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apprentice
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OP
apprentice
Joined: Apr 2014
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Pixel-hunting puzzles? Check.
Obtuse puzzles? Check.
Puzzles that you can't complete because you didn't happen to grab item X from zone Y but you have no way of knowing that you can't beat it? Check.
Convoluted story progression? Check.
A few puzzles and trapped areas (when well designed) can really add to an RPG and create a little respite from the combat, but D:OS has them by the truckload, slowing the game down to a crawl and forcing lots of backtracking. This is a shame as I think D:OS's combat is really great fun.
The puzzles thus far have been terrible as well, particularly in Luculla Forest. If someone had told me a few months back that there would be pixel-hunting in D:OS I would have laughed in his face. The plethora of puzzles wouldn't be so bad if they were actually satisfying to solve, but they're not clever puzzles.
This has completely detracted from my game experience and to be perfectly honest I don't think I can even bring myself to finish it. D:OS feels like a good RPG ball-and-chained by a terrible point-n-click adventure.
Sorry for the bluntness but I'm a little upset over this as I had really high hopes for the game.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2013
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I actually like the puzzles 
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member
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member
Joined: Jul 2014
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I actually like the puzzles Me too
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member
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member
Joined: May 2004
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Pixel-hunting puzzles? Check.
Obtuse puzzles? Check.
Puzzles that you can't complete because you didn't happen to grab item X from zone Y but you have no way of knowing that you can't beat it? Check.
Convoluted story progression? Check. Many people enjoy this kind of thing, in fact most of what you just listed were actual staples of PC RPG play in the golden era of RPGs.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Jun 2013
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Some puzzles were head scratching and borderline annoying, but I can't say I hated them. It was kinda enjoyable to finally find that elusive hidden switch and hidden room behind it.
And it's nothing new to the Divinity series - secret switches and hidden treasures hunt is part of the charm.
Last edited by Aramintai; 07/07/14 10:14 AM.
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member
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member
Joined: Jul 2014
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About time we had a challenging RPG in the vein of Baldurs Gate amd Neverwinter Night. I'm glad gaming hasn't moved so far forward they these are forgot about. The fact that this game is co-op as well makes the 'issues' you described even more fun to take on.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jul 2014
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Noes, you have to use your brain instead of mindlessly following shiny arrows and ignoring every bit of information so you can feel even more badass. The horror!
In other words, smart people enjoy the challenge, the retarded masses hate it of course. What else is new?
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apprentice
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OP
apprentice
Joined: Apr 2014
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Ignoring the actual quality of the puzzles, why are there so many of them? Why so many trapped areas? It disrupts the flow of the game.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Jun 2014
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I like DOS puzzles too. There are few annoying ones, but everything is googlable nowadays
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apprentice
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OP
apprentice
Joined: Apr 2014
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Noes, you have to use your brain instead of mindlessly following shiny arrows and ignoring every bit of information so you can feel even more badass. The horror!
In other words, smart people enjoy the challenge, the retarded masses hate it of course. What else is new? Smart people enjoy smartly designed puzzles. D:OS's puzzles are not smart by any stretch of the imagination. A smart puzzle is one where the solution finally clicks and you think "oooh, that was clever!". Name me one puzzle in this game that you thought was clever.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Jul 2014
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Pixel-hunting puzzles? Check.
Obtuse puzzles? Check.
Puzzles that you can't complete because you didn't happen to grab item X from zone Y but you have no way of knowing that you can't beat it? Check.
Convoluted story progression? Check.
A few puzzles and trapped areas (when well designed) can really add to an RPG and create a little respite from the combat, but D:OS has them by the truckload, slowing the game down to a crawl and forcing lots of backtracking. This is a shame as I think D:OS's combat is really great fun.
The puzzles thus far have been terrible as well, particularly in Luculla Forest. If someone had told me a few months back that there would be pixel-hunting in D:OS I would have laughed in his face. The plethora of puzzles wouldn't be so bad if they were actually satisfying to solve, but they're not clever puzzles.
This has completely detracted from my game experience and to be perfectly honest I don't think I can even bring myself to finish it. D:OS feels like a good RPG ball-and-chained by a terrible point-n-click adventure.
Sorry for the bluntness but I'm a little upset over this as I had really high hopes for the game. You've been spoiled by all the hand-holding RPG's that have come out in the last 5-10 years that tell you exactly where your waypoints are, exactly where to pick up the items you need, and what your ultimate destinations are supposed to be. The games that completely take the fun out of exploring; linear storybook games that, if you are lucky, give you a small illusion of being open-exploration games (Dragon Age 2 was massively guilty of this, not to mention worse things). D:OS was made in the spirit of the old mastercraft PC RGP's of the 1990's. Specifically, games like Baldur's Gate. They are for gamers that like RPG's precisely because RPGs dont "hold your hand" in an unrealistic way, as if some omnipotent god is floating over your shoulder telling you how to solve everything and where to find everything every step of the way. It's about exploring and discovering things on your own. As for me, annoyingly ambiguous puzzles satisfy me all the more when I finally solve them. Or secrets that don't tell me exactly what I need to access them - if I discover how to access them either through my own critical thinking or on accident, it's immensely satisfying. Games that allow me to completely shut my brain off are not satisfying at all. And if something is really troubling you to the point where you fear you might stop enjoying the game, you can always look online for solutions to problems or difficult fights. EDIT: It should be noted that in the last 2 paragraphs I'm speaking on good RPG's in general here, not really D:OS specifically. I'm trying not to be biased since enjoyment of such things is highly subjective. So for my only big complaint in this game is the extremely average, unimpressive inventory management. It really grinds my gears that I can't type in an exact number when I want to split a stack, for example, and instead I have to incessantly fiddle with a slider until it lands on the right number.
Last edited by ManureTruck; 07/07/14 10:30 AM.
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apprentice
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OP
apprentice
Joined: Apr 2014
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About time we had a challenging RPG in the vein of Baldurs Gate amd Neverwinter Night. I'm glad gaming hasn't moved so far forward they these are forgot about. The fact that this game is co-op as well makes the 'issues' you described even more fun to take on. BG2 is my favorite game of all time. The devs understood pacing, and thus anything which breaks the flow of the game is either confined to its own space (ie. bodhi's gauntlet), or simply used sparsely as a break from all the combat. In D:Os my adventuring is being constantly interrupted by stupid trapped areas and silly puzzles. I can only toss so many barrels before my patience runs out. You've been spoiled by all the hand-holding RPG's that have come out in the last 5-10 years that tell you exactly where your waypoints are, exactly where to pick up the items you need, and what your ultimate destinations are supposed to be. The games that completely take the fun out of exploring; linear storybook games that, if you are lucky, give you a small illusion of being open-exploration games (Dragon Age 2 was massively guilty of this, not to mention worse things).
D:OS was made in the spirit of the old mastercraft PC RGP's of the 1990's. Specifically, games like Baldur's Gate. They are for gamers that like RPG's precisely because RPGs dont "hold your hand" in an unrealistic way, as if some omnipotent god is floating over your shoulder telling you how to solve everything and where to find everything every step of the way. It's about exploring and discovering things on your own.
As for me, annoyingly ambiguous puzzles satisfy me all the more when I finally solve them. Or secrets that don't tell me exactly what I need to access them - if I discover how to access them either through my own critical thinking or on accident, it's immensely satisfying. Games that allow me to completely shut my brain off are not satisfying at all. And if something is really troubling you to the point where you fear you might stop enjoying the game, you can always look online for solutions to problems or difficult fights.
EDIT: It should be noted that in the last 2 paragraphs I'm speaking on good RPG's in general here, not really D:OS specifically. I'm trying not to be biased since enjoyment of such things is highly subjective. So for my only big complaint in this game is the extremely average, unimpressive inventory management. See above.
Last edited by artemis42; 07/07/14 10:33 AM.
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member
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member
Joined: May 2004
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BG2 was a hand-holding RPG, in my opinion. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that BG1 is the PC RPG that kicked off the whole hand-holding era. Obviously, it got far worse later.
Divinity: Original Sin is more in the mold of early-to-mid '90s games, like Ultima VII, not late '90s games like BG. (Ultima VII has in fact been cited many times by Larian as the inspiration for the game)
Last edited by Fireblade; 07/07/14 10:31 AM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jul 2014
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Noes, you have to use your brain instead of mindlessly following shiny arrows and ignoring every bit of information so you can feel even more badass. The horror!
In other words, smart people enjoy the challenge, the retarded masses hate it of course. What else is new? Smart people enjoy smartly designed puzzles. D:OS's puzzles are not smart by any stretch of the imagination. A smart puzzle is one where the solution finally clicks and you think "oooh, that was clever!". Name me one puzzle in this game that you thought was clever. Jake's murder. Shutting down Sparkmaster 5000 without a fight. The elemental riddle north of Cysael. To just name a few.
BG2 is my favorite game of all time. The devs understood pacing, and thus anything which breaks the flow of the game is either confined to its own space (ie. bodhi's gauntlet), or simply used sparsely as a break from all the combat.
In D:Os my adventuring is being constantly interrupted by stupid trapped areas and silly puzzles. I can only toss so many barrels before my patience runs out.
BG 2 didn't have many puzzles or deadly trapped once you got decent equipment/level. In fact it became very easy after you hit level 13/14 with your sorcerer/wizard which was achievable in mid of act 2.
Last edited by Sykar; 07/07/14 10:38 AM.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Jun 2014
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... Try TSW to know the real meaning of hardcore puzzles xD
I love adventure games, the old-school ones (The longest journey; Broken Sword; The Neverhood, Monkey Island) those were my favorites, and ofc, TSW, I freaking love that MMO, it's just the best one I've played. I feel right at home with D:OS quests =) God, I love investigating!
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apprentice
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OP
apprentice
Joined: Apr 2014
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Jake's murder.
Shutting down Sparkmaster 5000 without a fight.
The elemental riddle north of Cysael.
I'll admit that I just charged in and wrecked the Sparkmaster, but as for the other two, how are they smart puzzles? Jake's murder is a series of steps which involve basically speaking to everyone you meet and exploring everything. As for the elemental riddle, do you mean the statues? That's one of the most obvious "puzzles" in the game.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jun 2013
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I haven't completed the game yet, but can't you basically murder your way through most of the game?
Not like an adventure where you can't progress at all without completing obtuse riddles.
I agree some of DOS's puzzles are little obtuse but most of it locks off optional side quest content in my experiences so far.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jul 2014
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Jake's murder.
Shutting down Sparkmaster 5000 without a fight.
The elemental riddle north of Cysael.
I'll admit that I just charged in and wrecked the Sparkmaster, but as for the other two, how are they smart puzzles? Jake's murder is a series of steps which involve basically speaking to everyone you meet and exploring everything. As for the elemental riddle, do you mean the statues? That's one of the most obvious "puzzles" in the game. You have to figure out that you have to break in into Esmeralda's cellar and get into the secret room. Basically figuring out where the important clues could be hidden. I searched throughout quite a few other houses like the Mayors, the Inn, etc. for this quest. And yes, the quest line was clever, or did you think it would turn out that both the healer and the apprentice were working for the Conduit basically?
Last edited by Sykar; 07/07/14 11:21 AM.
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apprentice
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OP
apprentice
Joined: Apr 2014
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Might want to spoiler-tag that. Yea, and what is in Esmeralda's cellar? Pixel-hunting. The only reason I didn't get stumped was because I was picking up every bit of food anyway. None of the steps in that whole chain requires cleverness, only mindless searching.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Mar 2004
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Yea, and what is in Esmeralda's cellar? Pixel-hunting. The only reason I didn't get stumped was because I was picking up every bit of food anyway. None of the steps in that whole chain requires cleverness, only mindless searching. So, if I understand you correctly, secret areas should be highlighted with neon signs and bright flashing lights because otherwise they are too hard to find? The very definition of a secret area is that it should be hard to find, otherwise you can't really call it secret
Ke se marei gola
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addict
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addict
Joined: Aug 2013
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some puzzles and riddles annoy the hell out of my butt.
but i love them the hell out of my butt.
less hack and slash (turn based style) more get-your-brain-working
are they perfect? no. (some are very cool, though).
is it differenct from other games. yes in terms of quantitiy (a LOT more than every other game i have played so far), kinda in terms of quality (some very good, some annoying one - but there's no accounting for taste even for puzzles)
thumbs up!
"I don't make games to make money, I make money to make games". (Swen Vincke)
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jul 2014
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Might want to spoiler-tag that. Yea, and what is in Esmeralda's cellar? Pixel-hunting. The only reason I didn't get stumped was because I was picking up every bit of food anyway. None of the steps in that whole chain requires cleverness, only mindless searching. 1.) I hid it already prior to your post. 2.) That is your opinion. I thought the quest line was clever. And yes, being perceptive is part of a puzzle as well. Besides only 5 pieces of meat had to be moved/stolen to show the switch to the secret room. Furthermore you can zoom in so calling it pixil huntin while you can zoom in is a bit comical.
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apprentice
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OP
apprentice
Joined: Apr 2014
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I haven't completed the game yet, but can't you basically murder your way through most of the game?
Not like an adventure where you can't progress at all without completing obtuse riddles.
I agree some of DOS's puzzles are little obtuse but most of it locks off optional side quest content in my experiences so far.
I'm afraid to do that because of the game-breaking bugs I've read about, but many puzzles are compulsory and part of the main story.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Apr 2011
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Pixel hunting? ALT! Problem solved. As for good puzzles... the 'clone dungeons' very early near Cyseal come to mind  Or would you disagree on those too. If so, I would like to know why. Esmeralda's was easy if you loot all anyway... *AND* the rats tell you about it... *AND* you already see it when you're down there (unlike secret areas in most RPG's). How much more handholding than that do you need? Also I find it humerous that you say 'why so many trapped areas' and then compare the game to Baldur's Gate. That game has traps coming out of your nose. If you didn't have a rogue, you would be in for a hell of pain. Think Durlag's Tower in BG1 for example... and then look here and see; It's not that bad...
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jul 2014
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Pixel hunting? ALT! Problem solved. As for good puzzles... the 'clone dungeons' very early near Cyseal come to mind Or would you disagree on those too. If so, I would like to know why. Esmeralda's was easy if you loot all anyway... *AND* the rats tell you about it... *AND* you already see it when you're down there (unlike secret areas in most RPG's). How much more handholding than that do you need? Also I find it humerous that you say 'why so many trapped areas' and then compare the game to Baldur's Gate. That game has traps coming out of your nose. If you didn't have a rogue, you would be in for a hell of pain. Think Durlag's Tower in BG1 for example... and then look here and see; It's not that bad... Traps were mostly harmless for a mage/sorcerer with Mirror Image in BG 2 since they worked against AoE spells as well.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Jul 2014
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Well, my absolute favourite adventure games, and this isn't why I like them, it's just a feature I guess, you actually can't die. I mean, there is one part in Syberia where you can die, but there's like a 10 second task and you get maybe a minute to complete it, but that's it. I guess they are more like novels. I don't think you can die in The Longest Journey either, maybe something with the...spoilers...spacesuit or whatever.
You can definitely die in this game, not with proper tactical planning, but there is a lot more to it than pointing and clicking. Still, a history in adventure gaming certainly does lessen the frustration some hardcore rpgers might be facing.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jun 2014
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Might want to spoiler-tag that. Yea, and what is in Esmeralda's cellar? Pixel-hunting. The only reason I didn't get stumped was because I was picking up every bit of food anyway. None of the steps in that whole chain requires cleverness, only mindless searching. [/spoiler] I actually agree that the quest was poorly executed. There are very few instances like it elsewhere in the game, though.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2014
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But you don't have to do that to progress through the game it's not a compulsory puzzle. you can brute force into Evelyn's hut without ever talking to Esmeralda There are a few compulsory puzzles though.The puzzle elements are heavier here than some games and it's not everyone's cup of tea. Calling the puzzle elements terrible just because it's too hard for the OP is pretty much par for the forum though.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Jul 2014
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But you don't have to do that to progress through the game it's not a compulsory puzzle. you can brute force into Evelyn's hut without ever talking to Esmeralda There are a few compulsory puzzles though.The puzzle elements are heavier here than some games and it's not everyone's cup of tea. Calling the puzzle elements terrible just because it's too hard for the OP is pretty much par for the forum though. A lot of the puzzles were terrible. Like the one where you have to find 4 tiny buttons that perception/alt won't detect, then realize that one of the countless books you picked up along your journey wasn't just spam, unlike the 99.9% of them that were, but in fact held the key to the puzzle.
Then there was that temple where you needed to light the torches, or whatever, in order to enter, even though it should've been possible for you to just telekenisis your pyramid over the chasm. But you couldn't, because there was an invisible wall there.
Big deal? Well, barely a moment after that you're faced with a puzzle that look exactly the same.... except you have to throw your pyramid over and teleport to it, which the game just conditioned you into thinking wouldn't be possible, with its invisible wall in the previous area.
Stuff like that is what made the puzzles bad. You bombard the players with books that are all pointless spam (and not actually interesting to read, with text like 'this book describes the adventures of gooraah the barbarian' fullstop, so you condition your players to not even look at them), then you require them to read a book in order to solve a puzzle. You erect invisible walls to prevent one way of solving a puzzle in one room, then require that you solve the next puzzle in exactly the same way that you established wasn't possible in the previous room.
Never mind the parts where sometimes you remove obstructions by attacking them, other times you remove them by walking through them, other times you remove them with hidden buttons right next to them, other times you remove them with hidden buttons in entirely different rooms, and other times the obstructions are just red herrings... there's no consistency at all. So the "puzzles" just boil down to try everything you can think of in every room you come across and hope that one of them work out purely by chance.
This isn't fun, it's just wasting your time as you mindlessly go through the checklist then move on.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2014
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So what is a sophisticated puzzle to you?
I've played games that have puzzles like: you come to an eagle shaped hole in the wall, you have in your inventory your pistol, bullets, and an eagle shaped crest.... Gee I wonder what you should do?
I've also played Professor Layton which is basically a compilation of Mensa style brain teasers encased in cute stories.
Do either of those games qualify for good puzzles?
The myst series that gave birth to the point and click games, games like Grim Fandango, Siberia, and the Phoenix Wright series, they were critically acclaimed, but they have their fair share of "pixel hunt" and red herrings and puzzles that require multiple approaches to solve, so does that mean they have bad puzzles?
Good and bad are so subjective to the user. If you don't find it fun, I feel bad for you because I too find certain things unfun. But it doesn't mean the game is broken or needs fixing
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jul 2014
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But you don't have to do that to progress through the game it's not a compulsory puzzle. you can brute force into Evelyn's hut without ever talking to Esmeralda There are a few compulsory puzzles though.The puzzle elements are heavier here than some games and it's not everyone's cup of tea. Calling the puzzle elements terrible just because it's too hard for the OP is pretty much par for the forum though. A lot of the puzzles were terrible. Like the one where you have to find 4 tiny buttons that perception/alt won't detect, then realize that one of the countless books you picked up along your journey wasn't just spam, unlike the 99.9% of them that were, but in fact held the key to the puzzle.
Then there was that temple where you needed to light the torches, or whatever, in order to enter, even though it should've been possible for you to just telekenisis your pyramid over the chasm. But you couldn't, because there was an invisible wall there.
Big deal? Well, barely a moment after that you're faced with a puzzle that look exactly the same.... except you have to throw your pyramid over and teleport to it, which the game just conditioned you into thinking wouldn't be possible, with its invisible wall in the previous area.
Stuff like that is what made the puzzles bad. You bombard the players with books that are all pointless spam (and not actually interesting to read, with text like 'this book describes the adventures of gooraah the barbarian' fullstop, so you condition your players to not even look at them), then you require them to read a book in order to solve a puzzle. You erect invisible walls to prevent one way of solving a puzzle in one room, then require that you solve the next puzzle in exactly the same way that you established wasn't possible in the previous room.
Never mind the parts where sometimes you remove obstructions by attacking them, other times you remove them by walking through them, other times you remove them with hidden buttons right next to them, other times you remove them with hidden buttons in entirely different rooms, and other times the obstructions are just red herrings... there's no consistency at all. So the "puzzles" just boil down to try everything you can think of in every room you come across and hope that one of them work out purely by chance.
This isn't fun, it's just wasting your time as you mindlessly go through the checklist then move on. To summarize: blub
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