Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity Original Sin - Beta Abusing container loot mechanics with saved games.

I'll just chime in to note that another tactical turn-based game, XCOM, added an option on game-start that would allow you to choose whether the game saves retained the random seed. (The default was to save it, to discourage save-scumming to get better results, kind of like we're talking about here. But it could be turned off, for those players that really loved to save-scum their way to a perfect result.)

In that case, those options were unlocked only after a full playthrough, but either way, as long as they're set aside as some sort of "Advanced" setting, it would give players some control over their game behavior.

Ah, XCOM (Enemy Unknown). I had a lot of fun with that game. I wish Divinity : OS had introduced similar animated sequences between combat turns. That would have been great.

Let's see... AoE. Potentially attackers you need to defend yourself from. Healers.
You seriously need to gimp yourself hard if you want to kill the resurrector, and only it before any other opponents in a lot of cases (I tried with the Pirate, and it healed just back to full with even more hitpoints than original!)

So;
* Effort to exploit, many reloads
* Massively nerf yourself in combat NOT to get it, doesn't require active player partipation to get affected by.

Surely you can tell the difference?
Divinity II also had this mechanism, and while you could reload for 3 malachites on ore, not many people did that.
It's worked for all Divinity games so far, why suddenly change it now?

Because X wrongs don't make a right?

Short of being worried about losing the ability to exploit the mechanic, why not fix it?

And, no, I still don't see a difference. Why are you describing reloading a saved game as if it's some massive undertaking?

Exactly. Multiplayer also makes it really annoying to have ppl that want to save cheat all the time.

It's like giving players a trainer on the game when you release, not really a great idea, sure you can say it's up to you whether you use it, but its such a temptation.

Just calculate them on first instance of an overhead map area.

If the loot was better / more varied with a wider variety of useful stats, it wouldn't be such a problem.

E.g. I've lost count of the number of orange robes I've gotten, yet I don't think I've ever had an orange bracers / rope. Orange boots and gloves that have suitable stats are incredibly rare.

That is all from 4 full playthroughs where I've save scummed for loots.

I don't get it Gyson, you argued your case already in another thread about this very topic and that wasn't good enough? You have to start a new one? Rather pretentious don't you think?

By the way, I hadn't played the game when I was arguing the logic of your position last time. I now have and decided to test your issue... and... well...

1. It takes about 5-10 seconds per load (I am sure longer for slower machines).

2. You are at the complete mercy of the RNG which means you could be there a long time.

3. The loot that drops is not dramatically different in quality (ie blue vs blue, etc...), so its usefulness is really only a matter of if it fits within your chosen build. (ie characters are not going to be god characters that imbalance the game).

4. Your argument does not consider the fact that some people are lucky and can consistently get what they want in each chest.

Considering the time it takes to reload, it is ridiculously inefficient to use to seek the ideal loot. For instance, I tried it to see how long it would take to get an ideal item and I was there for 10-15 mins before I finally got the loot I desired. Now... add in the fact that this is a single player game AND that people are still going to be able to use cheat programs, console commands, world editors, etc... to get what they want, this objection of yours seems pretty darn silly. Seriously, there is no way in hell I am wasting my time playing that way. I am just going to deal with what I get.

The way it is now is reasonable. Save scumming is not a game design problem, it is a problem for players with obsessive compulsive behaviors.

I'd much prefer more meaningful loot to drop from bosses and hard encounters. Stuff that is handplaced and makes sense for the encounter. All I ever get are 1 handed weapons lol.

You know, it doesn't matter what the game is, how the mechanics work, or what the specific issue is.

There are always going to be people who get upset, because somebody else might be having fun the wrong way.

In the words of H.L. Mencken:

"Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy."

Sounds like you want more powerful loot? You do realize that the one handed weapon you are getting is balanced for that as a drop even though it is random? What if it was a one handed weapon hand placed with hand set stats and a name, yet it was exactly the power and quality as the random loot you got?

I'd still enjoy it more knowing it's part of the setpiece and story. Also, I'd assume that with hand-placed loot tables, I'd receive less of the same items over and over, which has been my experience with RNG. I'm not arguing for more powerful items though and still see the importance of RNG for normal drops. Just would like to see more promised drops for large encounters like the giant axe.

So tell them that you're there to quest/explore/kill, not to save-scum, and so cut it out or else you'll find someone else to play with.

I will say though that right now, the loot could probably be a little bit better. I opened all the chests through West Cyseal and nearly all of them only had two normal items inside, maybe with a small potion. I only occasionally saw a blue item. The chest for answering Nemris's riddle was the same - which was rather underwhelming considering it's a special chest.

(I was not counting the burial mounds chests among the poor-quality number, those are fine.)

He is very good at this technique, he's done it multiple times. I've long since realized he's a troll of the worst sort: the kind lacking self-awareness.



I'll make this blunt:

• If you want RNG loot and not static loot, this is the compromise that happens.
• It's massively resource intensive to do a "seed save", not to mention a coding pain with save states (which Larian has been having issues with, esp. in regard to QuickSaves + Permanent Flags / Triggers not reverting). I'm 100% sure the current code doesn't support it, due to the way the permanent world is functioning.
• As a self-proclaimed developer, I'm surprised you're uncertain of how the RNG tables work or can even imagine that Larian don't know about this "issue". Oh, wait... I'm not.
• D:OS is primarily a single player experience (with some funky co-op + global chats); realistically, the potential to reload the RNG is hardly a problem. AGAIN this is not an ARPG where perma-death / loot abuse matters.

Still, Gyson has satisfied himself with some attention, now we can get back to reality.

Quick question: is there another update scheduled before Gold launch, or are Larian going to hot-patch after the event? (i.e. as and when issues with content we've not seen goes live)



I'm fairly convinced that full item tables aren't live and the actual % chances for drops are still being tweaked. Rings in particular etc. Creating items / effects is a weighted experience: once the code is in, and works, content can quite quickly produce a lot of McGuffins. Themeing / balancing is harder, but given the state of skills (i.e. in flux), I'm sure a large percentage of items simply haven't been put it. e.g. There's no point creating pages of +skill items if a) you're changing / renaming / removing said skills and b) you've not nailed down class skill synergies. More importantly, the macros can't be made as you cannot put <??> into your auto-balancing formulas if you don't know what the parameters are!

Interestingly, this works differently in an ARPG - Grim Dawn by Crate (http://www.grimdawn.com/) currently doesn't have all classes live, but there are items giving +skills to classes not in the beta yet. The RNG also likes to drop items with level requirements not possible in the beta - they nailed down the classes / synergies long ago, since like PoI, they're working towards focusing on MP / content after this.

I'll leave you to work out the not-so-subtle context of this observation & the OP. [i.e. FOS] Or, I could just tell you: ARPG's are basically skinner boxes, so the RNG algo's + skill synergies are the most important bit, which is why they get made first. D:OS is an RPG, so... that kinda comes after the story, narratives, arcs, settings and so on Gyson doesn't know this despite his "many years" in the business.

TL;DR


"OOOH SHINY" isn't the real focus of an RPG. It's nice but it's not a central drive point of your primary customer. Go look up that essay on "which type of gamer / MMO player are you?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Test


p.s.

D:OS is begin anticipated by a lot of people - someone I'd not considered a very 'rpg' minded gamer asked me about it on Sunday

There is going to be another beta update this week.

I don't mean to cast a reality check on the Clueless Twins here.. but this is the "other thread". Did you guys not even bother to check the date on the original post before you launched into troll mode? It's from over two months ago. I didn't make a new thread, someone simply commented on the old one.

You know.. as people do in a forum.

I believe there was another thread on this topic which I also participated in (in the General forum), but I didn't start that thread *and it's newer than this thread*. Meaning your whole "pretentious" argument just went up in smoke.

You are both clearly hopeless and not very bright. Thanks for the laugh, though.

Honestly, whatever is easier for the developer is what I would prefer - if having a fixed seed is more difficult than I say leave it as it is. Ultimately it is up to the player to decide how they want to play the game and if it is fun for someone to save/reload 5 times to get something they like than they should be able to. If you prefer not to than you don't have to - just accept the loot that you find/is dropped the first time around. I recall reading that you can save mid combat and re-kill bosses to get better drops - that I think should be discouraged by not allowing saves during combat so as to force the player to re-play a boss fight to use this exploit (apologies if this has already been done - I never saved in combat).

Finding loot is a fun part of the game and in the past I know I've exploited similar "features" in games (Master of Magic - re-killing high level nodes for books/retorts/good artifacts, anyone?), but not something I do anymore, partly from playing roguelikes and learning to enjoy adapting your play style to what you are given.

Either way, I don't think this should be forced on the player, and if someone complains that if it is there it is tempting to use the exploit, then it is on them to control themselves . I personally am looking forward to an Ironman mode where tensions actually run high. I played through the beta and had great fun (normal, 2 char with Lone Wolf) but knowing you can always re-load allows you to make stupid mistakes, not to mention never use scrolls/potions (never once used a scroll of potion of resist/+stat). Maybe I've been playing too much ADOM

I like the way Fallout: New Vegas developers solve this problem - you can't loot same chest (or use slot machine) within 1 minute after reload. So you still can cheat but it will cost you time you could have used for further exploring.

So are we taking the civility gloves off? I mean, you spent several threads whining about Hiver being insulting and here you directly attack? I mean, if direct personal attacks are ok, I can oblige, but somehow I think you will throw tantrums when you become the target of such.

Grow up kiddo.

As if you haven't been insulting in a number of other threads. My tolerance for people like you and a few other trolls on this forum has reached an all time low, so deal with it "kiddo".

Plus, the chances of you admitting your ridiculous error and apologizing for chastising me over nothing were next to nil, so I figured I might as well go with the blunt approach on this one. Even now you're trying to bluff your way through this and save face by going on the offensive instead of addressing your screw-up. Predictable, if nothing else.

If you can't handle being called out, think before calling someone out in the future. You wasted my time with your nonsense.

I recognized I made an error. I do apologize for such, but if you notice my comment was not a nasty attack. That is, I merely questioned you as being self important. You however insulted with a direct attack questioning not only mine, but the intelligence of another.

While you are justified in quip of a rebuttal, you went overboard, you became childish and insulting and your anger is quite obvious.

As I said, grow up.