Larian Studios Forums Divinity: Original Sin 2 Divinity - Original Sin 2 - General We have 1.5Mio, How to make a better stronghold?

That was one of the hard question we got. I say hard because we are so "early" in the design of the game for some mechanics that it's hard to answer without giving spoilers or false hope.

I was in some kind of rush earlier to answer the question because it passed under the radar and we had a lot of other questions to answer so I gave it a go. Now that I have more time, I'll answer it as Jeff the gamer. That means that everything that I say after this is what I would want to have not what we will put in the game

Also, I haven't read all the topic in detail. That's a LOT of stuff to read. I'll still need to read all of it at some point though.
Anyway.

If I take Path of Exile Hideout for example. This is the kind of stuff that I like. Does it fit for DOS? I don't think but....
- You can bring two NPC to your hideout.
-- They give you daily quest
--- This encourage you to come back every day to do a random generated quest related to the NPC
-- They give you a crafting bench that is really helpful
--- The crafting bench is better the more you level your NPC
- You can customize your Hideout with A LOT of assets
-- Path of Exile staff are doing "Hideout of the Week" community highlight so it encourage people to tweak their hideout.

The thing I like here is that a lot of the stuff is linked to some mechanics in the game.
The NPC that you bring are NPC that you help in the game. The daily quests they give you help leveling them, give you loot and experience also. The higher the level the more crafting stuff you can do. The crafting is related to their economic system. The asset that you can put in your hideout are bought by reputation that you get from the NPC themselves by leveling them.
Their hideout is simple enough but linked to some of their mechanics.

For me, I would like to have a hideout linked to mechanics of DOS. Something that encourage you to go back there and help you in the game.
Daily quest? Probably not, "grinding" is not a mechanic we want in DOS.
Customization? Probably, it could be great for some people I guess. It should be linked to something though, or create a money sink maybe. But since the loot are a finite thing is DOS, maybe that's not the greatest idea. (I'm brainstorming like here) If we add random event in the game it could work, I don't know.
NPC in the stronghold? For sure, lots of quest potential.
Maybe we could have an Arena, that you can customize to your liking. You could put traps even maybe and then invite your friend to juke out in it. But it's not THAT great for single player. And so on...

All in all, like I said, what I would really like as a player would be to have mechanics that encourage me to go back that are also link to other core mechanics of the game.
Everything needs to be linked in my opinion.

(That's a longer answer)

Yes, I figured it would maybe be a bit specific
I should have specified I was curious about how you all indeed perceive the hideouts as players, which in turn could give hints on what to expect.
The consensus here is that DOS1 homestead felt a bit forced into the game, Pillars of Eternity stronghold is lame, Divinity 2 tower was pretty nicely tied to the story but maybe felt like a generic hub after that, Skyrim housing is useless mechanic-wise ( but I feel strong RP-wise ), and NWN2 may have the best stronghold. I personnaly didn't play NWN2 at all so I'm not sure why sadly.

Overall I guess people want a meaningful stronhgold, something that would bring contents and interactivity to the game while being properly tied to the story. All at the same time, some people may feel like they are forced to care for the stronghold in order to unlock that gated content. This would distract them from the main game.
In short, it's a hard case of having to balance the optional and the mandatory, and flowlessly integrating the HoE into the game.

Sounds a bit herculean.

Thanks boss :p

I've explained it somewhere around here, but the meat of the matter is that it was integrated into the story (the story being generic to a painful degree not withstanding), it wasn't given to you simply because you were the PC. It was very consistent and coherent. Peasant -> City Guard/Thief -> Squire (to 1 of 2 knights) -> Captain of Crossroad Keep (the SH) -> Knight of the Nine. It was half the game in act 3, the other part being collecting the ritual pieces from various locations. The world reacted to the stronghold and you being its Captain. If you were with the thieves of Amn, they were using the stronghold for smuggling operations etc. The lieutenants were useful and had interesting recruitment quests (especially Light of Heavens) and one of them was actually an ex-companion (very good connection here). You had choice on what you wanted built. It had events (adventuring party for example) that made sense. It was easier to defend if you upgraded it when push came to shove with the Big Bad. etc. etc. I could go on, but suffice to say it is the best SH I can think of.



It is, that's why they made the one in PoE pointless. I have an entire spreadsheet explaining the sides of the debate somewhere around here, but it's basically a catch-22 and you can't win if you include a stronghold :p

I remembered the one in DA:Awakening. You can imagine how trivial it was, if only now I was able to recall it. One of the pillars of the story was that you were the commander of this keep. It was very bare-bones compared to the NWN2 one though and you didn't have any choice regarding what to build. You only arbitrarily collected resources and told a dwarf to upgrade your troops and fortifications and that's it.

Yes, I thought I saw the description of the NWN2 SH somewhere around here - this thread is now in a bit of a mess, and anyway I prefer not to speak out of my ar*e as if I had actually played the game and all ;p

Thanks for the recap !
I'm painfully trying to remember where I saw a decent SH too... Damn memory. I'm too old.

Funny, I rather disliked the NWN2 stronghold and preferred the DOS one. I think it's one of those issues for me where gameplay trumps believability or perfect harmonization with the story. I prefer strongholds that are more like utilities rather than something I'm saddled with, and requiring mechanics of its own that are inherently tied to game progression.

It's better to tie it with the story though, otherwise you get ludonarrative dissonances and in an RPG that's a death sentence. Let me quote myself to explain the whole debacle, that quote is already buried deep inside this thread.



Fun.

How about Dragon Age: Inquisition? I think the place itself worked pretty well there.

We do not speak of that-which-should-not-be-named.

Lacrymas, what do you meant by ludonarrative dissonances when you talk about strongholds in RPGs?

If I understand the (very short ) wikipedia article correct, it means that the game story wants you to do something and the game mechanics force you to do something else.

At the moment I do not remember a good example for that. The Article refers to Bioshock. I have played the game but I quit after some time because it was boring. Maybe it is not a bad game, but I played System Shock2 before and Atlas is pathetic compared to Shodan.

It's basically when the story and the gameplay *contradict* each other. For example you are running from something (source hunters), but you somehow find (unlimited) time and shelter in this stronghold you now have. :p GTA IV - you leave your country (Romania, I think) to escape a life of crime and violence and go to America, where you start living a life of crime and violence. A recent example is Watch_Dogs where the lead character is a vigilante, but actively mows down crowds of innocent people with a car. DA:I - you are the head of an important organization, but are forced to do menial MMOish type tasks :p etc. etc.

What he proposes won't necessarily lead to ludonarrative dissonance, but it's very easy to do exactly that. If you haven't noticed, RPG fans are like a rabid pack of hungry wolves and will latch onto whatever disconnected or badly written piece of RPG you give them. They do have their reasons though :p

EDIT: Actually, the most gratuitous recent examples are Tomb Raider and the Uncharted games. Lara is portrayed as a scared civilian who went into a mini-nervous breakdown when she killed a man in a cutscene, but was savagely murdering everyone else. That's why I call her Lara "Genocide" Croft. Drake was portrayed as a somewhat charismatic every-man, but he was proficient in a number of highly specialized fire arms (in gameplay) and his first instinct when he grabbed an enemy was to kill, instead of incapacitate.

I wonder what they think was wrong in this regard with Bioshock... I'd say they play that side quite well actually.
"Would you kindly ?"

http://clicknothing.typepad.com/click_nothing/2007/10/ludonarrative-d.html

It is a philosophical examination. The same way one might examine Civilization 5 and find out that it encourages and actively rewards (the win states) modern capitalistic thoughts, ideals and goals. In a total and complete sense, you literally don't have any other choice in the matter.

The example from Bioshock is on a more fundamental, philosophically subtle level than the examples I gave. It is way more than just a contradiction between the explicit narrative and the gameplay. Those are just lazy writing which come nowhere near Bioshock.

So a collection of 4 escape prisoners, with goals and motivations to work together despite any conflicts that may occur along the way, are all suppose to just accept exile in a realm where they are literally the only living creatures, abandon everything in Rivellon, and settle down together? Even if the HoE was entirely safe and the time there unlimited, that is hardly a compelling long term option.



Lots of countries have chosen other options in real life, despite the fact that the real world also encourages and actively rewards capitalism.

No? It's not a plot hole, but a ludonarrative dissonance.



Good thing I'm not talking about real life then, but Civ 5 :p

How does it conflict with the story to gain access to a certain location (which may or may not be safe), where you can at least temporarily get away from source hunters?

I was just pointing out that you are criticizing Civ 5 for being realistic, claiming that removes all choice.

OK, lets bring together ludonarrative dissonance, RPG and stronghold in an example.

This is how it is done in PoE:
- Somebody tells you that the owner of a castle could help you.
- You meet him, he tells you where to go next but you have to kill him.
- The ghost in the throne tells you that she wants a new master and you should rebuild the ruin.
- You agree and become the owner of a castle that costs you lots of money even if you ignore it and that does not give you a significant reward.

That makes sense:
- You tell the ghost: "Sorry, I need to find someone and I know where to go next. I need to do it fast or I go insane. Keep your f*** ruin and find another master."

This is how it should be done:
- When she asks you, you have the option to take the stronghold or to refuse it with the words written above. If you refuse you will not pay a single coin for the whole thing but you can return and explore the dungeon if you like.

Note that this refers only to how you get the stronghold. I does not talk about how you can interact with it (which is also bad in PoE.)

Regarding D:OS2
As I have said before, it seem strange how the concept of 4 escaped prisoners and the concept of having a stronghold fit together. I am also sure that the stronghold will not be optional like in the example above. However the hall of echoes is not a normal place (like a castle) and it can be very interesting if done right. I will not judge this before I have played it.


PS:
Hallo Raze . I am surprized somebody is actually reading these walls of text.

It doesn't conflict with the *story* (plot hole), but it can conflict with the *gameplay* (ludonarrative dissonance). I'm not saying that it WILL lead to plot holes and LNDs, it depends on what the context is. I'm saying that it's very easy to fall into these sorts of things if you don't connect everything logically.



I'm not criticizing it, I'm just saying it only rewards achieving capitalistic goals. Look at the win states and see what they value - technological progress, military conquest, cultural domination, economic superiority. These are very, for a lack of better word, American goals. You don't win by eliminating world hunger, or poverty, or by nuclear deproliferation, or having a particularly high standard of living.

Madscientist;
Hello.


Lacrymas;
It sounded like you were saying the HoE would inherently be a case of ludonarrative dissonances. While there are ways it could be implemented poorly, it should be fairly easy (with 7 or more writers and not on a very tight deadline) to add it in a way that is consistent with the plot.

Quoting myself from literally 3 posts ago:



:p

Here's an idea:

The Hall of Echoes will shift to your desire, right? How about it also shifts according to what you did in Rivellon so there will be consequences you can't completely escape from:

Like some of the people you encountered or related to those you encountered and hurt, pissed off or even killed, etc., will try to make their way into the Hall of Echoes. After all, if you can enter that place, why can't another human/dwarf/elf/etc.?

They may not confront you, depending on their personality, but they could also sabotage your place. Or they may do nothing and instead, sell the information about your place of dwelling to someone who really wants to take it over or to hurt you.

Or perhaps this is a bad idea 'cos people generally want a stronghold to be peaceful? After all, I've not played many RPGs.

Edit: A bit more:

In Hall of Echoes, in your dwellings, there could show up books, scrolls, mysterious crystals, etc. that lead to quests that're sometimes provided, based on your reputation or stuff you've done. These quests could be provided directly or indirectly(that's: you find their sources by talking to people, poking around an area, etc.). If directly, well, it's just a message then.