Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity Original Sin - Beta Opinion: Hybrid characters are no good

I could not agree less. Terrible idea.

Path of Exile has a similar system, and it's probably the weakest and most annoying part of the game. Being forced to only use one or two skills - with no recourse - because the RNG hasn't dropped one you actually want is really annoying.

That's been my experience as well in D:OS, except that it's WORSE here, because combat is difficult, and you need to make use of your available skills to manage it. Not being able to get some that you can afford, and that you can use perfectly well - because the RNG doesn't like you is exasperating.

The idea of quests to get your skills might be fun the first two times, but eventually, people will think "Oh for ****'s sake, I just want to get Skill X for my character, do I have to do Dopey's Dimwitted Dungeon AGAIN just for this one skill?

No reason why these two can't work together - you can buy random "low level" skillbooks from vendors, but you can find rare ones while adventuring - just like rare/legendary items.

No reason at all, except the random nature of the merchant's stock makes it difficult - and very frustrating to pick up the low- and mid-level skills that are the basics of a character build.

Effectively, this game mechanic currently makes it quite unlikely that a given character will be able to develop into the one the player wants to play.

This irks a lot of people, me included.

Excessively random generation of epic spell/skill books only as loot would likely put the same damper on the endgame.

If that's the kind of game Larian wants to produce, OK. It's their game. But it will be a game that disappoints a lot of players, and therefore not a long-lived or favorite game for those players.

Basic marketing.

Can we file some kind of official request to change the skill/spellbook thing in vendors to have more current level books? I feel like it would help and in theory isn't that big of a tweak on Larians end.

I think it's been suggested elsewhere already, but +1

Right now, vendor skillbooks are generated through merchant/treasure generation (i.e. random). Last I heard, I think Larian were considering making some something specific for skill books to be less random. I don't know if they'll follow up on that, or if they do, whether it'll make it in for the release.

Since areas within the world are level based, then it should be fairly easy to make it so Cyseal vendors have spell books requiring character level 1-7 e.g., and then Silverglen could have 7-12 and so on. Then they could just unlock all books for the appropriate character levels wihtin each area.
Another way is to allow the unlocked Elemental areas in End of Time to have at least 1 of all spell books, maybe at an additional cost to make up for the availability.

Regarding the whole hybrid class thing, I think hybrids are really strong. I ran a Ranger/Water/Earth/Witch and Knight/Air/Fire combo last playthrough, which is a lot of combinations. It was quite tough early on, but after level 6 no matter the fight, I always had an appropriate respons from both characters whereas Madora as a pure warrior often was locked out of the combat due to bad placement of fire, poison and the like.

My only problem with hybrid characters right now is the Ability level requirement on gear, where Strength based weapons and armor require at least 2+ more ability points that a Dexterity or Intelligence based item of equal item level. This design choice is simply something I don't understand, I find it very odd that mages and rogues/rangers can use items dropping of a monster their own level, but warriors are required to wait 2-3 levels before they can use their items (unless they are not hybrid ofcourse). Whether it should be one way or the other, it should be equal between the different ability classes in my opinion.

Path of Exile is a completely different game.

This is just more power gamer mentality. The whole point of the game is that your character isn't just a product of planning. That you cannot decide what you get to do at every juncture of the game because you are subject to the whims of fate.

It's a modern concept that you are handed everything on a silver platter. Maybe in your game world some of the low level spells weren't researched by any of the common town mages so you have to go exploring.

Of course you don't like it because you want to completely plan out your game experience before it even happens. The ability to accept randomness and entropy in your roleplaying game is the key to immersion. When everything is planned out ahead of time then you already know the outcome.

Part of the replayability and challenge of the combat can be using the resources you have available to solve it. Not using the resources you choose to have in order to solve the tactical problem.

From a design perspective the second they have fixed/controlled spell vendor lists is the moment they might as well just let you choose when you level up. Fundamentally they're the same concept with just a small gold barrier in the way.

Just see a very pervasive mentality of players wanting everything to be completely fixed with no real dynamism to the gameplay experience. Enjoy the game as it happens, not in your head before it's even happened.

I agree with this. I'm okay with randomly generated treasures and even some shop stock to an extent, but I want to reliably be able to get my hands on the skills I want. A large part of the enjoyment I get out of games like D:OS is being able to call upon a large variety of skill combinations, and the tedium sets in rapidly when I'm forced to rely on one or two skills for an extended period.

Controversial as it is to say, this is why I actually enjoyed Diablo 3 quite a bit. Nearly every level rewards the player with a new skill or variation of an older skill to play with. D:OS doesn't need to go nearly that far to please me, but I do want a consistent and reliable increase to my skill repertoire without relying too much (or frankly, at all) on the RNG.

So what? A) It's relevant, because it uses the same skill system you're championing, and I have experience with that skill system. B) I also directly complained about the semi-random merchant inventory that THIS GAME has.




What a load of bull. This isn't an argument - it's absolute nonsense.

The point of the combat is to be difficult and require planning and tactics. To make you think about what the best moves are and try and pull them off.

How can you say that the point of the game is that you are subject to the whims of fate when literally the point of the game is that you have a boatload of freedom to choose what to do, to the point that you can murder your way through the game and still finish it.




That makes no logical sense. It's also something which would rapidly get really annoying. And don't sneer and look down your nose at me as "not old-school enough".




This is just more nonsense. There is literally zero wrong with wanting to plan out a character. You're making up a hell of a lot of crap about "what I want" and you don't even know me at all.

I really want the AI personalities in EXACTLY BECAUSE it adds a random element you can't predict.




So spending my limited gold resource to pick a skill to fill my limited skill slot resource (which is expanded through my limited ability point resource), and then deciding which skill to use with my limited Action Point resource doesn't count. Seems Legit.

(Duhhhhh...)




I can't believe you actually wrote those words down. It's unbelievable. That is so dumb that it speaks for itself.




So unless I enthusiastically endorse completely random merchant skill selection, and tediously repetitive questing for skills (also random?), I'm a drooling drone who wants everything to happen the same way every time. Beep Boop.

Don't project your ludicrous strawmen arguments onto other people.




Larian has confirmed that certain (presumed high-level) spellbooks will NOT be available through vendors, but only through questing. I just object to the idea of low-medium level ones only being available through questing.

What can you do, Stabbey?

Erra is just another in a the chain of didactic, pretentious *ahem*. You can't argue with them: they know better already.

Since you require things to be spelled out. It doesn't use the same skill system I'm championing at all because you can quest on different character types to acquire specific skills that you need. It's actually very fixed and everything but a very select few skills are attainable without randomization at all. It's also a multiplayer game with interplayer trading inherently available.

I, too, have experience with POE. Being that I've played through the game on three separate occasions at various times in its' development. An action rpg system where almost all of the skill gems can be acquired by making alts and questing for them. The only focus of that game is gear/power gaming. There is no roleplaying focus to that game. It's a completely nonsensical comparison.




Because you are a rigid linear thinker. You believe that you should be able to have the freedom to plan every minute detail of your character before he even exists. You don't even know the complete spell lists in the game but you are complaining about specific spells that aren't available...only because you know they exist and want them. You are greedy for one specific thing you know you're capable of doing.

What you fail to understand is that part of the challenge is resource deprivation...or utilizing the resources the game world gives you via randomness and making the best of the situation. You're always guarenteed to get access to some spells of the schools your character knows. What you are not guarenteed are which ones they will be. So then each time you play the game you can approach different fights at different times of the game with different availale skills and find new ways to solve the problem. You say 'best moves'...but it's the best moves YOU CAN LOCATE IN THE GAME WORLD. Not the best moves you dreamed of three months before you even played. That's not even roleplaying at all. You might as well not even play if you already know how you want to finish all the fights.

You want to have ALL of the tools available to you for ALL of the fights on -YOUR- terms rather than playing the game and reacting to the situations available to you.

More significantly is the fact that with a very open game system you could just give yourself all the spells you want and not change the core gameplay model of an immersive dynamic world for other individuals. You want the game world to reflect your vision of a perfectly planned ideal without any concept of how changing it to suit your vision would disrupt the enjoyment of adapting to the unknown.

I get it: You don't like the unknown. You aren't a dynamic thinker. You are a rigid, linear player that wants to know his solutions before the problems even present themselves. You don't want to have to think on your feet.

I do. I want the game to be dynamic and present me with problems. I'd love if my mage gets access to shit spells from the town vendor and I have to make do for awhile until I grow more powerful. Maybe I'll have to rely more on my coop partner, perhaps I'll have to rely more on my companion because my power spike hasn't occurred.

You don't want those dynamic situations in your game...but you also don't want them in ANYONE's game. You had one vision for the way the game could be played.

The difference is if you remove dynamism there's no way to simulate it by editing the character. You can always simulate giving yourself a complete spell list by editing your character.



I didn't say there was anything wrong with wanting to plan your character out. But being upset that there are factors in your development that are out of your control shows plenty about you and what you want. You are clearly very frustrated because you had a specific idea and want all of the spells to do those and yet when you cannot you demand that it be 'fixed'. You assume it is a problem and not a feature.

You never once attempted to think of the situation from another perspective: What would my character do in this situation. He surely wouldn't know that spell exists as they're just beginning to study magic. Most likely they would continue on their path and utilize the skills they have to accomplish their goals in the game world.

AI personalities have no bearing on pre-planned character development. That's just a strawman you cited in order to try and distract from your controlling personality.



You definitely showed you're a child here. You acknowledge that many other features of the game design incorporate the concept of limited resources but still pretend that the one you don't enjoy should be changed.

More significantly is that all of them have solutions. If you're limited by gold...acquire it. If you're limited by ability points...level up, take a talent...if you're limited by action points...wait a turn, level up, invest in speed/perception/con gear.

If you're limited by your spell selection...expand to other schools, explore for new spells, perhaps find another vendor later in the game that sells the spells you want?

There are solutions to all of the challenges in the game. You just don't care for this challenge so want the developers to remove it from your path and therefore reduce the emergent narratives for other people. Inherently selfish thought processes.



Insulting too. Perhaps you believe that gold is actually a limiting factor in what you do? That's rather shortsighted. It's just another barrier that can be overcome with some work. Do a job for someone, sell some of your valuables. Acquire the items you want.

It doesn't push you out into the world. If all of the spells are available from a vendor in a static, fixed list it is fundamentally identical to just picking them as you level up...actually it's inferior because there's no risk involved.

The whole point is so not all of your characters growth is determined by a static list you just click and buy. Push you into emergent experiences.



This isn't a strawman in this situation. Your statements are quite clear: You do not enjoy anything which forces you to deviate from a fixed plan of character development which you decided to prior to playing the game. Your statements, your words, your bitter language shows your character quite clearly. You do not handle being told no very well...and you want the authority to fix it. You -demand- that they do.

Repetitive questing? It's very unlikely you'll even get many spellbooks as quest rewards. That's not really the best path. Go explore a mage's tower or an ancient tomb. Venture off the beaten path. Maybe discover another vendor later in the game.

I didn't create your mentality. I just pointed out the rigid thought processes you express in your demands to have any barrier to your preplanned experience stripped away and thus ruin emergent narrative for others.




OBJECT. OBJECT. You show your mentality right there. You object to the idea. Is this the court and you're the lawyer? That's ridiculous. You still haven't given a cognizant argument of the narrative experiences that develop from having fixed spell lists?

There are none.

What about the way it helps low level combat...

Oh it doesn't help low level combat because then it allows people to already know how they'll tackle encounters before they've even created their characters.

Everything about having non fixed spell acquisition helps the game become a more personal experience.

The only issue is that it threatens individuals who demand complete control over their character's every tiny development. These are the individuals that would sacrifice others' enjoyment in order to get the experience they want. An experience that you could replicate by editing your character files for the spells you want.

It's unfortunate you had to resort to such insulting language and attempting to call me dumb because you're such a rigid, linear thinker. I hope you can consider the idea of emergent narrative more closely. It sure seems like you've never played a 4x game, X-com, or any of the classic PNP inspired RPG's this game is based on. Least of all Ultima VII which this game is heavily inspired by...

Perhaps you should trust the people who have played those games and know that the random experiences are what cement them as your own.

Good luck.

I'm sorry do you have an issue with me?

Why not try to argue my points in a cohesive manner and explain to me how fixed spell lists improve the narrative, immersive, and tactical gameplay experience.

It's not about -knowing- better through magical knowledge. It's about logical analysis based on past experiences. It's about having experienced both modes of operation and having seen which one creates a more compelling experience.

It's having been both the person that power games from level 1-20 knowing every single thing my character will do and having roleplayed completely with no power concerns at all.

There's a balance to be struck. Even as a power gamer you should perhaps examine that knowing everything about your potential before you hit the game world dulls the experience and lessens the emergent narrative.

Pretentious huh? I'm pretty sure there's nothing pretentious about emergent narrative. Quite the opposite. The entire idea is accepting entropy and going with the flow. Pretention is going on a board and demanding one aspect of a game be changed because you don't enjoy how it blocked your plans without articulating the opposite side of the argument or even acknowledging there is one.

I'll take Didactic. Not sure why anyone would consider that an insult. If anything the inability to engage in complex discussions about the efficacy of various skill acquisition decisions on player experience and emergent narrative should worry you. Expand your mind, don't close it off because of new ideas.

If you want an example of someone looking at game balance: The individual who found that TK objects can one shot enemies AND some enemies are immune had the best evaluation. He wants it to still be plausible on all enemies but do far less damage. That's an individual who sees something cause a barrier/incentive at the same time and doesn't try to close off the option to others...while also wanting to reduce the incentive to exploit.

This here is just an attempt to restrict others experiences because of a barrier. Barriers are meant to be overcome within gameplay...not by petitioning the developers.

I feel like neither of you have played Path of Exile enough to know how you are meant to actually play it. And that is entirely the fault of the way Path of Exile is designed, it's a game that i personally play but would never recommend to a new player because of how incredibly obfuscated everything is.

You ARE meant to completely plan out nearly every aspect of your character before you make a build in that game. The game is all about trading. You have to overcome things like RNG by trading. Same goes for the vast majority of your gear. Using currency to actually craft your items will screw you over unless you know EXACTLY what you are looking for and know you can get it within relatively few orbs, or you are rich. You must hoard your currency.

Another thing, you're both wrong about how many gems are drop only in PoE. There are VERY few skill and support gems that are not obtained from quests, and gem quest rewards are not randomized whatsoever. Out of the 172 (soon to be 174) standard skill gems in the game, 6 of them are drop-only.

PoE is a game that requires you to do a ton of research on to play effectively or to even begin to know what you're doing. I honestly would say to avoid using it as a comparison unless you have a VERY large amount of experience with the game, because things in that game are usually not what they seem on the surface.

I said this exact same thing. And considering I tested flicker strike when it was still a ridiculously broken skill with no cooldown that made you invincible and had a fully planned out build then I'm well aware how the game works (It also almost gave me epilepsy from the constant repositioning). Which is why I refuted him bringing the game up at all; it's simply not comparable in any way.

As a numbers based gear oriented story lite experience the game hook IS the power gaming and character planning. It's simply not comparable to a game which is focusing on emergent narrative and interactivity in an immersive world.

And I even cited your exact point: You can quest for all of the gems on alts if you need them.

Weird that you didn't read that but still wanted to include me in your point though...

EDIT: Oh I see what happened. That got cut off when I was posting it. Looks pretty sloppy, let me go fix that.

Skills are not gear.

By allowing skillbooks to be random for such a limited selection of skills, it doesn't improve gameplay but detracts from it. If you create a character with the intention of being a fire mage - and suddenly find you cannot ever find fire elemental, you're incredibly weak (but playable).
If you plan the same character as a lightning mage but cannot obtain blitz bolt... you're useless.

The random attitude of vendors concerning skillbooks is a poor one simply because there are only what, 4 spells per level? So it's not like a DnD Wizard who cannot learn fireball because he'd have acid splash, lightning bolt and cone of cold (sure, CoC is level 4 not 3 but you get the point). This game's spell list does not create alternatives within a specific tree. Without key spells you are so weak you're unable to play what you intended to.

Were there more skills per level, with choices (imagine if there were 3 1 turn cd fire spells spread between levels 1 and 4 giving options... you'd only need to find 1 of them).

So yeah, I can agree it'd be nice to have some random skill find, except skills are not treasure... skills are no different to talent points. Being unable to choose them is not fun, regardless of whether it's fun to discover them in the world.

Do you know there are only that many skills per level or is that something that people are assuming based on incomplete spell lists. Not a single person has claimed to have data mined spells.

Why aren't skills treasure? Everything is treasure. They utilize AP to accomplish goals exactly like special arrow types for an archer character. You choose your basic attack types at the beginning (Presumably you chose one without a cooldown to have a repeat ability similar to a basic attack) and you have a staff ranged attack to fall back on. Then you acquire them like treasure.

It's not fun to you. I disagree in that it's fun for me to discover them in the world as an emergent narrative. It's easier for you to manipulate the game to have all the spells than it is for me to replicate random acquisition. That's the goal...to allow for those who enjoy an unscripted experience to not be forced into going to the vendor and saying 'oh...that's all my spells I'm going to get for the next 25 hours of gameplay....fun?'

This is a beta discussion, and should information change then obviously a smart person is aware that opinions and statements will change accordingly. So for now, we can be safe in the knowledge there are no more spells.

Comparing skills to treasure would indicate that the weapon you have will affect the actions you can take within combat, this is seriously unlikely. If you have fireball, you can do something different than if you have fire elemental. However if you have a sword with +1 single handed, it will not function differently to a sword with 8% crit and 15% stun. Sure, you may act differently, but you cannot perform a different action by lieu of the stunsword.

By placing an emphasis on skills as treasure you are indicating you would prefer the randomness, but that only leads to games where you never find the spells you need for your character to play as your character - imagine finding 8 geomancer skillbooks when you intended on using a pyro/aero caster with a ranger? By allowing too much RNG to creep into gameplay you actually reduce the likelihood to enjoy the game.

To take it further, how much randomness do you want in your gameplay Erra? Are you going to random your starting characters? How you spend your points? Which option you take in game? Or are you going to do what you want and spend things exactly how you wish to? Because I'm not clear on just how you feel random skillbooks are enjoyable over, say, ending up with your starting characters putting 2 into pickpocket and 1 into 3 different weapon focuses with a 10 perception?

But obviously the above point is only relative once you understand skills are not treasure, which they're not.

I'm not going to dignify your nonsense with any more of my time.

I'm not saying you don't make some valid points here and elsewhere, but it's not very pleasant to try and argue them when you immediately jump to judgments of character. You've called people selfish, rigid thinkers, power gamers, said they've wanted everything on a silver platter, mistook the intensity of their arguments, said they want to disrupt the intent of the game, hate dynamism, and so on for expressing what are really perfectly reasonable and mild opinions.

The fact is that probably everyone here is an established gamer, a good portion of us have played a variety of the classics, and we've learned what we do and don't like in our video games. And we've come here to discuss what we would like to see changed in D:OS partly because we've every right to and partly because Larian has *asked* us to. That doesn't make any of us selfish or inflexible any more than it makes you selfish and inflexible for wanting something different than us. We're all paying for this game and it's therefore entirely reasonable of us to want it to cater to our individual desires while acknowledging and accepting necessary compromise.

So please, dial it back a bit. You have a valid and valuable perspective to add to this discourse and there's no reason it needs to be marred and ignored due to hostile accusations and unnecessary attacks of character.