Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity - Original Sin - Enhanced Edition Ranger's are useless now.

The most effective way to play a Ranger before EE was to combine Scoundrel skills and Expert Marksmen. However, even when wasting a Talent point. You can spend 5 points to sneak and 4-5 to attack for a 100% damage increase. When instead you can simply attack twice which is 100% more damage, but with the added benefit of 2 chances to hit, and 2 crit roll chances. All told Ranger's in EE will do about about 50% the damage as the original game.

Most of the Scoundrel skills require a dagger, or require being in melee range, all anti-synergy for Rangers.

With this in mind, Rangers are forced away from Scoundrel skills, but none of the other skills complement Rangers unless you spread your ability points really thin. Since Marksmen and Scoundrel are the only Dex based skill groups.

Sure Rangers have some good arrow abilities, but why bother with those since they require expendable arrows, when you could easily have another mage class. That have better CC, better combo's for elemental skills, and is far better for multi skill learning since Int covers all the magic skills. Lets not forget the addition of grenades that further lessen the need for any of the CC abilities from arrows.

Sneak is useless, there's really no way around it. It some tiny uses, but none that make it worthwhile to put points into. With the death of sneak, comes the death of Rangers.

Wtf are you talkin about ? Check out the new Master skills, like Rain of Arrow and the other one with a cone aoe. They are awesome. I like my ranger very much, and it's not useless at all. It has great dps, long range, and his special arrows are very useful to get out of troubles. I like Karma buff too. I don't need scoundrel skills at all. They are different. Man-at-arms only have their own skill tree, so does the ranger now.

I think calling rangers useless is an exaggeration.

Well, maybe they have great damage, but I think the OP's point is that it doesn't synergize well with anything else on the same character. Or rather, it CAN'T synergize very well with anything else, and they even added insult to injury by removing Rapture and Tactical Retreat ( First Aid was buffed, though ).
At any rate, Marksman lacked mobility and it now doesn't even have any mobility by itself, meaning that when you're in a tight spot you're basically screwed UNLESS you get some Scoundrel skills like invisibility or the disengagement skill whose name eludes me right now.

Where OP is kinda wrong though is that you can still just switch weapons when you're engaged in melee combat, meaning Scoundrel is far from being a useless secondary set of skills.

Basically Marksman requires specialization to be fully viable but it somehow limit your other options and leave you quite dependent of the other party members. Reaching Master skills in itself is a lenghty procedure, making Marksman a gamble during the early game, just as making a backstabbing rogue was in Classic DOS, since you build your character around talents and / or skills you will need time to get.
Not to mention of course you're dealing Piercing damage during early game against ennemies that inherently resist Piercing.

All of this wouldn't be an issue if next to this you wouldn't have Mages capable of a lot of things and now armed with 100% accuracy wands or invincible Men-at-arms warriors capable of dishing almost the same kind of damage while being ultra mobile.
Rangers and Rogues were bullied around in EE, let's face it.

edit : Rangers are far from "useless" though. I wouldn't go as far as say that. It's just they feel a lot like being subpar against everything that other characters can do.

I think what the OP is trying to get at is there is a lack of synergistic skills for ranger.
Essentially a ranger is only really efficient with a pure ranger build.

Though there are a few scoundrel skills which are still useful in my opinion.
Like the ability to teleport around in the battlefield.

I think it's an exaggeration too, but in essence, it is not entirely untrue, either. Rangers lack in both synergy and focus - which they partly did pre-EE, too - but have also been considerably nerfed in the objective sense of the word (as opposed to, say, rogues, which have been nerfed but can still theoretically compensate with synergistic magic or by paying the imposed points tax).

I've been playing on Tactition mode, and if anything, my Ranger is the MOST USEFUL character in my party. A good crossbow + elemental ranger does nearly as much damage by itself as my 2handers, however I do need to find or buy a good crossbow as the crafted ones are absolute trash (the CR5 crossbow does less damage than the CR4 crossbow, so you can never craft a top-tier version), then upgrade the acquired one with bowstring and essence (for double element). My fighters have to rely on crafted 2h axes, as I have yet to find a 2hand weapon in the game that compares, which means they are limited to a single essence upgrade as well.

The main reason the ranger is good though is my massive stock of special arrows. By going to town every hour and/or levelup and buying every single arrowhead, arrow shaft, tooth, antler, drudinae, silver ore, and some of the less-easily crafted raw arrowheads besides, I've been able to acquire stacks of most of the more useful arrows to use with wild abandon.

Poison Cloud arrows in particular are a favorite. They do FULL weapon damage on impact as pierce (many other arrowheads do half damage), plus poison effect, plus the cloud (which many enemies will waste their turns and half their health trying to escape). More importantly, I am able to make HUNDREDS of them. In fact, I've been using them so much I gave my whole party the Zombie perk so that I can 'cloud my own position, turning my ranger into an AoE healer on top of everything else.

I'll agree that the Ranger doesn't really synergize with other class skills. However, I've found that virtually all of the classes have been completely gutted from what they were at the original release. Relying on weapons and items rather than skills, which is what the ranger does best, seems to be a better way to go now.

I really don't think the OP meant that rangers lack synergy, Dr Koin. Case in point, scoundrel is still the most compatible with a ranger, contrary to what OP is saying (dagger requirement is the same for every class and is mostly a no-go, dex requirement is harsher for every classes but ranger), and scoundrel offers back the jump that rangers have lost in their kit (but that's what you said too).

Man at arms have two AOE spells (rush and whirlwind), whereas rangers have 4 (not counting the special arrows).
I think mages' cooldowns were nerfed overall (they still strong nonetheless).
Rangers have the 50% hit buff (easily stacked with power stance), and retain the furtivity/guerilla opening hit. You can still open with a ranger, then bring an out-of-combat mage throwing a fireball on top of it.

Maybe some number adjustement need to be made to balance it all, but the design looks kinda fine?

I think OP wasn't really focused because he was disparaging special arrows for being expendable and in the same breath was praising grenades.

His main point, to me, is the nerf of furtivity.
Well, what else should have been done?

@Luckmann
Weapon ability: rogue (one handed or dualwield) vs ranger (bow or crossbow) > tie
Class kit: rogue (scoundrel) vs ranger (marksmanship) > tie
Opening: rogue (invis or 3+ sneaking/guerilla) vs ranger (1 sneaking/guerilla) > ranger win
Secondary skillset (self buffs at 100%): rogue (marksman lvl 1 for some cure, and/or mage) vs ranger (scoundrel 1-4 depending on your needs, and/or mage) > ranger win
Talent required: rogue (backstabbing, maybe guerilla for opening) vs ranger (maybe guerilla for opening) > ranger win

Nerf to damage going into EE (I'm not really sure because there's a lot of stuff I didn't check, I expect you to add/correct a few things?):
- furtivity nerf for rangers -> cannot spend 25%/20% (bow/crossbow) more AP to gain 100% damage (old guerilla) = 60%/66% nerf (bow/crossbow). If furtivity had been inchanged but only guerilla (50% instead of 100% bonus), then furtivity maxed out would give 20%/25% bonus damage overall instead of 60%/66% (33% nerf only).
- slight power stance nerf for ranger = 5% nerf
- rogues attacks cost 3 AP instead of 2, but I won't count it since I expect weapon damage was adjusted.
- rogues do not do 2 attacks anymore, unless dualwielding. It's a 100% nerf face value. If you invest points in dualwielding, the nerf goes back to 50% (you lose the equivalent of single handed weapon specialization).

So my question is now though, Rogue/Shadowblade or ranger?
Which would do more damage later on? ( I know piecing will be rubbish for most of the 1st act.)
I mean with the lack of sneak and stuff is the rogue still capable at being a swift assassin?
Would it be better on tactician to take a ranger over a rogue?

I am Lone wolfing a tank (dragonknight build) and a non lone wolf partner so i get one companion pref the wizard one.

Though i do worry about perception.

In my opinion, Ranger. Perception isn't too much of a problem (don't need THAT much), and it helps for secrets and traps anyway.

The main thing though is using those special arrows, which means you absolutely MUST get into crafting. An antler or tooth costs 4g, combined with a knife it makes a stun or knockdown arrowhead, both of which are extremely useful (CC being the way to win 99% of all hard fights). Drudinae+arrowhead+shaft for another ~15g gets you a charming arrow, which is by far the most OP thing in the early game (turn your enemies CCers against your other enemies). Collect enough arrowheads and shafts and you have virtually unlimited poison, slow, and poisoncloud arrows combining them with ooze/oil barrels, or other poison arrowheads.

A special arrow always costs 4ap to fire, even if you are using a +2 level 7ap crossbow, and it still derives the damage from the weapon used to fire it. Special arrows also always hit regardless of accuracy chance and can effectively be targetted through smoke.

Oh, and before you think you can do everything with grenades instead of arrows, grenades are a LOT more expensive, the materials for making the best ones are a lot rarer even if you have the gold, their damage is lower and their effect chance is half that of an arrow. Not to mention you need 2 different talents for aim and distance which still isn't equivalent.

Personally, I would recommend taking Bairdotr for free and making the mage your second MC. She's got good starting talents and attributes and only a few "wasted" skillpoints (she ends up being your designated loremaster). For what it's worth, you also CAN re-roll her skills at the demon, but you CANNOT reroll Jahan or any henchmen.

I just found out Pheonix Dive seem to have disappeared from the game too ? Meaning only Cloack and Dagger remains for pure "self teleportation" ? What about the ... how was it called... Feather something spell, which was a damage free Teleportation ? I also can't seem to find it in the tables anymore, but I'm not sure my source was up to date.

Oh well, I'll just stick with Ranger. I dabbled a bit into dual wanding which is powerful but I don't like the fact it triggers elemental combos, which may be dangerous in a few tight fights throughout the game. I thought of going back the Rogue way, but the nerf to sneak is probably "worse" than my initial views on Ranger.

It's somehow sad : I'm hyped for none of the archetypes and falling back on Marksman because it may very well be the LESS uninteresting one for me. It still, at least, deal a lot of damage with the right setup, and being at a distance is always nice.
And I always liked archers anyway. =)

So.. if what I am reading is correct.....

Marksman doesn't require going into many other skills like Man at arms and Scoundral, correct?

And they aren't completely terrible?

It sounds like you will be dealing a good chunk of damage, but with nothing else to back you up, you will need more than a helping hand from your teammates. Dropping a few points into Scoundrel or Man at arms for either Invisibility / Cloak and Dagger / Become Air / Fast Track or Battering Ram / Crushing Fist still sounds mandatory to escape those tight spots you WILL find yourself in, especially with the surprise new mobs in Tactician.

Also, the general consensus is that, and it may come as a surprise, investing points in Perception / Hyeropia or using the Ranged Precision Stance may actually be counter productive. Skills, special arrows, and crowd-controlled mobs always offer 100% chance to hit so just Control all of them and unleash hell. With a strong emphasis on damage and crit, Marksman seem to be a totally viable option as far as Damage Dealing goes.
It's just that it is all quite silly and now lacks a few utility SKILLS ( as opposed to arrows ). I mean, who in their right mind would make a ranged character and find out that ignoring bonuses to Chance to Hit / accuracy is a better way to go ?

I wouldn't say mandatory. I've been getting by just fine in tactician with none of that, though battering ram does sound like a good idea. For the most part, anything that actually reaches my Ranger is quickly CCed by her. I did once have her stuck in a corner unable to CC the actual threats on the battlefield, so I do see a point to Battering Ram just to break through.

Ranged precision/farseer are both useful. With +80% combined chance to hit for 4 turns at the cost of only 2ap, even if your enemies are NOT CCed you can still guarantee hits with no PER. DEX is mandatory though just to equip high level weapons.

Now the most important question... bow or crossbow lol

Also what would be good Talents for a Ranger?
Obviously bully, but what about Elemental ranger? etc

Useful, yes, it's just that you probably want to CC everyone in Tactician anyway, or just get that Bully proccing. Apparently damage modifiers are multiplicative, so a heavily modified crit with bully will apparently go a very, VERY, long way ( though I just speak out of examples of damage I read here and there ).
I still see a real point to having accuracy but it's probably best to have very high damage =) And anyway with a high score in Marksman you probably can get all you can eat.



Weapon, I'd argue is up to preferences. Crossbows seem to have the best crit modifiers so may end up having the best rough damage output, while bows are generally "faster" to shoot. I don't have any Master skills so I can't really argue for now !

As far as Talents go...
Bully, yes, and I'd say this is the only mandatory talent, which is somehow good.
Glass Canon if you think you have a good handle on everything would probably be amazing. ( got Lone Wolf so I can't get GC ).
Arrow Recovery maybe, now that special arrows may be a lot more useful ( I barely shot any in Classic DOS ! ).
Hyperopia if you feel like getting better accuracy from a distance and switching to a melee weapon doesn't bother you when cornered.

Overall I'd recommend taking either defensive talents like everything that make you immune to some bad CC effect ( lighting rod, stand your ground ) or Stench or Sidestep.
Or just nothing and exchange them for ability points later.

Hyperopia isn't a good choice for a talent, since you can easily max out accuracy through farseer/precision on the rare occation that you actually NEED accuracy at all.

Glass cannon doesn't seem worth it to me post-nerf. 4ap for 50% hp? It used to be double ap, which could be as many as 12 per turn extra.

Elemental Ranger is another good choice. Blood counts as a tenebrium surface for damage btw, so even if you aren't using spells you still get bonuses that way. Doesn't work so well on enemies that "bleed" elements that heal them, like poison, but usually it's just free damage no matter your attack strategy.

Stench is probably pretty great. It's hard to tell really how much is the enemy avoiding me and how much is my ability to control the enemy.

FYI Bairdotr comes with Stench, Bully, and Arrow Recovery to start with, all good choices and stench on a non-PC is basically no downside.

Trading Talents for Skills is very VERY bad now. It used to give you 3 skills for 1 talent. Now it's one, but it still costs 3 skills to gain one attribute. Bad trade.

TBH I'm clearly not convinced by Hyperopia either, but I reckon a few people would like to improve their Sniping skills, so it's always a possibility. I know GC was heavily nerfed but 4ap MAY still be nice - it's another special arrow or skill or bow attack and when you manage to stay far from ennemies or put the tanks between you and them, it MAY give something nice. I think it's too big a gamble but a few people mentionned GC as a pretty powerful option despite the penalty =)

Thanks for the feedback on Elemental Ranger, though. I've been wondering what is was worth. I totally didn't know blood would trigger Tenebrium damage which sounds good !

Now what about Arrow Recovery? It sounds like a pretty nice choice too. I'm not sure it would be a priority but then again, taken too late in the game it may just be helpful anymore thanks to crafting.

Arrow recovery really depends on how anal you are about the arrow supply. Doing what I'm doing and buying up every raw arrow material in the game every restock I probably have way more arrows than I could actually use even without Recovery. Still, I'm going to such lengths already to accumulate I'm not going to say no to a talent that functionally gives me even more arrows.

Elemental ranger only procs on regular attacks, not special arrows or skills. On the one hand that means the skill doesn't really add up to that big a damage boost, but on the other it's basically "free" damage, plus you have the ability to prevent it from occurring when the enemy is on a healing surface.

And I will admit that my ranger (with stench) takes little enough damage that I could PROBABLY get away with GC, especially if I'm not averse to resurrecting her once in a while. It's just that it seems a pretty high cost for 4ap, something to only be chosen if you are really absolutely sure you don't need the HP rather than as a generic offensive boost.

Talents have a weird behavior post-5 (even worse post-6 generally).

Bugs (?) and strange stuff:

A sixth point in leadership gives allies different bonuses depending on the obedient trait.
- Obedient > gives nothing
- Not obedient > gives +1 bodybuilding, hit chance goes from 10% to 15%, crit chance goes from 3% to 5%
Seventh point in leadershit is useless.

With 5 in crossbow, my hunter sits at 45% crit (including karma) and 300% crit damage.
A sixth point in crossbow doesn't improve the crit multiplier and gives only 2 crit (from 25% to 27%).
Crit on gear and the ability give a combined total improvement of 0.45 * 3 + 0.55 = 1.9.

Bows, the sixth point gives only 5%, for a total of 55%.
Without the 25% crit bonus, the comparative would be (0.2 * 2 + 0.8) * 1.5 = 1.8.

For mages, you can only diminish cooldown by 4 turns max apparently (I'm at 31).
Now, for rangers and scoundrels skills, dexterity reduces cooldown, but by 2 max apparently (I'm at 25). No reduction for the master skills I took (the AOEs).
And for Man at arms, 2 aswell but I have the taunt reduced by 3 turns (? this spell doesn't work anyway).
And formula has changed.


Glass canon I don't know. It it worth to sacrifice half you const to get something worse than 8 speed? If you are happy to stand at 8 constitution total in your game (which I aint), even then it's better to invest 8 points in speed than having to spend 8 more const to end up at 16 const (and the same HP in the end).