Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity - Original Sin - General Bad AI, too easy game. and some other things.

Hello everyone,
I hope my "subject" isn't too provocative.

As a beginning, I'd like to say that I've loved this game till now.
I am actually playing it with a friend in coop.
I won't deep talk about coop chats issues, even if it's a big flaw on a game which was thinked as a coop game; moreover for a game which was released after some alpha release and had many reviewers feedbacks. This game was released some time ago, and we still can't enjoy it as we could.

We've played on hard till the beginning, and we've enjoyed the challenge.
Then we reached lvl 10, and went on the second map. And the fights are a piece of cake. Of course we're fighting lvl 10, some 11, and we tried 1 or 2 lvl 12.
I have to say that my friend and I play our own way with our 2 characters in fights : if we were playing solo, our 4 characters would play more effeciently as a team. Moreover, we don't use leech (which seemed op), and we don't abuse resistances.
And it's getting boring.

And the main problem in the fights is obvious : the IA is almost inexistent.
Enemy characters (animals, bosses, humans...) focus the closest character. They don't care if it's a golem, a tank, or one of their seduced mate. "I am a AI ranger who can 2 shoot this mage? Yeah, but it's more fun to do 2*20 damages to this tank under fortification." "They summoned a skeleton? Let's focus him turn after turn with poison spells." "This fire golem heals when i cast fireball on him? Let's keep trying, it will surprise them".
And the pathfinding is a joke : "Hey I am a mage, I am trying to getting close to you, I walk on fire, I lose half my hp, I stop my turn in fire and I heal myself". Sometimes, folks start near my mages, they run around my characters, are striked 2 times by opportunity attacks, then don't do anything and stop their turn...
So sad...

As said before, we've loved this game. But I don't know why the harder difficulty set is this one.
By the way, our team is : a rogue BS, Madora with a 2-hands sword, Jahan as a crafter/spell tool box, and a dps mage fire/earth.

With Jahan, I've spent hours to try crafting, I've made delicious meals while getting water in wells one bucket after one other, and I know I can build some nice weapons.
But I craft less and less : we never had to eat food, and since the fights are this easy with our actual stuff, I won't spend time to make them easier. And I don't see the point of crafting stuff to sell it when you are rich since the 5th hour in the game without knowing anything in pickpocketing or lockpicking.

So I am not crafting anymore.
And we are about to stop playing.
The game in the first map was excellent, nice subquests, a lively town, nice fights. I have the feeling you put most of your efforts in the first city, (in the "second" one, we have in a tavern 10 marchants gathered around tables... so realistic).
The second map is less rich? Finally it wouldn't really matter, as long as the huge quality of this game stays : the nice and rich fights. Without them...

And It would be so simple to "fix" this : make some behaviour for the opponent (for exemple : "focus the weakest").

Do you plan to work on the AI, or to add a difficulty level?

Thank you for reading all this, as you can see I'd love to love again this game.

<<edit: corrected "IA -> AI" and new typos >>

Sounds like this just confirms the old 'sad' truth ...that not matter how much you want to get a new game, it just really isnt worth it til 6 months after release when it will hopefully have been patched up to what it was supposed to be from the beginning. (and you can usually get it at a decent discount). I wish the industry wasnt like this, but has been since ...well last many years.

In the end I guess the producers figure they make money by getting their games out there faster and then patch post-release rather than do a longer more thorough beta-test.



PS: Im currently still on the first map and taking my sweet time, hoping for a patch to come out before I sink too many hours into the game ...

You are not alone in thinking the game is too easy. After beating the game for the first time, I decided to challenge myself in a different way.

I began a new game on hard, with the "Source Difficulty" Mod to make it a little harder, and the main thing is, I'm only using 1 source hunter to fight, I just left the other one in the city. Also, no leeching, stealth abuse nor rain stacking...

It's a lot more challenging, but even with all this, the game still is kinda easy. Sure, I have a lot of trouble against CC, but normally I don't have to do much to win.

If you can actually stand a chance with just one character, without cheesing fights, on hard, and with a mod making it harder, there's obviously something wrong with the game.

I think the main problem with difficulty lies in the extremely easy access early on to many skills and a lot of items/money.
Too much CC available for the player.
Too much skills to counter anything the enemy can throw at you. Why was the first part ok? Because you still don't have access to so many skills.
Later on you can, buff, prevent being CC, CC the enemy, do a lot of aoe damage easily.
It's not just the AI, the enemy does pathetic damage. My LW hunters have both approximately 1000 hp at lvl 12-13 something, don't rmember exactly. And that's without taking other +hp talents and without investing in constitution. With all the armor and/or skills to decrease damage, the enemy just can't hit me so hard that it matters.
I just go in and smash them. If, when rarely they decide to attack my mage instead of my warrior i can simply go invisible or cc or teleport them or just buff my mage with some armor/damage decrease skill and don't care.
The player just has too many options to counter anything the enemy can throw at them, this makes the fights formal. The only thing close to challenge after the first town i had was when i was lvl 10-11 and was fighting lvl 14 mobs cause i wandered into some area that was not supposed to be for me (the NPC was saying - you are still too green for here), lol.
Even then it was okish, nothing special, but still interesting, and that's 2-3 lvls above. Granted, that with leveling up and gearing it's normal and ok and good that you feel stronger and stronger, but that means that the game should have more zones in which mobs are higher than your level where you can get a challenge.
It looks like the player development goes too far ahead of zones where you are and there is no challenge left.

Totally agree with opening message. I was so pleased with the first map (I was like "that is the best game I've ever played !"), and then I went to the second...

I expect that developing an AI for this kind of turn-based combat is pretty damn difficult. Or in the least, it would take as much development man-hours as the rest of the game put together.


Is the following remotely possible: using co-op to allow the second player to control the enemy creatures???

Could this be accomplished with few development man-hours than perpetually improving the AI?

Recently, my party of 3 (1x Lone Wolf 2h warr, support archer w/ terrible DPS / Jahan + Fire) reached Silverglen and I was level 11 and soooo completely gratified. I too, started to notice that the fighting was becoming a bit too easy, my LW warrior a little too well-built... I ended up just basing the fight strategies off buffing him and watching him clobber the masses. Although it was pretty effing sweet to have the 2h axe drop off a certain 'big boss' at the end of map 1. Regardless; I am putting this game file on hold-

The above experience was already outlined to avoid any cheese to help sustain difficulty-over-time; no stealth, no glass cannon, no invis, no comeback kid or madora, no leech, no scum saving loot, no resist-stack, no cain or other henchmen with bonus perks, ect. Still, as the previous posters explain once your toolkit becomes too large/powerful, things start to go your way in a hurry. It's so much fun to finally arrive there... but THEN? The consumables-side of crafting becomes extraneous and this is an important point for me - because I love the crafting in this game.


I already have begun planning a new game. Here is as far as I've gotten for a great idea;

-No Lone Wolf, my last warrior was just too strong.
-No Magic Trees - but scrolls are OK. All my characters are going to only have points in MaA, Scoundrel and Marksman. Plan is 1x armored sword/shield, 1x armored 2h fighter, 1x mainhero archer, and based on how things go I may include a 4th henchman (possibly another archer because I plan to craft the living sh*t out of arrows)
-No Crafting-Slut Henchman
-Giving all my characters Five-Star Diner as their level 7 perk-pick. The hope is to rely on consumables, which will act as a stimulant to really search for all available crafting mats and bank edibles and potions on each toon.

Between this, my RP arbitrary rule of no stealing, and the continued need to shop for combat-effective Scrolls, I should have a proper gold sink as I head continue from level 10-20. Level 10-20 is basically where we would prefer adjustments, right?

It's sad, but it seems to me you are right. This game wasn't perfectly polished when it was released... I guess they couldn't wait anymore, but it's surprising to see that when their KS was a big success, and that the game was in early access... Why going "gold" then from early access when you are not fully ready for it?



In fact, as you say, it is simple :
In the hardest difficulty setting, the mobs should be buffed, and the actual level 10 should have mobs' level 12 or 13 stats.
Actually, the game is poorly balanced. It should have stayed a challenge (in its hardest level) for players like you and me. And if we couldn't beat it, we would still have 2 easier levels to find the right difficulty.

To Windspin and Trancid :
You are both right.
We can try to find a way to make a challenge. By not using some skills, not putting armors... by not playing all the nice possibilities the game offers.
But I want to play this game with all its features. And trying to find a way to make it hard while there is obviously a problem in difficulty in the levels 10-20 annoys me.



I don't request a strong AI. I just request it to not make stupid moves. I think that putting some orders like : "focus the character who has the less HP"; "don't attack with elemental effects someone who has +100% res in this elemental effect"... wouldn't request so much time.
And don't forget the "don't run in fire, or in and out opportunity attacks range".


And even without working in the AI, buffing the mobs may do the trick.
In every forum I've checked, people who have played this game in hard setting from the beginning complain about it being too easy in its second part.
And as I said before, without challenge in fights, the second part gets boring.

So Larian, or anyone who heard about this :
Is balancing the game in the second part, and/or increasing fights' difficulty in the hardest setting, something you plan to do soon?

I absolutley love this game but I have to agree with the op. But really i think all the problems with difficulty with this game really are caused by the bad AI. Thinking back so many fight put you in difficult situations, its incredibly rare that your not outnumbered but since the AI is so dumb you can usually breeze past supposedly "hard" fights without having to heal once. I can think of many things about the AI that rly must be changed some of which the op mentioned:

1.AI targeting priorities(needs to be changed from targeting closest enemy to a slightly more complex system of highest threat and easiest to attack, i.e. if a ranger is doing loads of damage then an enemy warrior should try kill him but not if hes behind a wall of fire)

2.Attack of opportunity and increased hazard awareness.(sure I can understand the AI maybe letting themselves get hit by your warriors if they are trying to flee, but not moving for no reason other then to get killed faster)

3.Ability effects and resistance awareness.(Of course maybe dont make it so enemies never hit your fire elemental with fire magic but as soon as they hit it the first time and realise it just heals it they should stop, also there needs to be decreased chance enemies will attack charmed enemies because that just makes charm so op.Also one thing i noticed on the first map skeletons try to heal friendly zombies if they are damaged which ofc just damages them more, im guessing these guys work together alot they should no healing does the opposite to zombies in this game.)

4.Stealings to easy.(less of a combat AI problem but its far to easy to become completely loaded even at level 3 just from stealing things from under peoples noses, they should at least make it so you can steal something then sell it to the person you stole it from)

However id say the second area is still pretty challenging IF the AI stopped doing things like sitting in the fire or walking past my 2 warriors without thinking about the consequences.

Hopefully fixing the AI is at the top of larians to do list but we can never know, hopefully in the next patch along with some new companions.

NOTE: There is a temporary solution for all of you finding the game to easy and thats simply to download difficulty mods, i think some people have made a few that work well.

just make hard mode -5 bodybuilding and -5 will power, and -75% elemental resist.
You can thank me later modders.

Edit: WTHTHISISUNFAIRQQQQQQRAGEQUIT mode: give all AI +50 ini and 5 movement. Happy swearing

I don't have time to sift through it all, but I think I found your problem: "We've played on hard till the beginning, and we've enjoyed the challenge."

As for the difficulty, I have to apologize because I know the type of gamer that LETS a game like DOS get too easy for them. Stop doing it, resist the urge to clean each town of everything, stop re-loading on that boss/chest until you get OP items, accept failures in fights/stealing/dialog, maybe keep the secrets vendor a tiny bit more secret, did you really have to kill all those NPCs eventhough you successfully struck a deal, you're telling me nobody in the entire game knows you're the burglar who took EVERY SINGLE painting and sold them IN TOWN... I mean come on, I see you people.

Stop abusing the game so heavily and wondering where the challenge went. Honestly save the song and dance about how you play X build because its harder, or ways you personally justify you dumb dicking the game in several areas. Maybe its your co-op buddy, just mention it at least and get some of the challenge back.

If you're simply suggesting a Impossible game mod, built into the game, I of course agree with you. It's just obvious they wanted to hand the reigns over to the modding community. I like to hope it frees them up for make DLC and further the series.

If the enemies hit you hard with physical damage, you use leech to counter it.
If you die from elemental attacks, you build up resistance.
If the enemies are too tough, you build more damage.
If they hit you with cc, you build willpower and bodybuilding.
If you don't have enough money, you get stuffs to sell.
etc...
How is that dumbing down? Are you suggesting that I shouldn't build against physical damage but taking off armors, use lvl 3+loremaster rings to counter elemental attacks, use lvl 3 weapons, never build willpower or bodybuilding etc...? That's what I call dumbing down

Just to make things interesting, I'm going to use a rather odd movie allusion as a rhetorical device.



Jean Girard: Do you know why I came to America Monsieur Bobby?
Ricky Bobby: Health care systems, giant water parks. The same reason anyone comes to America.
Jean Girard: I came here for you to beat me.
Ricky Bobby: What are you talking about?
Jean Girard: My husband Gregory and I want only that what every other couple wants. To tame komodo dragons in Sri Lanka and teach them to perform Hamlet. But before I can do that... I must be beaten by a driver who is truly better than me.
Ricky Bobby: You saying you're going to lose to me on purpose?
Jean Girard: No.
Ricky Bobby: No?
Jean Girard: NO! I will battle you with the entirety of my heart and you will probably lose. But maybe, just maybe, you might challenge me. The Beatles needed the Rolling Stones. Even Diane Sawyer needed Katie Couric. Will you be my Katie Couric?

If you're playing a game on the highest difficulty setting possible, you're not doing that because you want to avoid the power plays. That's something you might try on Normal. No, if you're going for the highest difficulty, you want to battle the game with the entirety of your heart... and maybe, just maybe, the game will challenge you. You're looking for your Katie Couric.

And right now Hard really, really sucks as being Ms. Couric.

OP

But I think that's exactly what you (and others) are asking for.

I think I'm just arguing for patience towards Larian on behalf of the players. They worked/are working their asses off and they've put out a really great product. But that product is not a fantasy based tactical simulator, it's an all-encompassing RPG.

Plus, we as players (who have seriously grown addicted to min/max'ing), have every trick at our disposal. Designing new characters, respeccing existing characters, customizing our own equipment, and simply reloading the game (among other tricks, I'm sure). I guess I just think it'd be damn tough to design an AI (in a limited amount of time) that didn't do some stupid stuff when confronted with all that.

No. It's the developer's responsibility to limit and balance the game because one of the enjoyable parts of a game is to play tactically and/or strategically well so that you can beat a high challenge. And games - not just in terms of video games but games throughout history - are all about one player/team fighting against another player/team. And no true player enjoys playing with someone that is weaker than them. They want a challenge. To win against a challenge is what gives satisfaction. To handicap yourself to play someone weaker may be morally satisfying, but it does not satisfy the ultimate objective of beating a legitimate challenge.

TLDR it's the prerogative of the developer to provide a challenge, because what a gamer wants is to figure out by any means how to overcome that challenge. Otherwise, you don't have a game, you have just an interactive story. This is why finishing a game is called "beating a game."

If the challenge is not there because balance is wonky and abuses are widely possible, then why even bother spending the effort to handicap yourself, if you can spend just as much effort writing up your interactive story in Notepad?

I hate people save scumming and then complaining the game is too easy...

It all comes back to the PnP feeling of the game...
Ever playd DnD and asked your dungeon master to roll that D20 again because you were unsatisfied with the result?

Hello there.
I will quote my op :
"I have to say that my friend and I play our own way with our 2 characters in fights : if we were playing solo, our 4 characters would play more effeciently as a team. Moreover, we don't use leech (which seemed op), and we don't abuse resistances."
We didn't abuse the system. We just played it.
We just leveled up our characters in the way their class was supposed to (come on... a rogue who can BS and goes to shadows? a dps mage? A STR-madora? A utility not dps Jahan?). We don't do huge combos, don't talk about strategy...
I know some people completely broke the game (100+ res, leech...). And even there it's sad because they don't use a complex trick : they just use the tools the game offers them.

The truth is simple : Larian failed to balance the game for level 10-20 in its hard setting (I don't know for the other ones). Maybe because they didn't have a lot of feedbacks from alphas reviewers on this part?
But again : by playing as we did (no reloading, only using loot and some bought weapons, coop with no big strategy or mini-maxing, a 4-party with a Jahan not very efficient...) the game should have given us a constant challenge. There are many ways to be more efficient than our way of playing this game.



I want to be patient with this game, I wouldn't have come here if I had totally lost hope.
But I really don't request a STRONG AI, and I think most of guys here don't request it (even if we'd love to have it someday ).
No, I want an AI, a light average one. I just don't want to see stupid moves anymore.
We just want that :

(I won't deep talk about the easy money issue here, even if I could...).
These few things would make the fights so much better.
I know it's still some work to do, but giving some rules "if X > 100, don't use spell YYY" or "attack X who got the less value in armor if in range" wouldn't be so hard I think.

And you ask for patience, I really can give some. But I would really need an announcement from Larian on this subject.
Do they plan to repair/improve the difficulty curve anytime? I haven't heard anything on this subject since the game has been released (and the first feedbacks came a few days later).
So.. should I be patient?

I didn't reroll any loot even if I kept looting awesome shields when I don't play them, didn't reroll any fight cause my main character was dead and lost xp, didn't reload to avoid this *** trap I din't spot and killed 3 of us. Cause it's part of the game, and it makes nice stories.

I just played the game.