- We can discuss for eternities what a RPG is and what not.
No, we actually can't, because it's already discussed and pinpointed. The same way a waltz is not a sonata and the same way an RTS is not an FPS, an action sandbox is not an RPG. Simple.
- The fact that Lacrymas like Beethoven and I like techno and heavy metal more tells us nothing about Beethoven. This is just our personal taste.
I'm so tired of repeating myself. I'm just using Beethoven as an example to get my point across that personal taste doesn't diminish or enrich Beethoven (or ANY GOOD art). This has nothing to do with what I like or don't like.
- Game companies are companies. Their goal is to make money. Lets assume that all Blizzard games are bad (just an example). Why should they care as long as they sell millions of copies?
They don't care, that's the problem. I can discuss the economic and philosophical ramifications of companies that only exist to make money all day, but without wanting to spark a flame war between rival schools of capitalism I'll just say that there is a difference between companies who make money to make games (Larian) and companies who make games to make money (AAA industry). Gamers who like quality games can tell the difference between painstakingly-crafted masterpieces and cynically produced shovelware thrown into the trough to be gobbled up, trust me.
- Lacrymas, your reference to peer review is useless. Science is about facts. Games are about fun. Games do not need to be true or realistic, they only need enough consistency so they do not break immersion. For example, if you have housing in a game, would you want to lock or unlock the door every time you leave or enter your house, maybe find the key first in your inventory?
There are games that do not care at all about realism or consistency but they are fun to play (Sam and Max hit the road for example.
Art is about facts as well, don't delude yourself. Art is also peer reviewed and that is how it's deemed important or average. Games aren't ABOUT fun, they are ABOUT a lot of different things. Horror games can in no way be called "fun" in that sense of the word. And before you misunderstand me again, that doesn't mean the horror genre is bad, I actually love it. It's about other stuff that isn't "fun". Horror is, again, just an example, there are a lot more. There is also a difference between WELL-MADE games where consistency is one of the main reasons for it. This has nothing to do with realism. It needs to be consistent in its world, whatever that world may be. Its internal logic shouldn't be cracked and abused because it's easier this way. Warhammer 40k is in no way realistic but it REVELS in its ultra-violence and grimdark-ness, it doesn't start throwing clowns and comedic elements. A world has to have CONSISTENCY IN ITS OWN INTERNAL LOGIC.
- Of course one should look at the games/movies/books that already exist, analyze what was good and bad and how some of these things can be integrated (or taken out) of the games/movies/books that are developed now. That is what we are doing here all the time in case nobody noticed.
I mentioned that because someone here said that we'll "discuss it after it's released" which is absurd. NOT making the same mistakes is mostly what progress is about.
back to topic:
- good examples for stronghold:
+ NWN2: It has an important role in the game, it is well integrated in the main story, you can have lots of interactions with it, it gives you significant rewards (items, quests, easier battle to defend it)
NWN 2 is actually the only semi-decently made stronghold. And that's where the debate about the stronghold came from initially. Because a lot of people hated that such important content is gated behind it. We are stuck with a stronghold now, so that doesn't really matter. We simply don't have a better-made stronghold to compare he one in NWN2 to. It wasn't amazing and there's heaps that can be improved. The most glaring flaws came from the engine though, it was just clunky to control. Scouring the map for ore was a bit cheap and they can be made into quests, though that's kinda hard.
Nobody said game development is easy, though. I liked how you recruited lieutenants and they had their own personal recruitment quests (Light of Heavens). Companions were a bit neutral about the stronghold though and their involvement with it could be more. I see (well made) companions as exceptionally skilled and/or intelligent individuals who are far above the average person, so their input and help is always appreciated. I also liked the choices between what structure you wanted to build.
The way you sent patrols around was a bit hands-off and pointless, it also wasn't very clear if they were actually doing anything. That could be improved significantly, though at least it gave you a sense that you have armies at your command.
The most important aspect and far above anything else is that it made sense in the context and story of the game, it wasn't handed to you because you were such a special little snowflake, but you had to work for it. The content itself can individually be made poorly or great, but if it doesn't make sense everything falls apart, no matter the content.
+ Some people mentioned Divinity2, but I have not played it
It was simply menu navigation in a pretty dress. It KINDA made sense in the story however, so I'll let it slide. It ISN'T an example of a well-made stronghold mechanic though.
- medium examples:
+ D:OS1: The main story is revealed here. But you unlock one room after the other more or less automatically and each new room is filled with one person (usually a shop). This make the place feel very empty. It would be nice if there are more people in one room and you can have interesting interactions with those chars.
It was also forced into the story. It was evident it was put in there because it was a stretch goal so they had to make up something that can tie it to the story. It wasn't very elegant at the best of times, it was empty, it had a somewhat poorly designed layout, it also felt a little pointless.
- bad examples
+ PoE: It is an obvious money sink and a boring mini game that produces random events.
It wasn't even a money sink because you were swimming in cash anyway. There is ONE thing that is even worse, though. You couldn't ignore it. No matter your refusal to build anything, bandits and undead still attacked and if you auto-resolved it you lost gold. It wasn't that much gold, but it continued to pester you constantly throughout the game about invasions. It was a debacle and I hope it is buried and forgotten about.
Other examples include BG2 - kinda pointless and it only served to bloat the already huge amount of content in that game. It was disconnected from anything else and felt tacked on. Bad example. I think that's about it really. Well, there is the one from Might and Magic, but I don't knwo anything about it because I haven't played it. Housing from MMOs aren't good examples because the logic there is different.
