Larian Studios Forums Divinity: Original Sin 2 Divinity - Original Sin 2 - General In defense of Rock Paper Scissors

Hello, this is my first post..

I have seen some people complaining about the Rock/Paper/Scissors mechanic and even asking for it to be removed from the game. Their main reason being because it's "too random".

But I'm sure it's not random at all! I had many successes reading the mind of the AI and beating it. It's kind of a logic thing, in fact there may be some clever coding behind it.

Just googling I read some stuff about the story of the game, and found there is even a programming contest:

http://www.rpscontest.com/

From the site:
"Although rock-paper-scissors (RPS) may seem like a trivial game, it actually involves the hard computational problem of temporal pattern recognition. This problem is fundamental to the fields of machine learning, artificial intelligence, and data compression. In fact, it might even be essential to understanding how human intelligence works."

So, I definitely hope Larian keep RPS for D:OS2!

Honestly, if you can beat the AI just by understanding how they will play their turn, that's even MORE of a reason that it should go because then it has nothing to do with your charisma skill but how well you can take advantage of the bad AI. I've heard people say you can beat the AI every time if you choose right (I think because there's no tie), but haven't quite understood how to do that myself (haven't looked into it too hard.)

It's not going to be in D:OS2 anyway because 4-character RPS wouldn't work (or would be really tedious).

RPS is an interesting if subtle game for sure, but I don't think Larian is really going to develop a sophisticated enough AI for it to actually take advantage of the possibilities of RPS.

Also, a big problem with any kind of random checks, or even semi-random, like a smart RPS AI, is it's hard to resist savescumming them, especially if it's only the occasional thing (unlike, say, savescumming every time you try and apply CC.) Things like honor mode can stop this (though not even sure if that autosaves after a dialog), but hardly feasible to expect everyone to play honor mode on a 60+ hour game. Not sure what Larian will go with for D:OS2, especially for 4-character decisions, but maybe they'll do a different kind of part luck/part skill game that can include 2-4 characters. It'd be cool if it actually sort of related to charisma, too, like it was a sort of word-game thing that somehow represented arguments.

This is basically what Swen told during DOS2 kickstarter. That's why he has decided to remove it. It just doesn't work with 4 players.

Normally I do suggestions rather then tell developers what to do... But in this case

What you guys NEED to do though is allow characters to state their objection but relent.

"Hey I don't think killing this person is a good idea, but whatever..."

That way I can, in character, not chose to fight every time (or give long back and forths) just because I chose a different side.

Is it going to be a roll where the highest # (including bonuses) wins?

Don't worry guys, I'm pretty sure we will have something to replace the RPS mini-game. Whatever it may be

norD: I didn't know Swen said there will be no RPS in D:OS2

What do you guys think will be the best approach to handle party decisions? All charisma based? That way the most charismatic character would always win...

Maybe another mini game, like dice or drawing straws? Or maybe what Neonivek says, let players argue but not forcing a direct outcome? Devs have a lot to think about this..

The volume control, of course.

"This one goes up to 11."

Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock?

No, this system is not good. Randomness should be kept to things like equipment and opening boxes. I seriously doubt there is any logical code to RPS because it is not worth doing (considering you can improve odds with charm skill). If you are winning consistently and putting nothing into charm, its likely just luck or a lot of reloading.

NPCs do not use full randomness but a set of about 6 strategies. That means you can win without fail if you guessed right. However, strategies sometimes fit to their respective character; some NPCs even seem to change strategies. That's why RPS was not as bad as you make it out to be.

5 words: Rock, Paper, Scizzors, Lizard, Spock.

I'm serious; the RPS minigame to resolve conversation conflicts is a good idea, but I think it just needs to be expanded more. Having just three options becomes too easy to predict sometimes. I'm also not a big fan of the "first side to win three" format, and not sure I like how NPCs can overrule the player sometimes.

Just my 2 cents.

It doesn't help that D:OS often was rather... All in when it came to this game

"You will do this for free!" *RSP*
"No!"
"Uhhh... well I guess I have to pay you"
"NOPE! you failed the game!"

It actually made a mission unbeatable (without killing people) because you couldn't just change your answer... something that people would do normally if they couldn't convince someone of the much more convenient approach.

The problem I have is with NPC's. The AI is the issue. When dealing with other humans, I don't think its horrible. But when dealing with the AI where it completely discards your stats and wins regardless, over and over and over again, I think its a horrible implementation. The only way I can win RPS in its current form against AI is to auto roll. Even then, I have lost charisma "fights" when I outnumber them 8-3. That shouldn't happen IMHO. Again, I'm only talking about AI disputes (NPC) and not internal party issues.

Even worse were the times where trivial issues turned into a fight simply for losing the challenge. "can we trade?". Fail. FIGHT!!!! there was some common sense lacking in some of those NPC scenarios.

I like the idea of there being some randomness involved. Even the most charismatic character isn't going to be perfect.

Rock Paper Scissors is MUCH better than in Fallout where it's just like "Here's your success chance." By doing Rock Paper Scissors, you actually feel like your high charisma score matters, even if you actually lose. (I've not had any major issues beating the AI at RPS. I win about as often as I should.)

But I agree that if they're going to have more than 2 people joining the minigame, then they're going to need to completely replace it. I don't think that adding Lizard Spock will be enough to fix it.

fair play

I'm honestly glad they're removing it because my boyfriend sits next to me while we're playing and it was hard not to look over there. XD

But yeah I can see why it would be even more of a nightmare with 4 players.