he misses the point completely.


As to why exactly i consider "guessing" at enemy levels to be a correct form of challenge and frustration - i explained that.

First - you are not guessing at all. You have your direct feedback from enemy encounters - all the bloody time.

Second - knowing enemy levels directly causes metagaming.
Takes player out of the game itself and gets them thinking about this and adjusting how they play the game because of it.





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A true game designer comes up with a solution that can achieve both the frustration while retaining the ability to have educated guesses, and using frustration in a positive way rather than a negative way.

True. Which is what i say about frustration in this sense.


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That solution is to make very lethal combinations of enemies that are more challenging compared to other monsters of their level. Not just "mage buffs everybody elses damage", but things that need to be actively thought about to avoid.

One of the possible solutions. Not directly tied to the problem we are discussing here.

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Things that are extremely dangerous if you have no idea that they can happen, and require some prediction and preparation to handle.

And how is that going to happen if you know the enemy levels before hand, exactly?

Arent you actually saying what im saying here, now?


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Let's say regular level 4 zombies are easy at level 4, but there are level 4 zombies in a poison pool supported by a level 4 mage. If zombies could, for example, spread poison on the ground to heal them as they advance to you while you still take fire from the mages but also have to find a way to deal with both the poison and the regenerating zombies. Then you could combine it with mage AI that, if still alive, will detonate the final zombie corpse to create smoke. Mages could be given the ability to blindfire directly through smoke without a target that would create a potentially deadly blind zone that has magic spewing out of it in random blindfire based on your last known location.

A good use for invisibility, as you can move outside of the smoke while visible to give the mage a Last Known Position, then travel to a zone that is not at risk of being hit with blindfire while invisible.

Level 4 zombie? Not too bad. Level 4 mage? Not too bad. Combined? You're going to get some surprises thrown at you and probably die horribly.



there would be no surprises there. A player would know that would happen by knowing the exact levels the enemy have.

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Another thing that makes this better is that you aren't just getting slaughtered by huge numbers, you are being shown new ways to fight by the enemies and learning from your battles.

That only happens when you dont know the enemy levels beforehand.


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You learn new mechanics and start to think of tactical ways to avoid the deadly Zombie + Mage Combo. It would make you think about using environmental spells in battle to clear the smoke.

Only if you dont know the enemy levels beforehand.

if you do know them then you know exactly for what the enemies are capable of and what combinations they will use. Especially since such combinations are of the limited quantity and easily learned.

Even more easily, if the player knows the exact enemy level.




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It also accomplishes the goal of making players more aware of their environments before choosing to enter a battle.

It accomplishes only the opposite.

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You end the battle with "hey that was cool, i should think of ways to avoid it and use my own powerful combo" rather than "I'm not sure if this is the wrong way, if i have to grind, or if i've missed a dungeon".


Nope. You dont.


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The frustration generated from things like this encourages the player to overcome the challenge, whereas getting slaughtered by the same attacks with big numbers is just annoying and tedious.


Who exactly ever mentioned getting slaughtered by the same attacks? let alone imagined that as desirable mechanic?

Thats just a Strawman argument at the end. Based on completely false and incorrect basis.

Sorry.