|
|
|
stranger
|
OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2014
|
This is message to Larian Studios.
There is no question Divinity:os is exceptional game. The sales are good and popularity is high. But this will last for limited time, because eventually people will finish game and move on. You might release expansion , and couple of mods will be made by community. But as it is now, the mod situation is not exactly booming. In fact its similar to games like TES:Skyrim or Torchlight , where most of mods are slight rule modifications and funny additions, but there are rare actual quests and story mods.
But this can be different. Just take a look at first NWN.
And its popularity as shining diamond of user made content.
Many people expected that D:OS will replace NWN on this field as new and honestly better game in many aspects.But this is obviously not happening.
Reason is simple.
A person could enter NWN editor and make playable mod with no knowledge and in 10-15 minutes. It was so simple. And yet it was complex enough (if you wanted) to have mods vastly superior to original game.
I think that Divinity:OS is close to this. I think we could have next NWN. A game that people still buy 10+ years after.
You guys should go and look what made NWN editor so simple (like prefab rooms/terrains for example) Instead of working on expansion, work on making editor better. Heck even release it as payed expansion (i am sure people will buy it)
I want to be able to make a dungeon with simple traps and monsters in minutes.
Please for all RPG gamers - make Divinity next NWN!
|
|
|
|
|
|
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Aug 2014
|
I agree that it's in Larian's best interest to improve the editor as much as they can within the next few months, which I think is part of what they're working on. That said, it's hard to make something so complex become simple. They need a serious user experience expert to come in and rework some things. Some things need to be integrated into the editor that just use text files at the moment (afaik), like treasure tables and character stats and stuff like that. The more stuff you have to do outside of the editor, the less appealing the editor is itself.
I never used the NWN editor, and though I did play that game a decent amount, frankly I never found all that many good modules. But I think comparing NWN and Divinity editors is hard, at least for visual things, because Divinity is far and away better looking, and when a game has much more visual potential, it's a lot harder to just throw a few objects into a prefabbed room and call it a day. Sure, more prefabs would be nice, but I don't think that would help that much, and modules would just look more generic.
To a certain degree, having a medium-high learning curve isn't all that bad, because then it means you only have people who are reasonably dedicated making modules. If people aren't willing to spend some time learning the editor, honestly they're probably not going to produce a very good module. That's not to say that the editor shouldn't be made easier to use, but just to show that learning curves aren't always bad. There was a massive number of garbage modules I filtered through for NWN, but I think for Divinity we're going to have a smaller but higher quality selection in general.
Back to what Larian could do though: release many more official tutorials with some better production and foresight than the previous ones. The other ones weren't bad, but with a little editing and a few clearer explanations, things would be a lot better. I'm thinking like in the atmosphere video when the guy talks about region triggers and how they have to do with the fog of war that eats away. As far as I can tell, they don't have anything to do with the fog of war, but with making it so you can't see other areas at all. That's a little thing of course, but there's lots of those kind of things that add up and make the videos a little less helpful overall.
There also needs to be some documentation in the editor itself that explains the purpose of sliders and functions and the like. And more tooltips would be nice. Unfortunately, for actual changes, the longer Larian waits, the more annoying it's going to be for experienced users to have to relearn stuff, unless it's just a snap and makes total sense. That's just a small little issue.
|
|
|
|
|
|
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Jul 2014
|
I couldn't agree more with the original post. I've been close to writing something similar over the past few days. I am very appreciative that they've given the opportunity to use the editor, but it is extremely cumbersome to do the simplest of tasks.
Initially, I was optimistic at the pace video tutorials were being released, but unfortunately they came to a screeching halt. It is also a little frustrating to not know if anything concrete is planned for streamlining things. I feel like if the opportunity to mod was presented to more people, the overall quality of mods would improve. More people would be involved and more would continue to fine tune their craft.
It would be so nice if the Sidebar was expanded upon. NWN's toolset is a great example. You can immediately edit any possessions, equipment, stats, skills, and scripts directly from their properties/sidebar menu.
Anywho, I sure hope some more tutorials (whether user or Larian-made) are made soon before I lose interest. I also hope the editor can become less cumbersome.
|
|
|
|
|
|
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Aug 2014
|
Yup, I'm reading everything about the editor and waiting before it gets more "bulky" before I try anything.
As an experienced game programmer I see the current scripting as something "strange", it's complicated enough to not allow new users to quickly learn, and "unique" enough that programmers don't quite get it right away.
So you are basically getting the worst of each world :c
|
|
|
|
|
|
apprentice
|
|
apprentice
Joined: Aug 2014
|
Divinity Engine will never be as simple as the Aurora Toolset. It can't be. NWN's areas in modules were tile based, that's what made it so simple to use. Click and place, click and place. Didn't matter if it was indoors or outdoors. Everything was click and place. The only thing similar is that they both have a complex scripting system that allows for so much, but that's where the similarities end more or less.
Divinity works on a much different system. The landscape is not tile based and it isn't just full of prefabs like Aurora/NWN was. That cliff you ran into in NWN is a prefab, but in Divinity it's dozens of well placed rock models to make it look like a cliff. The trees are individual, not a group of trees in a tile. There's just no comparing the two really. Divinity Engine is much more complex, and that's one of the things that's hurting it.
Complexity isn't the only problem with it though, in my opinion. The main obstacle I've found is the complete lack of documentation except for a dozen or so video tutorials that just don't explain things all that well. The lack of instructions for Divinity Engine is a huge turn off for people. They can't just jump into it like you could with Aurora. It's a much slower process. I started working with Divinity Engine as soon as I got the game. I've started a mod which has one large area (probably twice the size of the first area in the original campaign) and a lot of smaller places attached to it (like caves, etc). I'm STILL working on a small portion of that map where the main town will be. The rest of the map remains blank.
Divinity Engine is tedious and has a HUGE learning curve, especially compared to Aurora. That in addition to the lack of documentation and complexity of it is what will stop it from ever having a community like Aurora had (and still has). There is no fixing it really.
Last edited by Quaxo; 05/09/14 05:48 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Jun 2013
|
I created some PW using Aurora, and other big mods, using various editors. The Divinity Toolset is a big crap, there is a learning curve for absolutely everythings, nothing is intuitive. Utter disappointment. But Larian made so much money out of this crap they probably utterly don't give a shit about anything now. But, hey, what did you expect ? They are not short of a lie.
Fuck off Larian.
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2013
|
I definitely agree with OP ;/
I think there is a "fixing" possible, but for that Larian would have to devote some serious coding manpower to the project. The editor is quite honestly horrible and some things are not just unintuitive they are flat out badly thought out. It is very powerful but everything is cumbersome to do. Nearly as if the editor had never actually been streamlines for workflow, but rather the Larian internal workflow was streamlined for the editor. This also explains why features were dropped, of course they couldn't possibly have been integrated in a timely manner with this editor!
The sad part is we've been asking this during the post KS period dozens of times, will the editor be user-friendly (please make sure it is), please make sure documentation is there. Please include examples and proper tools.
I just hope Larian realizes that a properly streamlined editor would save them a LOT of money because things could be done INFINITELY faster than they can be done currently.
The problem with the editor is that skills required to actually make a full campaign in this are so advanced and extensive that very few people are even working on mods. And without Norbyte, advanced modding would be literally dead. (Model Import, Animations, etc.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Aug 2014
|
I definitely agree with OP ;/
I think there is a "fixing" possible, but for that Larian would have to devote some serious coding manpower to the project. The editor is quite honestly horrible and some things are not just unintuitive they are flat out badly thought out. It is very powerful but everything is cumbersome to do. Nearly as if the editor had never actually been streamlines for workflow, but rather the Larian internal workflow was streamlined for the editor. This also explains why features were dropped, of course they couldn't possibly have been integrated in a timely manner with this editor!
The sad part is we've been asking this during the post KS period dozens of times, will the editor be user-friendly (please make sure it is), please make sure documentation is there. Please include examples and proper tools.
I just hope Larian realizes that a properly streamlined editor would save them a LOT of money because things could be done INFINITELY faster than they can be done currently.
The problem with the editor is that skills required to actually make a full campaign in this are so advanced and extensive that very few people are even working on mods. And without Norbyte, advanced modding would be literally dead. (Model Import, Animations, etc.) Exactly! I think they should just make the Editor open-source and be done with it. Just put a few things like the compiler still in private and no harm is done to proprietary code. Since the game is not even "finished" right now I'm actually waiting a little to see if there are any announcements about the Editor. Because I'm actually very eager to make my own programming language (intending to have visual scripting too) that compiles to D:OS script.
|
|
|
|
|
|
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Jun 2013
|
This also explains why features were dropped, of course they couldn't possibly have been integrated in a timely manner with this editor!
The sad part is we've been asking this during the post KS period dozens of times +100 Only two month I know from the official release of the game. A lot of things can be done if Larian shows a true dedication to this POS, so there is still hope. Although I really doubt it more and more. Godammit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
stranger
|
|
OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2014
|
Divinity Engine will never be as simple as the Aurora Toolset. It can't be. NWN's areas in modules were tile based, that's what made it so simple to use. Click and place, click and place. Didn't matter if it was indoors or outdoors. Everything was click and place. The only thing similar is that they both have a complex scripting system that allows for so much, but that's where the similarities end more or less.
Divinity works on a much different system. The landscape is not tile based and it isn't just full of prefabs like Aurora/NWN was. That cliff you ran into in NWN is a prefab, but in Divinity it's dozens of well placed rock models to make it look like a cliff. The trees are individual, not a group of trees in a tile. There's just no comparing the two really. Divinity Engine is much more complex, and that's one of the things that's hurting it.
This is exactly what I am saying - although you explained it perfectly. Just putting documentation will not be enough. Some serious work should be done on editor. Creating prefabs is must, among other things. Perhaps even a mode where some kind of tile system exists. This might be as big as a new project for Larian. But the investment would surely pay out. Even if the improved editor would be sold as DLC. Heck I am sure if Larian puts this improved editor project on Kickstarter - They would have backing in one day.
|
|
|
|
|
|
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Jul 2014
|
I think the comments on the Aurora toolet being so much better because of being tile based and the Divinity Engine simply needing more prefabs is COMPLETELY missing the point. I don't mind the engines complexity from a landscape creation standpoint. I don't like the complexity of bringing any function to the mods.
For example, if you want to have a starting armor set for the player character, you can't simply choose what you want them to wear in the sidebar, but you have to edit armor sets in text files. I have several other examples but I just don't feel like typing them, but will if anyone cares. I honestly can't think of one bit of content creation that is easier to do in the Divinity Engine.
I just want to be able to use this thing and not feel like I'm spinning my wheels so bad.
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2011
|
This is message to Larian Studios.
There is no question Divinity:os is exceptional game. The sales are good and popularity is high. But this will last for limited time, because eventually people will finish game and move on. You might release expansion , and couple of mods will be made by community. But as it is now, the mod situation is not exactly booming. In fact its similar to games like TES:Skyrim or Torchlight , where most of mods are slight rule modifications and funny additions, but there are rare actual quests and story mods.
But this can be different. Just take a look at first NWN.
And its popularity as shining diamond of user made content.
Many people expected that D:OS will replace NWN on this field as new and honestly better game in many aspects.But this is obviously not happening.
Reason is simple.
A person could enter NWN editor and make playable mod with no knowledge and in 10-15 minutes. It was so simple. And yet it was complex enough (if you wanted) to have mods vastly superior to original game.
I think that Divinity:OS is close to this. I think we could have next NWN. A game that people still buy 10+ years after.
You guys should go and look what made NWN editor so simple (like prefab rooms/terrains for example) Instead of working on expansion, work on making editor better. Heck even release it as payed expansion (i am sure people will buy it)
I want to be able to make a dungeon with simple traps and monsters in minutes.
Please for all RPG gamers - make Divinity next NWN!
I agree. Streamlining the process and making the UI improve quality of life is a plus.
"There is no such thing as absolute freedom because we are still prisoners of society"
|
|
|
|
|
|
apprentice
|
|
apprentice
Joined: Aug 2014
|
Perhaps even a mode where some kind of tile system exists. This will never happen. It would involve rebuilding the game engine to support such a mode and, judging from the very little work they've put into improving the current editor, I doubt they would even consider it.
I just hope Larian realizes that a properly streamlined editor would save them a LOT of money because things could be done INFINITELY faster than they can be done currently.
I'm not sure what you had in mind when you wrote this, but it makes absolutely no sense. How would streamlining the editor save them money? Once they game is bought, that's it. There's no extra cost to them as it is. They've sold a few hundred thousand copies so far, which amounts to somewhere past $5M at $39.99 each at least (not that they get the full amount from each sale). They've got more than enough to fund their next project (DOS was done with just under $1M). Doing nothing further with this game will save them money. Spending time and manpower improving this game and the toolset would cost them money, not save them money. There are still game breaking bugs present in the game and there are toolset breaking bugs. Like now, I can't even create a new module without it telling me it couldn't create the module, even though it creates it anyway. Trying to edit that module at all results in the toolset crashing. The whole thing was great in concept, but when it comes down to it, Larian has thus far failed to deliver the complete package.
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2014
|
I think the comments on the Aurora toolet being so much better because of being tile based and the Divinity Engine simply needing more prefabs is COMPLETELY missing the point. I don't mind the engines complexity from a landscape creation standpoint. I don't like the complexity of bringing any function to the mods.
I completely agree here. Imho it also makes much more sense to compare the Divinity Engine Editor to the NWN2 toolset rather than NWN1 toolset. I posted around release some quick impression and camparision about NWN2 vs Divinity Editor here: http://www.larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=42990&Number=510259#Post510259 First of all, although i didnt back the kickstarter campaign (somehow missed it) i followed develepment of this game for some time with great interest, especially triggered by the powerful editor which comes with the game.
Couple of years ago (6-8) I messed around a lot with the NWN2 toolset aswell including importing assets into the game and retextured models.
As I am still waiting to find shared time for the coop campaign ( i can't wait to play this formidable game finally, so far just did some fast beta runs and loved it so far). Thereofore in the meanwhile I started to have an initial look at the editor and I couldn't resist to compare everything to NWN2 toolset (although the games are different and so the editors), and raising question about the possibilities and limits of the divinity engine (which is far more than just the editor).
I really see the potential of this game and the engine, just curious where are the limits (which can be pushed once again;)
What is the good, the bad and the ugly? I am sharing my first impression, please feel free to complete as my list will be rather uncomplete.
Very first impression was, the Divinity Toolkit is less intuitive, but after some videos and guides, i doesnt make a difference so much.
the whole pathfinding, AiGrid / Walkmesh seems to be far better than NWN2: This was a huge issue and one of the main failures of NWN2 and I remember creating unplayable areas. (also resources seem to be handled more effectively)
Rotating on all 3 axes. Rihaa! I was selling my soul for that back in the days with NWN.
So far I couldnt find any tint-function based on RGB-tint-maps. This was rather genius with NWN2. Especially for retexturing work. I found in the textures DM (diffuse maps), NM (Normalmaps) SM (specular maps?) and some werid MSK. Though some of the SM and MSK look like RGB tint maps (with one color). Well Skin and hair is tinted. My question if that's possible for armor/bodyparts, placeables and items.
Regarding the tinting of placeables, i remember seeing a kickstarter video where they introduced the powerful material editor and applied all kind of material on a statue. I shouted out loud for happiness when i saw that. How much hours I spend to retexture models just because we needed a different material.
This partly could make the tint function obsolete, though didnt find out how to do that so far.
The wall function for houses looks like a really good solution (instead of tilesets), though seems to be rather limited so far what you can do.
I love to play in isometric view, though also would like to have a look around option. As far as i could see, is that the out of the box assets are not made for different viewing ankles. The skyboxes are also limited. My question is, if this is rather a limit of assets or the engine aswell?
Plugins could help a lot, as they also really pimped up the NWN2 toolset to its p
Overall handling is fine, though would like to be able to do more with Shift, Ctrl, Alt Keys plus mouse R+L
Questions raised in my head:
How will be the whole file handling and import export of assets?
What amount of resources (placeables in the came) the game can handle to stay playable. ( I saw the Cyseal area is actually one huge area)
what are legal and technical restrictions to import (custom) assets from NWN2 (OMG nwvault.ign.com is down since some days)
What functions of NWN definately will never be possible with the divinity engine (more than 8 players, skydome with actual moving sun moon stars, ...)?
That's it for now, I certainly will find more things and would be very interested to hear your (to you ol' NWN people now messing around again with the editor) opinion as would be flattered by any answers to my questionsby larian or insiders.
cheers
I personally remembered how still during NWN1 times during developent of NWN2 I was eagerly unpatiently waiting for some non Tileset based mapping and a little more eye candy. And although NWN2 had its flaws and somehow flopped it was not that bad successor to NWN1. Especially the toolset of NWN2 was rather polished with excellent plug in interface intuitive mapping, script wizards and so on. D:OS with that UI and plug in support was a dream! Sure here the effort to create nice good looking maps increased significantly (other content like scripts remained to same effort to NWN1). But still there were released tons top notch community mods, (unfortunately nwvault.ign.com is down to give an impressive picture), which at the end also were more eye candy and more beautiful than NWN1 ever was. NWN2 main flaws (DM client, huge file sizes, Server transitions) were affecting the persistent world and multiplayer projects that D:OS so far is not supporting at all. (The file sizes and walk meshes seem to be much better in D:OS though.) From my experience with NWN2 and why it flopped to be the NWN1 succesor in so many peoples eyes, i think you can tell, that D:OS has a potential but still needs a lot to step in that footsteps (that the actual successor didnt manage too well). As i posted somewhere else i think we would need a kind of official addon that brings us needed features:
Larian should consider the Addon "Divinity infinite". This ultimate expansion pack adds persistent world functions, a dm client, lots of assets to the toolset as general improvements to the editor. Additionally this Addon adds a new parts of rivelon as ready world to play in and tell your stories. (there is not expected any deeper story, just the world to have a start and good example...)
What sounds like a personal daydream could be considered seriously. Heck, I bought actually all addons of NWN 1+2 more or less just for the assets, features and functions to play and build PWs and custom adventure mods for friends.
As I agree that 64 players. At least in one area certainly was to much for a turn based game, 16 could be a fine start. Just interested what major overhaul is needed to push the limits of the engine...
Could be aswell a way to outsource (I guess mostly assets) certain things to the community and hive some quality custom content developers the way to alienate their work...
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2013
|
Perhaps even a mode where some kind of tile system exists. This will never happen. It would involve rebuilding the game engine to support such a mode and, judging from the very little work they've put into improving the current editor, I doubt they would even consider it.
I just hope Larian realizes that a properly streamlined editor would save them a LOT of money because things could be done INFINITELY faster than they can be done currently.
I'm not sure what you had in mind when you wrote this, but it makes absolutely no sense. How would streamlining the editor save them money? Once they game is bought, that's it. There's no extra cost to them as it is. They've sold a few hundred thousand copies so far, which amounts to somewhere past $5M at $39.99 each at least (not that they get the full amount from each sale). They've got more than enough to fund their next project (DOS was done with just under $1M). Adding those 2 new companions to this game takes as long as it does exactly because it's nearly impossible to integrate new characters into an already existing campaign with this editor. Aside that, what I was thinking about is the expansion that is going to come. A better stream-lined editor makes everything happen faster. And time is money in game development. When you occupy your map makers and scripters for 6 months on 1 map because the editor has flaws then they are not making new maps for other things in your project pipeline. Meaning everything takes longer. They will use this editor for years to come
|
|
|
|
|
|
apprentice
|
|
apprentice
Joined: Aug 2014
|
Adding those 2 new companions to this game takes as long as it does exactly because it's nearly impossible to integrate new characters into an already existing campaign with this editor. Aside that, what I was thinking about is the expansion that is going to come. A better stream-lined editor makes everything happen faster. And time is money in game development. When you occupy your map makers and scripters for 6 months on 1 map because the editor has flaws then they are not making new maps for other things in your project pipeline. Meaning everything takes longer.
They will use this editor for years to come
Ah ok, I see what you mean now and that makes sense. I'm beginning to wonder how well an expansion or further projects they work on will do considering the mess this has been since release. There's still time to do damage control, but they need to start showing some results like fixing the numerous serious bugs in the game and toolset.
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2013
|
Adding those 2 new companions to this game takes as long as it does exactly because it's nearly impossible to integrate new characters into an already existing campaign with this editor. Aside that, what I was thinking about is the expansion that is going to come. A better stream-lined editor makes everything happen faster. And time is money in game development. When you occupy your map makers and scripters for 6 months on 1 map because the editor has flaws then they are not making new maps for other things in your project pipeline. Meaning everything takes longer.
They will use this editor for years to come
Ah ok, I see what you mean now and that makes sense. I'm beginning to wonder how well an expansion or further projects they work on will do considering the mess this has been since release. There's still time to do damage control, but they need to start showing some results like fixing the numerous serious bugs in the game and toolset. Fixing the game issues people have should indeed be the top priority... anyhow I just mean that I am here for the editor, and the editor is not really in a state to really make mods, or for that matter, the actual game. I honestly have no idea how they made D:OS with that editor ;P But it explains why the 2nd map is nay complete empty in terms of quests and stuff to do. D:OS seems nearly like a proof of concept with story more than a game when I think about it. Oh well. My real fear is that the expansion will try to shoehorn an "continuation" to the main OC instead of being an entirely "separate" experience. You may bash NWN1 campaigns however you wish, but to me the expansions were substantially better and more fun exactly because they were very very different from the OC. And then of course user campaigns blew everything officially made out of the water. Because they don't have to peddle to political correctness or have to skip topics that may cause shit-storms ;P And because of that, user campaigns for NWN1 can tackle serious mature topics, be horror or evil campaigns, or just be perverted. In the end choice is what makes a game a classic. NWN1 has user campaigns that fit the taste of everyone, no matter whether it's funny or dark. Perverted or family-friendly. Story driven or hack'n slash.. etc. And when it comes down to it, that is what made NWN1 so popular. Aurora allowed to create a lot of very diverse stuff relatively easily and the low graphic fidelity made creating content very quick. And the big hubs sharing modules didn't filter or restrict content and because of that creators got creative and we ended up with some extremely big modules. I mean, how many games you know where modders literally wrote 120+ hour campaigns that were superior to professional "writing"? Thad had 5 episodes, epic conclusions, extremely long story arcs and proper connection between chapters, memorizing choices, what characters you picked etc. ? That is not even possible to do currently in D:OS editor.
|
|
|
|
|
|
apprentice
|
|
apprentice
Joined: Aug 2014
|
Yeah, there's limitations to DOS that are kind of silly. Like when playing multiplayer and joining a game, you're just stuck with whatever character the host chose, whether you like it or not. Really kind of sucks.
Fixing game issues should definitely be a priority, especially the game breaking bugs. I was really drawn to this for the editor as well, but you're absolutely right. In it's current condition it's useless to most people.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jun 2014
|
+1 to the original post.
Larian, any word on it? we could use more PR.
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2013
|
+1 to the original post.
Larian, any word on it? we could use more PR. Actually we could use any PR  There hasn't been any since their "vacation" or if there was, as usual, they are ignoring their own forums for greener, more ignorant pastures maybe.. (I am talking about Facebook ,p)
|
|
|
Moderated by Bvs, ForkTong, gbnf, Issh, Kurnster, Larian_QA, LarSeb, Lar_q, Lynn, Monodon, Raze, Stephen_Larian |
|
