Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity - Original Sin - General Str/Int Hybrids and in game difficulty

Hi, there.

First I would like to congratulate Larian for this awesome game, I'll give this masterpiece a smiling 9,5/10 :D

However I would like to discuss some balance issues:

I've a party consisting of 4 hybrids, all of them on lvl 18 and i've noticed several downsides because of that. The only reason they don't seem to be so much weak than pure Str or Int(or even Int Hyb wich is very strong) is that the game is easy once you've learn to do basic CC like summons and blinds.

IMO Str/Int hybrids suffer the most and would suffer even more if the game had a harder diff mode because:

1 - In harder diff modes there is little room for error, CC is vital and hybrids will always have less chance to apply them meaning you will have like 20 or 30 chance of screwing up even if you prioritize correctly. Add that to high BB and Will of enemies in late game and you will fail many times when applying CC. Again it might not seem that bad given the easy nature of the game but it would show it's flaws should a harder diff come. Not only that but your hit chace will be very low too.

1 ps: Even using divine light is a drawback because it means wasting 5 or 6 ap to get to the enemy and cast it.

2 - This is the worst: if you invest just enough points in Str to wear plate armour and 12 Str Shields, let's say 11 + 2 from items. If you get attacked by weak status your str is reduced by 2 and you automaticaly unequip your shield and armour. This is a huge disadvantage because you will not only be defenceless for the time it takes to remove weakness but you''l also spend 1 or 2 rounds equipping yourself again.

3 - Int hybrids get no penalty: I know, a mage should be getting more schools of magic because it's a mage, anything less than 2 schools would be a bit lacking.

I find the most strong hybrids are those who invest 1 or 2 point in one school and 8-10 int to achieve 100% chance to get buffs, while investing hard on Str or Dex.

The thing is, hybrids should get a penalty for the versatility they bring, but this penalty is just too costly when it comes to Str/Int.

I just can't consider a mage who has 2 schools as an hybrid because any good mage would have that, it's almost like changing form mace to sword on a warrior :)

A good solution would be to:

1) Don't remove armour and shield when we get Weak Status, this is the worst form of CC available. The Str and Dmg penalty is already enough.

2) Give us a new talent only Str/Int Dex/Str Int/Dex Hybrids could choose. This talent would increase hit and status skill chance/dmg by 5% for every 1:1 invested in schools.

Ex: 1 Man-at-arms : 1 Geomancer - 5% bonus to hit, status and dmg.
2 Man-at-arms : 2 Geomancer - 10% bonus to hit, status and dmg.
3 Man-at-arms : 3 Geomancer - 15% bonus to hit, status and dmg.

A character with 3 or more schools would get the bonus of the higher ones:

2 Man-at-arms : 2 Geomancer : 1 Hydro - 10% bonus to hit, status and dmg.

This would allow hybrids to stay consistent but the penalty is that they will have to spend 1 talent to stabilize.

I use a main Str, secondary Int hybrid, and I don't use the disables reliant on Int for him. I think a 20-30% fail on a disable over a pure Int character is very reasonable. He can still teleport the enemy away, control the environment, buff, etc. If he could also disable just as well as the pure Int character, why wouldn't everyone be a hybrid?

You can invest in Lucky Charm to improve your hit chance for your hybrid characters.

What do you mean by an "Int hybrid"?

Just a couple of off-the-top-of-my-head, probably bad ideas:

Maybe instead of armour getting removed if your stats become too low to use it, instead its protection is reduced to 0 for the duration of the lowered stats?

If your stats become too low to equip a weapon, perhaps instead it increases the AP costs of all normal and weapon-using attacks by 2 AP?

That's what I said in my post, Main Str low Int chars are the best hybrids. It's not just a 20-30% penalty to disables(wich are vital).

It's penalty to disables, skill damage, hit chance, having to choose between int and Con/Speed wich also are very important and the chance to loose armour and shield in combat.

Also, while you teleport someone a pure warrior would Knock them down (High Str) for 2 rounds getting 100% hit chance and get 50% DMG with bully. Unless there is a lava surface, then teleport is obviously superior, but that's pretty rare.

I'm talking about 3:3 or 4:4 Hybrids here. They have to bear all the penalties above for variety in spells. But what good is variety if you cant CC or do proper damage?

A Scoundrel/Ranger would do much better because they are both based in Dex.

With my solution they would still have to invest in Str and int while giving up some Con and Speed AND would have to get the new talent, but that would get them more stability.

IMO that would be a fair trade in power, as it stands now, it's simply not worth it or a very limited choice on good combinations.

The difference between 1 Attribute base hybrid and 2 attribute based ones are simply too much.

Int hybrid would be a mage like Hydro/Aero, he still gets variety whithout severe penalties becaus he can just invest in int.

Maybe lowered mobility? -50% dmage -2 strength and 0 protection would still be a bit too much wouldn't it?

Also 50% Blocking to 0% blocking is the difference between life and death

Str/Int hybrids are by far the easiest class to play. The first character uses divine light or/and lower or nullify resistances. The next one low level witchcraft spells like blind. The last two deal damage.

This is just one example. You might need a tiny bit more time to kill actually, that is just it. Strength should only be slightly priorized to int, 1 or 2 talent points need to be sacrifized at the demon in Homestead.

I am just (for example) running a level 21 charcter with 20 strength, 12 int, something like 14 speed. A LOT of that coming from gear. 1H/shield combination for blocking, witchcraft and 1st level geomancer for Crowd Control.

No need to change anything, these guys are downright amazing if played right. Especially in a tank role they are (nearly) decoupled from strength, I can easily imagine to play a character with reversed stats (my hybrids so far got strength first).

Regards,
Thorsten

I don't agree that they are the easiest class.
It may seem so when you get good gear and high level(also after you buy Stat Boosts).

At later levels they get even with pure Chars but before that they get severe penalties.

At lvl 15 or so they start getting even and even so you need to have better gear in comparison to pure chars to stand a chance.

And as I said, the better hybrids are those that only invest in int for low lvl buffs, and invest the rest into main stat, in this scenario I agree they are pretty much even in power.

Otherwise hybrids are almost always inferior for most part of the game.

What specific "hybrid" are you saying is underpowered? If you're trying to use two or more of the three main stats to do your base damage and CC, then yeah, you're going to have problems. But that's sort of like complaining that a character who gets to level 5 in bows does more damage with a bow than someone with 3:3:3:3 skill in 4 different weapons categories can do with whatever weapon they decide to pick up.

If you instead make a hybrid that focuses on one of Str, Dex, or Int, and then maybe dabbles in one of the others, you'll be fine. A truly balanced hybrid gives you versatility, not power.

I'm talking about penalties beign too severe when you choose 2 schools that have different boosting attributes and level them evenly. If those penalties would also affect hybrid mages like pyro/geo or hybrids like scoundrel/marksman then it would be balanced.

Why does a 4 man-at-arms/ 4 Hydro suffers from low hit-chance, unreliable CC, high cooldows and can't invest properly in Speed or Con while a 4 Pyro/ 4 Geo would have none of this?

I can use your own logic: Why does a guy who learns Fire(5) and Earth(5) magic can have the same efficiency(with Fire spells) as a guy who focused only in Fire(5)?
The one who specialised in Fire alone should be better at it, isn't it? As of now it is not.

And as I said, versatility isn't good when you fail too many CC or hits. For versatility to be good it has to work. Mages can have the versatility of 3 different Schools and would not have any of the issues mentioned above. Also true for Scoundrel/Marksman.

Maybe you are failing to see that spending those points it's already a penalty, because you can't fill both roles per turn, only with high level gear gving you speed. A pure char would be filling 1 role per turn and would have those points spent in weapon dmg or saving throws, while the hybrid would have the flexibility to choose wich role to fill in a round, but without that extra point in dmg or savin throws.

I believe that double attribute builds should be more reliable, after all you're spending points that could be going to BB or will or weapon damage.

In some way I agree with you that it just makes sense that a "split" build should not be as strong as a pure build. I just believe that the benefits and penalties are badly implemented.

This. You trade flexibility for raw power. Nothing wrong with it, game works fine with it (I never experienced problems with hybrids - and I play a lot of them in different combinations), so no need to change. In fact the flexibility makes them stronger (= more useful) during the game.

Never change a running system. Period.

Regards,
Thorsten

Well I can do that too:

Felixibility does not work as it should, period.

You would not change it, you would improve it. It's running but it's definetly weaker in a wrong way.

It's an obvious choice between:

"I'll Stun that guy hit the other for damage"

and

"Maybe I can Stun that guy and Maybe I'll hit the other for damage"

Sorry but you don't use arguments, you just say it is balanced because you can get over the penalties when they are at high level OR when you use 4:1 5:2 hybrids.

I'm done with your posts. It's not personal, it's just that I like to hear ppl opinions when people actually refute what I say.

Just saying "it's running works geat for me" it's not an argument because it's not what's beign discussed.

To simplify this discussion i'm pointing out flaws in the way the penalties are implemented, not that I think there should not be any penalties.

Some are posting to tell me that I should have penalties while I do not disagree.

A good implementation would be:

Specialized in Witchraft can blind for 3 turns at 15m range
Hybrid with witchcraft can blind for 2 turns at 10m range

As it is now it's based much more on luck than on skill or tactics. Some luck is good for gameplay because it adds unexpected events, but too much of it sucks, really.
Hybrids having 30% high chance to reduce their versatility to nothing.

Of course, doing that would require too much work, so a new talent improving evenly leveled Classes would be the best option to mitigate that huge difference between pure and hybrids.

The penalties would still be there, but it would be more fair.

Only that you do not have penalties. Hybrids are the (nearly exact) equivalent to a bomber/fighter in tactical wargames. I never ever in my gaming life saw someone complain: Hey, this beast is weaker in plane attack compared to a fighter AND weaker against ground compared to a pure bomber, therefore I am penalized.



Sorry but you don't use arguments, you just say it is unbalanced because you can't play it right.

Regards,
Thorsten

Are you sure about that? If so, it's a change.

Getting your stats lowered to the point that some of your inventory becomes un-equippable doesn't (or originally didn't) cause the items to unequip back into your inventory; they just become hidden in the slot and will reappear there once you met the requirements again.

This.

This is a good example of a better way to implement of "Intelligence/Strength/Dexterity too low" penalties than blanket flat succeed/failure checks.

The skills work, but because your stats are lower than a hybrid, you are less effective at them in a clear and understandable way.

Succeed/failure checks can still be appropriate for some skills, but there is more room for nuance than just leaving it like that.




Gordyne is correct.

Saying "I like the current system, so everyone else should stop complaining" is NOT a valid argument - it's just white noise.

A valid argument would be "I like the current system for the following reason(s): ______________ " wherein you explain the reasons why you like the system.

It happened 3 times in combat when I got "weak" status.

My Cleric had 13 Str(+2 from items) and I was wearing 12 str armour and shields.

So i'm sitting at 11 str because of weak status without armour and shields.

Weapons are also unequipped.

Beign weaker and having a high chance to not work at all is obviously different, but you're making a huge effort trying to ignore that, even as I stated many times.

I can play just fine, I'm level 20 with 4 Hybrids and only died twice.

Your lack of arguments is becoming a little embarassing.

Yes you do, but you get the bonus of versatility.

The thing is, your penalties are always active, while your versatility can fail many times.

Get it?

I'm really trying to make a point here without making an enemy. I just ask that you do the same.

This, I don't really see as a problem. Frankly, being a mage and picking only ONE school is not a good idea, because if you run up against enemies strong to that element, the mage is going to be a load in the fight. If you're deliberately building a character willfully ignoring that, it's silly to then turn around and complain.

If you want to think of it in other terms, a mage who spends points on Fire 5 and Earth 5 will be great at those schools, but will have fewer points to put towards other abilities. A Fire 5 Only mage can put those skill points to use doing other things.




I can confirm that having your stats lowered definitely DOES unequip the item into your inventory, it's happened to me repeatedly.

I agree, I was just showing that while mages have very little downsides with multiple classes, cross-attribute classes have just too many.

The best idea would be to develop entirely new skills that only Str/int Dex/int classes could have, but that would be a matter for an expansion.

Mages should be getting multiple schools more naturally and other hybrids should have less penalties.