Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity Original Sin - Beta What are the benefits of having weapon levels?

And armors of course or general items.


Seriously what are the benefits? I only see drawbacks. It is responsible for so many balancing problems.

Just started new, one warrior strength 10, one mage strength 5. The mage did the same damage as my warrior with a level 2 dagger. Why is that?
(Yes the warrior has a better to hit score but I am focusing on damage)

No wonder this leads to frustrations.

RPGs are about choices and I think to force people to level up first by doing the whole Cyceal stuff limits my choices. I can be the strongest, but yet because my equipment and I are one or two level below, I can't. The sekeletons outside Cyceal will wipe me out in no time.

Because Daggers damage is based on Dexterity, not Strength.

Yeah ok, but he still only has dex 5.

Strength doesnt do anything for weapons that are specifically dexterity related.

Give your warrior a strength related or dependent weapon instead.

Oh come on. That is not the point. The warrior had a sword. The strength does nothing at all with the damage. That is what I am saying.

What are the benefits of having weapon levels?

They increase damage by 10% more each. 1 - 10% more damage, 2 - 20% more damage, etc.

You can see that in the description for each.

I do hope they will add more effects to weapon skills because there is no reason to invest more then 2 points in any weapon category now.

You do find better weapons as you play.

Sorry maybe I wasn't clear enough. I don't mean the skill/ability/talent. What I mean with weapon level, is the level of your sword, dagger, etc.

This currently determines how much damage you make. And I think that this is completely wrong. And I would like to know why that is and what are its benefits.

Weapon levels are a feature of many RPG's including previous Divinity games. They are part of the game.

Some RPG's calculate most damage with character attributes and magical bonuses.

Divinity is a series that determines most weapon damage from the weapon as long as the wielder has the attributes to wield it.

The advantages for the dev's are in the level scaling and balances of encounters within the RPG using this method. Divinity games use random loot and the leveling of the weapons provides greater variety within that. For the player it is in the feeling of equipping that new weapon (or the one you've been spending attribute points to wield).

It's certainly not meant to be a realistic simulationist RPG.
In terms of comparison to pen and paper RPG's it's certainly not RuneQuest.

I'll do a quick comparison of 2 pen and paper rule systems, traditional d&d and 13th Age. 13th Age uses damage by character level and class but in terms of the difference in damage by level scaling it's broadly similar to here.
A traditional d&d type game would have a warrior increasing damage mostly from enchantment and training and increasing the number of attacks, so a 8th level warrior might attack twice for 1d8 plus static modifiers. 13th Age would have a warrior make one attack and roll a number of damage dice by level (so at level 4 it's 4d8+ with a sword or damage equal to level on a miss)*. The RPG systems then balance opponents by level against these scales. 13th Age designers changed that from traditional d&d because melee classes kept falling badly behind magic at higher levels and combats got delayed by multiple attacks and calculating multiple modifiers for no real benefit, especially when it was never a simulationist game in the 1st place. So, in terms of damage scaling only, this is closer to 13th Age than d&d.

If they implemented a flat weapon damage with damage increases coming from static modifiers here, I think it would make for a lot of work for no real benefit.

It's not wrong, just different. Please also remember they are still balancing the game.

*I picked 8th and 4th because 13th Age only has 10 character levels vs 20 for traditional D&D.

What I've found odd and perhaps a bug (and perhaps I'm missing something), is the Item Level of Armor doesn't seem to matter. You can put it on oneself without a penalty, while Weapon Item Level has a real penalty.

Drawbacks:

Unique weapons are level dependent, therefore if found too late, absolutely worthless.

Encounter difficulty absolutely dependent on your equipment's level (quickly too easy and quickly too hard) (ie. optional fight Cyseal Harbor Warehouse, only two levels higher (2. vs. 4.) and you can't even hit them, but even when you do hit, all damage gets absorbed. It's just an example, I know you don't have to steal there and start a fight. I am just pointing out, that even a small level difference results in an impossible encounter, not hard, impossible.)

After level up, you need to buy/find new equipment to access your new "powers"

If there is no level scaling, it leads to a linear gameplay. For this region you need to be level 3, here you are only "allowed" with level 6 and there you can go there now, but you will die. You should have grinded a bit more because everything below level 12 gets slaughtered.

Advantages:
Level scaling..., everything gets multiplied by a level. I think this is just weak. It has its place within diablo 3.

Random loot, I see no difference between flat damage weapons and level weapons. With flat damage weapons the durability could be much more interesting. Now you change your weapon way to fast. And then you are happy to find another two handed sword because yours is about to brake.

You're misunderstanding how the RNG + loot tables are working.

At the moment, you have a combination of factors:

• Character level in certain instances
• Monster level = determines RNG drops in a range from their specific lists
• Listed chest level (i.e. "chest level 5 or 10 or ??) determines range
• Vendor equipment RNG tables (char level dependent, barring items such as potions / books)
• Fixed rewards that never change. e.g. Orc Armor on the beach
• Mob levels are fixed, and do not change, which on boss mobs, determines range of unique / blue / green drops. e.g. lighthouse ghast will only drop ~ level 4-6 items.

'Unique' weapons aren't "level dependent"; they're often tied to the chest level / boss level. However, that's a different issue, and nothing to do with your character level. (AKA, you're looting chests / mobs with a high % chance of dropping uniques at much higher levels than expected if you're getting unique drops that are "low level").

The bottom line is that D:OS is a static world, but with (ranged) RNG tables attached to certain loot tables. Larian's system allows for ranges, but obviously, if you're expecting to pull great level 10+ uniques out of chests from the early game or that level 4 boss if you "save them up" to exploit when you spank them at level 10, it doesn't work.

I'd be cruel, and point out that this is another area where "level scaling" breaks, but I feel that horse has long been beaten.


D:OS - land of people not understanding game mechanics. What a thrill.


p.s.


Go look for magic axes. Or go to Minoc to farm skeleton keys and mass abuse the treasure room under the castle. (This explains both fixed loot & chest levels rather well, if you're not getting it. Bonus: this mechanic is over twenty-five years old! Probably older than some of the ignorant vocal elements on this forum )

I must be playing a different game o.o cause my lil support character does like nothing for melee dmg~ her staff hits are weak. (<- note staff as it is a mage weapon) and my warrior/thief guy does quite a bit of damage with bows and swords.

Now from my understanding you are upset about damage. of course if you build a battle mage using the same kinda weapons as your warrior.. the damage will be similar.

Try this! make a mage and give them a staff and not a dagger/sword.
Do also keep in mind if you truly hate how it works, the tool kit will let you edit things in game.

Hope it helps!

Ok, so it seams random loot is the only advantage. What about my drawbacks? Any opinions?

I think a system like this has no place in a static curated world.

I don't like random loot. If I wanted random loot I would play Diablo or WOW.

What I meant with the level dependencies of unique weapons is exactly what you described. They are bound to a level. If you exceed this level the unique weapon gets replaced by a common weapon (of a higher level) which does more damage. So the "unique" weapon becomes worthless. And if I somehow encounter a boss a little bit to late (one level higher) I get rewarded with something that may last a whole level till I need to replace it.

Another example why this system is bad: Imagine 2 characters, both level 3. The warrior (strength 10) is equipped with level 1 stuff, the mage/non fighter whatever (strength 5, dex 5) has level 3 stuff, armor and weapon.

Who will win a melee fight?

Sorry this game does not use mechanics you like?

Looks like it, doesn't it?

But I think this is the root of the balance problems they have. And that they are not really sure what to do shows the massive changes in-between the beta updates.

It is just impossible to fight above or below your level because everything is level dependent. Everything.
Not only has the character his hitpoints increased (base * level) but also his weapon (base damage * weapon level) and his armor (base * armor level) are increased. That is simply to much per level.

Tactics are redundant, because you need to be the same level.

But the most important aspect for me is, that the gameplay is completely linear. You need to be a certain level to access an area. The open world is just an illusion.

It is such a beautiful game, and yes I think it somehow gets ruined by this poor system/mechanics.

I have not found that to be the case. Below level? You can always fight them. Above level encounters I've done several +2 levels, it can get tricky for sure and not a guaranteed win, thinking I've beat at least one +3 above. Pretty common though for level based RPG's staying near level, otherwise someone can make a claim that is unrealistic that my level 4 team can beat level 7 baddies.

About linearity, you have to be at a certain point sure, but it's not I have to be 6 to take on their 6's. Tactics matter. So lets say I can take on 7's and 8 baddies at level 6. Well now I have 8 levels that I can play against 1-8, why is that linear?

We also know the other side of this argument, it reached its pinnacle in Bethesda's Oblivion and it got lambasted where all encounters were scaled to you. Everything was the same fight, you could go anywhere without risk, etc etc.

There is no overall win on this one, we've been talking in circles as a gaming community for year. We can just hope whatever the designers make it will be well balanced and fun. Old school says I can't go anywhere I choose, I will hit a high level mob that forces me to go look elsewhere to gain strength. Otherwise no area is sacred, you can just go the straightest path to the end of the game.

The problems I frequently run into with the scenario you described is that moments of extreme challenge end up creating moments of extreme boredom. For example, let's say I'm level 5 and come across an area that has encounters ranging from level 4 through 8. "Freedom" allows me to take on the level 8 encounters first, which (while challenging) also quickly level my characters up. The drawback here is this freedom has now bitten me in the rear, as I now have content to deal with that is two or more levels below me. Content that will be, unfortunately, easy due to my level advantage (and easy to me = boring).

The fact that you felt you could go everywhere in Oblivion without risk is not a problem with level scaling, but rather Bethesda's interpretation of the concept.

I would happily welcome a system where I can never outlevel content, where all my opponents are artificially raised to my level (or at least a level within my level). At the same time, you don't have to decrease MOB levels to match the player, meaning there are still plenty of encounters out there for the player to be threatened (or killed) by, encounters the player can grow into. The key is to not let them outgrow the encounters, though.

At least, that's how I like it. I'm well aware that some people love to be able to get several levels over their opponents so they can feel some sense of power while one-shotting them, but for me that will always be wasted content that I prefer not to experience. I'm also aware that some players define "growth" and "progression" by being able to vastly out-level the opposition, but I am content with other forms of character growth.

I will always feel like I have to tackle Divinity : OS's content in a very particular order, lest I create a situation where I'm doomed to fight against trivial encounters due to an extreme level advantage on my part. And for a game that's supposed to embrace freedom, that really is a shame. I think it really may be the weakest point of the game for me.

Gyson, I can just say your view is one side of about 4 equal one's. No one is right, no one is wrong. Whoever is making the game that is their decision. I think anything can work if it is executed correctly.

In terms of DOS, I do feel I have to do it in some order, but it isn't that tightly forced upon me. There is definitely some fielders choice for me, but there are times I'm at a "comeback later point". To some people that is good gaming, I assume that is Larian's design as well with this game. This is considered a Hard Core design today.

You sort of have a hybrid in your thoughts, keep the high high, but bring the low up to you for a fair challenge, that sounds cools and have no problem playing a game set up like that. To note... some would hate it and when I mean some, a fair enough size of your gamers to take notice. There comeback is "if I'm leveling up I want to feel stronger, if the lowbies level with me, then leveling means little".

Did I already say there is no overall win here?

Haha, yes. But true.

This is sooo sadly true